Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2821

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Even after all that has happened in Gaza, 57% of Gazans still view the October 7th attack positively. That this is lower than the 73% positive view in the West Bank belies the concern trolling assertion that the conflict will only further radicalize Palestinians, as if they could actually hate Jews any more than they already do. Support for the killing of Jewish civilians is arguably higher among Palestinians than it was among Germans during WWII. The Nazis at least felt they had to make some effort to hide it, whereas it’s a matter of pride and a source of legitimacy for Hamas.
    Similar to how Israeli Jews celebrate killing of Palestinian civilians and how they tried to storm a station to defend Israeli soldiers caught on tape raping Palestinian detainees. Put them under the same conditions that Israel has put Palestinians under for decades and see how more widespread that becomes. You are, however, being deceptive by equating support for October 7 attacks with a blanket attack on civilians. Palestinians clearly do not buy your narrative and all the proven Israeli lies (like the 40 beheaded babies). Suffering under a decades old siege and constant attacks by Israel, they likely see October 7 where Hamas breached the Israeli siege targeting Israeli military bases and outposts, as well as Israeli settlements that have been exclusively established after 1948, with even some over older Palestinian settlements, as a legitimate effort. One one side you are speculating about Palestinian support for targeting civilians by people who are struggling to find a loaf of bread, on the other side we have people supporting killing of Palestinian civilians from their poolside.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #2822

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Even after all that has happened in Gaza, 57% of Gazans still view the October 7th attack positively. That this is lower than the 73% positive view in the West Bank belies the concern trolling assertion that the conflict will only further radicalize Palestinians, as if they could actually hate Jews any more than they already do. Support for the killing of Jewish civilians is arguably higher among Palestinians than it was among Germans during WWII. The Nazis at least felt they had to make some effort to hide it, whereas it’s a matter of pride and a source of legitimacy for Hamas.
    It is almpst as though 'hating the jewish is a big part of [their] culture'...

  3. #2823

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The West Bank Palestinians are the ones under Israeli occupation, so it's hardly surprising that their attitudes are harsher.
    That may be a factor, but that would mean occupation causes more hostility than full-scale war.

    About 78% of Palestinians in the West Bank live in areas under Palestinian Authority administration where the vast majority have no contact with Israelis on a regular basis. Roughly 12% of them live in East Jerusalem, where they have the same rights and standard of living as Israeli Arabs who are generally not hostile. Only about 10% of them live in Area C, which is where the back and forth between Palestinians and extremist settlers usually goes down.

    The harsher attitudes of Palestinians in the West Bank compared to Gaza doesn’t translate into greater terrorism. Although, this is hard to compare because Israel has complete control of any potential smuggling routes for weapons, and the Palestinian Authority cooperates to an extent with Israel, mostly by informing on more hardline rivals.

    I assume the difference in attitudes mostly comes from the fact that Gazans have to live with consequences of major escalations, whereas the majority of West Bank Palestinians don’t, except in specific cases, like those who had permits to work in Israel that were cancelled after October 7th.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Similar to how Israeli Jews celebrate killing of Palestinian civilians and how they tried to storm a station to defend Israeli soldiers caught on tape raping Palestinian detainees.
    False equivalency. Far-right Jewish extremists defended soldiers arrested for torturing a Hamas militant who is believed to have tortured, murdered, and raped Israeli civilians, because far-right Jewish extremists are mostly dumb and can’t understand why that sort of revenge is unacceptable and undermines Israel’s legitimacy and national standing. Then again, most far-right Jewish extremists are from families who came from Arab countries, so cultural influence may play a role.

    The correct course of action, in my opinion (which is probably shared by most Israelis) is that such Palestinian war criminals should be tried and executed if found guilty. Many have already confessed to their crimes, because they’re proud of them. Although, naturally this would also cause a great international outcry among the Palestinians' supposed advocates, who in their bigotry of low expectations act as if Arabs are little monkey children who can’t help but to act in such an indiscriminately and joyously homicidal way because of their circumstances. Strangely, Jews who were subjected to an actual genocide didn’t act that way.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  4. #2824
    Kyriakos's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    You forget that jews were subject to genocide for a few years, under Germany. Palestinians have to live with this trash for decades.
    It's almost as if occupying them and denying them a state is the cause of their behavior(similar to kurds). Or you can see cultural/genetic angles if it reassures you.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #2825

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    You forget that jews were subject to genocide for a few years, under Germany. Palestinians have to live with this trash for decades.
    It's almost as if occupying them and denying them a state is the cause of their behavior(similar to kurds). Or you can see cultural/genetic angles if it reassures you.
    Muslim Arabs regularly commit the same types of atrocities against religious minorities (and sometimes each other) all across the Middle East and North Africa, and have been doing so (including to Jews) long before the state of Israel even existed. The Yazidis didn’t do anything to provoke what they were subjected to, and despite what you might think if you only pay attention to Western media, the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict has only constituted a tiny portion of the regional violence over the years.

    The Palestinians have legitimate grievances, but that’s no excuse. Their maladaptive reaction to their circumstances only makes things worse for them. You’re also projecting a foreign view on them. You probably have an idea what “the occupation” means, but in the mainstream Palestinian view, the existence of Israel is by itself an occupation. For the Islamists in particular, there can be no Jewish sovereignty in Dar al-Islam.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  6. #2826

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    False equivalency. Far-right Jewish extremists defended soldiers arrested for torturing a Hamas militant who is believed to have tortured, murdered, and raped Israeli civilians, because far-right Jewish extremists are mostly dumb and can’t understand why that sort of revenge is unacceptable and undermines Israel’s legitimacy and national standing. Then again, most far-right Jewish extremists are from families who came from Arab countries, so cultural influence may play a role.

    The correct course of action, in my opinion (which is probably shared by most Israelis) is that such Palestinian war criminals should be tried and executed if found guilty. Many have already confessed to their crimes, because they’re proud of them. Although, naturally this would also cause a great international outcry among the Palestinians' supposed advocates, who in their bigotry of low expectations act as if Arabs are little monkey children who can’t help but to act in such an indiscriminately and joyously homicidal way because of their circumstances. Strangely, Jews who were subjected to an actual genocide didn’t act that way.
    More like an inconvenient equivalency. That's obvious from your attempts to limit the scope of what I pointed out, obfuscate it with irrelevant/unknown details and even try to shift the blame away from Israeli Jews to Arabs in general. You clearly walk the line of accusing every Palestinians for being a terrorist since you do not know if any of the detained Palestinians have anything to do with Hamas or any kind of war crime. Their offense? Being a Palestinian male of fighting age, though, rape cases are not limited to Palestinian males. We have had undeniable war criminals in this case tough. Many from the Israeli side. Would you like them to be executed as well? I doubt so. How Jews acted after the Holocaust was not a case of turning the other cheeks as well though. It helps to have multiple world powers backing you up of course but the way many of them acted in the Levant was no different to how Hamas acts today. In many cases its been outright worse. I understand it doesn't conform to your whitewashed version of history but we do know better.
    The Armenian Issue

  7. #2827
    Kyriakos's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Muslim Arabs regularly commit the same types of atrocities against religious minorities (and sometimes each other) all across the Middle East and North Africa, and have been doing so (including to Jews) long before the state of Israel even existed. The Yazidis didn’t do anything to provoke what they were subjected to, and despite what you might think if you only pay attention to Western media, the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict has only constituted a tiny portion of the regional violence over the years.

    The Palestinians have legitimate grievances, but that’s no excuse. Their maladaptive reaction to their circumstances only makes things worse for them. You’re also projecting a foreign view on them. You probably have an idea what “the occupation” means, but in the mainstream Palestinian view, the existence of Israel is by itself an occupation. For the Islamists in particular, there can be no Jewish sovereignty in Dar al-Islam.
    If Palestine is allowed to form (including some underground or other passage to Gaza) it will then be other peoples' problem. Most likely it will get into trouble with Jordan. Israel has been too shortsighted with keeping this issue frozen and aspiring to eating up more territory (imo it's not worth it, even for historical areas like the mountain temple etc).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  8. #2828

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    That may be a factor, but that would mean occupation causes more hostility than full-scale war.

    About 78% of Palestinians in the West Bank live in areas under Palestinian Authority administration where the vast majority have no contact with Israelis on a regular basis. Roughly 12% of them live in East Jerusalem, where they have the same rights and standard of living as Israeli Arabs who are generally not hostile. Only about 10% of them live in Area C, which is where the back and forth between Palestinians and extremist settlers usually goes down.
    Because the Gazans weren't in a full-scale war until last year. The West Bank population have been under occupation for much longer.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Strangely, Jews who were subjected to an actual genocide didn’t act that way.
    The Palestinians would probably claim otherwise.

  9. #2829

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    If Palestine is allowed to form (including some underground or other passage to Gaza) it will then be other peoples' problem.
    This is far-fetched to say the least, considering it would put all of Israel’s major population centers as close to a Palestinian state as the towns overrun on October 7th were to Gaza. The difference being that the Palestinians would hold the high ground enabling them direct line of sight to target anywhere within these population centers. All of Israel’s major north to south transportation arteries and its international airport would be within mortar range. Currently, Israelis in the densely populated center have 90 seconds to get to a bomb shelter when a rocket launch is detected. This would change to 15 seconds or less, which would mean that any Palestinian militant group, whether supported by the internationally recognized government of Palestine or not, would have the ability to easily shut down Israel’s entire economy and snipe Israelis at will. There would be no safe place left to even evacuate the Israeli population to. The nearly inevitable result of such an arrangement would be a response that leaves the West Bank looking like Gaza does now. There is no Palestinian government with both the will and the legitimacy to control terrorism from within, and it is hard to imagine one existing within the foreseeable future.

    That said, I agree that settlements in the West bank, in particular those which make a potential Palestinian state discontiguous are unhelpful at best, and certainly have a negative effect on Israel’s international standing, but I don’t believe they are the real obstacle to a negotiated settlement. I think most Israelis don’t care much about the West Bank, other than the Old City in Jerusalem, and would still support the notion of a two-state solution if they believed it was at all plausible to achieve without the West Bank turning into another Gaza.

    Regarding Jordan, the maintenance of the Hashemite dynasty in power is a security priority for Israel, any revolution would inevitably be dominated by Islamists hostile to Israel.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    Because the Gazans weren't in a full-scale war until last year. The West Bank population have been under occupation for much longer.
    Looking into it further, it seems that prior to the current war, support for armed struggle rather than negotiations was consistently higher in Gaza compared to the West Bank.

    March 2023:
    When asked about the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation and building an independent state, the public split into three groups: 54% chose armed struggle (55% in the Gaza Strip and 54% in the West Bank), 18% negotiations, and 23% popular resistance.
    September 2022:
    When asked about the most effective means of ending the Israeli occupation and building an independent state, the public split into three groups: 41% chose armed struggle (50% in the Gaza Strip and 35% in the West Bank), 30% negotiations, and 24% popular resistance.
    March 2018:
    Support for a return to an armed intifada is higher in the Gaza Strip (67%) compared to the West Bank (39%)
    September 2018:
    The preference for reaching a peace agreement with Israel is higher in the West Bank (49%) compared to the Gaza Strip (26%)
    July 2018:
    A large minority of 39% thinks that negotiation is the most effective means of establishing a Palestinian… The belief that negotiation is most effective is higher in the West Bank (41%) compared to the Gaza Strip (35%)
    I didn’t see any answer to any of the poll that would suggest West Bank Palestinians under occupation held more hardline views than Palestinians in Gaza, while almost all suggest the opposite (the difference in the most recent one was within the margin of error). It seems to me that October 7th and the subsequent Israeli response has increased Hamas’s standing and support for war in the West Bank, which was one of Hamas’s goals. Whereas the 57% of Gazans who continue to see October 7th as the right decision isn’t that different from the 55% who supported armed conflict prior to war, presumably because they have to personally deal with the consequences. During the temporary truce following the prisoner/hostage exchange, support for October 7th rose to 71% in Gaza. I believe at that point it was because the Gazans saw Hamas as victorious which made it worth the hardship in their minds.

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    The Palestinians would probably claim otherwise.
    Sure, but Palestinian popular opinion is irrelevant to any factual assessment of how Jews reacted to Germans during and after the Holocaust. Palestinians believe all sorts of objectively false nonsense about Jews. Abass, the leader of the most moderate Palestinian faction, wrote a book claiming that the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis to carry out the Holocaust. 78% of Palestinians believe that Jews cause most of the world’s wars.

    There are all sorts of conspiracy theories about Jews/Israelis among Palestinians (and Arabs and Muslims in general), but this is my favorite genre:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 










    At least in Turkey, animals accused of working for Israel are allowed due process.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #2830
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Israel didn't exist when UN Resolution 181 was voted. The subsequent Jewish actions directly contradicted the resolutions terms ever since as well.
    What would become the government of Israel after the declaration of independence accepted the resolution. There's no obligation to unilaterally act by the terms of a resolution that was rejected by the other side, and as such never came into force.

    Probably because I didn't give you such a time frame. You made it up to pointlessly rely on it. The time frame I gave you instead covered the time between October 7 and when Hamas started openly drilling for the attack (going back as early as 2020).
    You were talking about 'at least a year before the attack'. Then everything you provide is outside of this timeframe. Are you banking on me not bothering to go back and quote you or something?
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Israel did know it was coming. At least a year before the attack.
    They are not contradictory in any way. You're comparing an end game with a tactic. Keeping Palestinian Authority away from Gaza with an Hamas empowered by Israel allows Gaza to be kept as a place of conflict and further enable it to become inhabitable. You need better premises. You can rely on obfuscation only to a certain degree.
    It directly contradicts. Are you saying Israel is building up Hamas to then destroy it..? This makes 0 sense.
    And what even is the point of making Gaza inhospitable? Why do that?


    You know very well the amplitude of differences those cases have with that of what we're witnessing today.
    No, I don't. Please elaborate.
    Ask a question that relies on intelligent points, not idiocy.
    Oh, the irony.

    They can and they're usually charged when they do. Hundreds of them held hostage by Israelis are not. Many don't even know what their crimes are.

    Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?
    I've already condemned administrative detention. Not just palestinians are targeted by its use, however. To quote the times of Israel: "The tool is typically used when authorities have intelligence tying a suspect to a crime but do not have enough evidence for charges to stand in a court of law. Its use against settler extremists has become more common as of late, as many of them maintain their right to silence and refuse to cooperate with an investigation. Moreover, police are slower to arrive to the scene of crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank and often fail to collect evidence in time, if at all."

    Ismail Haniyeh was not the leader of Hamas. He was the leader of the political bureau with little to no knowledge of October 7 attacks and was actively involved in hostage negotiations as an envoy. The memory he leaves is that of Israel killing the negotiator with little to no involvement with the attack on Israel.
    The chairman of the political bureau of Hamas IS the leader of Hamas. What a weak attempt to exonerate a terrorist leader.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/w...iran-bomb.html
    What's next, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was an austere religious scholar?



    Or I was referring to a different reconciliation effort that I found to be concrete? You yourself relying on one that was made 10 years ago is not exactly a good alternative for you to bank on though. Clearly, its not something that happens plenty before as you claimed.
    The 2014 agreement led to the creation of a Hamas-Fatah unity government that was only officially dissolved in 2019 (that's only 5 years ago). You don't find this effort to be concrete? lol.

  11. #2831

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    And what even is the point of making Gaza inhospitable? Why do that?
    Do you know that ethnical cleansing is? By making Gaza inhabitable, Israel forces the Palestinians to either die in the region or flee to another country, thus removing them from that area. It's clear as water, but of course that you will deny it.

  12. #2832

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    What would become the government of Israel after the declaration of independence accepted the resolution. There's no obligation to unilaterally act by the terms of a resolution that was rejected by the other side, and as such never came into force.
    There is if you want to claim that they accepted the resolution. Otherwise, its a pointlessly stupid exercise. In reality, every action of Israel went against that resolution.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You were talking about 'at least a year before the attack'. Then everything you provide is outside of this timeframe. Are you banking on me not bothering to go back and quote you or something?
    I was banking on you knowing what "at least" refers to as it lays out a bare minimum of one year, not maximum. You are also further confusing yourself on what you were responding to. I laid out a number of actions of Hamas as it prepared for October 7. Drills on assaulting towns, tanks and border crossings. These started happening out in the open from from 2020. These were easy targets. I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by digging this hole for yourself though. This has been an awfully long exercise for you to deflect from acknowledging a bad argument of yours.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It directly contradicts. Are you saying Israel is building up Hamas to then destroy it..? This makes 0 sense.
    And what even is the point of making Gaza inhospitable? Why do that?
    You need to be able to explain how they contradict. Israel did build up Hamas against the alternative to battle with it and eventually destroy it. It makes a lot of sense if you don't rely on obfuscating every little inconvenient point. Making Gaza inhospitable paves the way for Palestinians to leave the area in mass so that Israelis can come in and settle.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I've already condemned administrative detention. Not just palestinians are targeted by its use, however. To quote the times of Israel: "The tool is typically used when authorities have intelligence tying a suspect to a crime but do not have enough evidence for charges to stand in a court of law. Its use against settler extremists has become more common as of late, as many of them maintain their right to silence and refuse to cooperate with an investigation. Moreover, police are slower to arrive to the scene of crimes against Palestinians in the West Bank and often fail to collect evidence in time, if at all."
    Nice deflection but deceptive. Settlers are tried under civil law while Palestinians are governed under miliary law. I love how you didn't actually linked the article. Likely because the article itself points out that administrative detention is only used against a handful of settlers while we're talking about hundreds, if not thousands, of Palestinians. The real issue is random Palestinians put under administrative detention and abused for simply being a Palestinian.

    Israel/OPT: Horrifying cases of torture and degrading treatment of Palestinian detainees amid spike in arbitrary arrests
    Since 7 October, Israeli forces have detained more than 2,200 Palestinian men and women, according to the Palestinian Prisoners’ Club. According to Israeli human rights organization HaMoked between 1 October and 1 November, the total number of Palestinians held in administrative detention, without charge or trial, rose from 1,319 to 2,070.
    Amnesty International has for decades documented widespread torture by Israeli authorities in places of detention across the West Bank. However, over the past four weeks, videos and images have been shared widely online showing gruesome scenes of Israeli soldiers beating and humiliating Palestinians while detaining them blind-folded, stripped, with their hands tied, in a particularly chilling public display of torture and humiliation of Palestinian detainees.
    How Israel jails hundreds of Palestinians without charge
    Yazen had been held under "administrative detention" - a longstanding security policy, inherited from the British, that allows the Israeli state to imprison people indefinitely without charge, and without presenting any evidence against them.
    "They have a secret file," Yazen said. "They don't tell you what's in it."
    He was back at home because he was among the 180 Palestinian children and women released from prison by Israel in the recent exchange for hostages held by Hamas in Gaza.
    When 16-year-old Osama Marmesh was detained, he was pulled off the street and into an unmarked car, he said. So for the first 48 hours of Osama's detention, his father Naif had no idea where he was. "You call everyone you know to ask if they have seen your son," Naif said. "You don't sleep."
    Osama asked repeatedly during his arrest for the charges against him, he said, but was told each time to "shut up".
    When 17-year-old Musa Aloridat was arrested, in a 5am raid on his family home, Israeli forces pulled apart the bedroom he shared with his two younger brothers and fired a bullet into the wardrobe, smashing the glass, he said.
    "They took him away in his underwear," Musa's father Muhannad said, holding up a picture on his phone. "For three days we knew nothing."
    Neither Yazen, Osama nor Musa, nor their parents or lawyers, were shown any evidence against them during their months of detention. When Israel published lists of the detainees to be released in the recent exchanges, in the column detailing the charges, against Yazen, Osama and Musa's names there was only the vague line, "Threat to the security of the area".
    Another version of the list said Yazen and Musa were suspected of being affiliated with Palestinian militant groups. When Osama was released, he was handed a brief charge sheet which said that on two occasions, months earlier, he had thrown a stone, "half the size of his palm", towards Israeli security positions.
    In the end, Yazen, Osama and Musa spent between four and seven months in prison. All three said that conditions had been relatively comfortable until the Hamas attack on 7 October, when their bedsheets, blankets, extra clothes and most of their food rations were removed, and all communication with the outside world was cut off, in what they described as collective punishment for the attack.
    They are hostages.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The chairman of the political bureau of Hamas IS the leader of Hamas. What a weak attempt to exonerate a terrorist leader.
    https://www.nytimes.com/2024/08/01/w...iran-bomb.html
    What's next, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was an austere religious scholar?
    You yourself presented Sinwar as always having the last say earlier. You need to make up your mind.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The 2014 agreement led to the creation of a Hamas-Fatah unity government that was only officially dissolved in 2019 (that's only 5 years ago). You don't find this effort to be concrete? lol.
    No, not 2019. 2015, a year after it was formed. Over 9 years ago. Even 5 years timeline doesn't help your case of these happening frequently.
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #2833

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Sure, but Palestinian popular opinion is irrelevant to any factual assessment of how Jews reacted to Germans during and after the Holocaust.
    There was one case of a Jewish group plotting revenge, but most of them simply weren't in a position to do anything. If they had been that may have been different.

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Palestinians believe all sorts of objectively false nonsense about Jews. Abass, the leader of the most moderate Palestinian faction, wrote a book claiming that the Zionists collaborated with the Nazis to carry out the Holocaust. 78% of Palestinians believe that Jews cause most of the world’s wars.
    To be honest, you'd get similar rhetoric about 'the enemy people' from a lot of places.

  14. #2834
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Israel accepts 'bridging proposal' for ceasefire deal - Blinken

    US Secretary of State Antony Blinken says Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has agreed to an American "bridging proposal" for a ceasefire deal in Gaza. It is now up to Hamas to agree, Mr. Blinken added.
    Biden added: “even if Hamas accepts the proposal, negotiators will spend the coming days working on “clear understandings on implementing the agreement.”
    A bridge to hell.
    ---
    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Do you know that ethnical cleansing is? By making Gaza inhabitable, Israel forces the Palestinians to either die in the region or flee to another country, thus removing them from that area. It's clear as water, but of course that you will deny it.
    A genocide and ethnic cleasing, my dear Lusitanio. IDF troops are giving themselves licence for indiscriminate destruction, and that's what happens every day.
    Once again, I quote Omar Bartov, Israeli holocaust scholar (previous post, Guardian long read),

    One Israeli 95-year-old military veteran, whose motivational speech to IDF troops preparing for the invasion of Gaza exhorted them to “wipe out their memory, their families, mothers and children”, was given a certificate of honour by Israeli president Herzog for “providing a wonderful example to generations of soldiers.
    Another interview, a few days ago,
    Israel 'engaged in genocidal actions' in Gaza, says Israeli says Israeli-American Holocaust scholar

    Right now, Israel is engaged in genocidal actions in Gaza,’ says Omer Bartov, professor of Holocaust and genocide studies at Brown University

    Actions of Israeli soldiers reflect ‘very much the kind of mentality that I identified among German soldiers in World War II,’
    Occupied West Bank is also facing ‘a situation of creeping ethnic cleansing … carried out by settlers’ with the backing of the Israeli government and military, says Bartov
    “Over time, you could see that actions by the IDF (Israel Defense Forces) were on such a scale of targeted destruction, intentional destruction – of universities, of hospitals, of schools, of mosques, of infrastructure, of housing areas – and the population was being moved from one place to another with the argument that it’s for their own safety,”
    And meanwhile, (the population) was being increasingly debilitated by this, and never safe in its ‘safe zones,’ but constantly struck also in the so-called safe zones.”
    Bartov said that evaluation changed with Israel’s May invasion of Rafah, which was the last remaining city in Gaza that had some level of safety for the roughly 1.5 million civilians who sought shelter there.
    “That, to me, meant that there was simply, absolutely, not only no concern for human life or for any humanitarian considerations, but rather that this was an attempt to make life in Gaza impossible for the population, and to debilitate the population to such an extent that it would either just die out, whether from military action or from the many diseases that are there, from deterioration of health on a massive scale, or try to flee as best it can,”

    Israeli army’s parallels with Nazi military

    Bartov’s scholarship has included landmark research into the Nazi military, known as the Wehrmacht, during World War II, specifically its indiscriminate extermination of civilian populations and the indoctrination that precipitated the killings.
    That included instilling in the wider population the belief that its “enemies” were subhuman, and that the nation was fighting an existential threat to its existence.
    In conversations with Israeli soldiers during a recent two-week visit to the country, Bartov said he found that the troops who had fought in Gaza “have a particular way of seeing reality,” that echoed the mentality he identified among German soldiers in World War II.
    “That reality that they see is that they are fighting an insidious, dangerous, genocidal enemy. If that enemy wins, then they would be destroyed. That it is an enemy whose goal is to wipe Israel out. That’s the way they see it,” he explained.
    “They perceive themselves very much as victims of this terroristic genocide or homicide or organization, and they believe that what they’re doing is completely right, that they have to do it, and all the damage that they’re inflicting is not because they’re bad.
    “They kept saying that to me, ‘We’re not murderers. We are fighting for our country. We're fighting for our survival.’ So, if you have that kind of way of looking at reality, then you block out any sense of empathy with the innocent population, which you yourself are participating in killing and destroying. You don’t see it that way. You see yourself as the victim,” he said.
    This, Bartov added, was “very much the kind of mentality that I identified among German soldiers in World War II.”

    “Decades after World War II, Germans could not accept, they could accept that the SS (Schutzstaffel) carried out the Holocaust and so forth. But for them to think of the military, which represented every German family in Germany … (as an) army … involved in a genocidal undertaking was impossible, both to the soldiers … and their various relatives,” he said.
    Bartov emphasized that his analysis does not mean that Israel’s war in Gaza is equivalent to the Holocaust, saying plainly: “It is not.”
    “But right now, Israel is, as … I have to conclude, engaged in genocidal actions in Gaza. That doesn’t have to be like the Holocaust. There were many other cases. The Holocaust was the greatest genocide in history, and it’s very different from what we are seeing now, but that does not take Israel off the hook for its own actions,” he added.

    “What you have in the West Bank now is a situation of creeping ethnic cleansing, which is being carried out by settlers. It’s not all the settlers, but it’s the radical elements within the settlers. And there are many of them who are outlaws,”

    “The army is supposed to control that, but the army, in fact, is complicit in it. Many of the people that you see now, if you look at the footage from these events, who are wearing uniforms, are settlers in uniforms. The settlers have been given uniforms, have been militarized, and they’re supposed to control the non-uniform settlers.
    So, this is now government policy. Of course, the government would not say it is policy, but the policy is to, in the West Bank, create conditions for Palestinians (that are) increasingly impossible.”
    That's it. No more,no less.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  15. #2835

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Recap: What's happened since Tuesday?
    On Tuesday, hospitals in Lebanon were overwhelmed with casualties after pagers used by Hezbollah exploded
    On Wednesday, a second wave of blasts hit Lebanon, this time exploding walkie-talkies used by Hezbollah
    At least 37 people were killed on both days, with nearly 3,000 others injured
    Hezbollah leader Hassan Nasrallah blamed Israel for attacks saying it had crossed "all red lines" and vowed "just punishment". Israel has not claimed responsibility for the attacks
    Ophthalmologist Dr Elias Warrak told the BBC that more than 60 to 70% of the patients he treated ended up with at least one eye removed, calling it “a nightmare”
    On Thursday night, the IDF says the Israeli Air Force attacked "hundreds" of Hezbollah rocket launch pads in southern Lebanon and on Friday, attacked military buildings in six areas, including Kfar Kila
    On Friday, Hezbollah attacked Israel with 140 rockets launched from Lebanon
    In a new show of major escalation, Israel detonated first some pagers and then some walkie talkies in Lebanon in a completely unprecedented attack against Hezbollah. The attack amounts to basically cluster bombing the entirety of the country. It's a whole new level of terrorism and people don't really realize what kind of genie they have allowed to come out.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #2836
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    For the first time in 42 years, a large majority of countries (124) voted at the United Nations for an end to the illegal occupation of Palestine, giving Israel a one-year deadline to withdraw.

    The vote also called for an arms embargo and sanctions (on products, institutions, academia, etc.). This comes 50 days after the ICJ ruling, which condemned the occupation, to ensure that states commit to what this UN court has decided.

    It's always interesting to see the 14 votes against (besides Israel and the USA, also Hungary, the Czech Republic...), and the 43 abstentions (United Kingdom, Canada, Australia, Germany, Italy, the Netherlands, India, Sweden, Denmark, Ukraine...)

    Portugal, my country, voted well. And not only that: the Portuguese Minister of Foreign Affairs revealed that on September 10, the government refused a request for an American plane to enter national airspace and make a stop at Lajes, in the Azores, because it was transporting weapons to Israel, an export that Portugal prohibited due to the conflict with Palestine: "This government prohibited this month the overflight of a plane coming from the United States to Israel with weapons. The formal decision was made on September 10. It was related to the right to stopover at Lajes and the overflight of Portuguese territory," explained the minister.

    The US Embassy in Portugal clarified that the plane carrying weapons to Israel, whose overflight of Portuguese territory was denied by the Portuguese government, was not an American flight: "Our understanding is that the flight originated in the USA, but it is not a US flight. We have no further information," said the spokesperson for the American embassy, Marie Blanchard.

    As the Italians say, "capito" It’s a flight that originates in the USA, carries weapons to Israel, but it’s not from the USA.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  17. #2837

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    https://www.newsweek.com/why-arab-le...pinion-1956530

    In the wake of the alleged Israeli assault on thousands of Hezbollah members, whose pagers and walkie talkies simultaneously exploded on Monday and Tuesday, Arab governments rushed to condemn the attack, expressing fears that it would escalate the region's conflict.
    Yet many of their citizens had other ideas.
    In the days following the explosions, Arabic-language social media have been full of memes of Hassan Nasrallah, the militant group's chief, with a blown-up backside; schadenfreude remarks of how Hezbollah got what it deserved; claims that the explosions were divine justice and songs praising the operation. In Northern Syria, soldiers even handed out sweets to passing cars to celebrate the "Hezbollah massacre."
    This isn't the first time since the Iran-backed terrorist attack in Israel on Oct. 7 that Arabs have cheered on brazen operations—allegedly—pulled off by the Jewish state against Iran and its allies. Indeed, according to The Media Line, a U.S.-based independent news agency that reports on Arabic and Hebrew-language media, the Arab world largely favored the assassination of Hezbollah military commander Fuad Shukr in July and some Arab commentators even supported Israel's assassination of Hamas chief Ismail Haniyeh last month. When Israel bombed the Houthi-controlled Hodeida port in Yemen, Saudi and Yemeni journalists and social media users rejoiced.
    One of the many important nuances of the Middle East conflicts is that most victims of Iran and its proxies and clients such as Hezbollah and Hamas are not Jews but Arabs.
    If accurate this certainly deal a blow to the "Hamas and Hezbollah are selfless defenders of Muslims against the demonic Nazi-Jewish subhumans" narrative. As it turns out, most people don't enjoy living under the iron-fisted tyranny of religious fanatics who will conscript them into a suicidal war against their neighbors for the crime of existing.

  18. #2838

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Most people = Two Saudi Arabian politicians, one Wahhabi cleric from Hama and an al-Nusra militant? Judging from the rest of his articles, Joseph Epstein does not seem particularly worried about journalistic integrity, but quoting twitter trolls is the laziest way to make propaganda. Easily refuted by whoever bothers to click the links.

  19. #2839

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    https://www.newsweek.com/why-arab-le...pinion-1956530



    If accurate this certainly deal a blow to the "Hamas and Hezbollah are selfless defenders of Muslims against the demonic Nazi-Jewish subhumans" narrative. As it turns out, most people don't enjoy living under the iron-fisted tyranny of religious fanatics who will conscript them into a suicidal war against their neighbors for the crime of existing.
    That's probably because Hezbollah are Shia and the celebrants are hardline Sunnis.

  20. #2840
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Do you know that ethnical cleansing is? By making Gaza inhabitable, Israel forces the Palestinians to either die in the region or flee to another country, thus removing them from that area. It's clear as water, but of course that you will deny it.
    No such a thing is happening, of course. Israel dealing with Hamas is a perfectly justified and admirably humanely carried out military operation. Also the latest coup by Mossad against Hezbollah, blowing up all those manipulated pagers, was just glorious. I applaud the move.
    Last edited by swabian; September 22, 2024 at 05:31 PM.

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