Hamas attacks southern Israel

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Yet, the same ambiguity was not a concern for Israel achieving statehood.

Because it won the war and didn't have to negotiate for its existence.

If my analysts and intelligence officers write reports on you planning to crash an asteroid, how you're building equipment, recruiting manpower and conducting test runs to make that happen and I tell people to just ignore it, yeah, it would be my fault.

You act as though this is the sole indication of threat coming from Gaza. Far from it.
War plan red was a military plan by the US for the invasion of the UK. It would not have been the UK's fault if the US decided to execute this plan. The existence of a plan doesn't neccesitate the desire to carry it out. The intelligence community was under the wrongful impression that Hamas doesn't seek an escalation at the time, that this particular plan was implausible, and that the new and improved fence would delay them long enough even if they did.

Are you saying Israel never conducted airstrikes on Gaza outside of that 2 day operation? You should first establish accurate premises and then accuse me of contradicting arguments. Strikes into Gaza was never something exclusive to major operations and ceasefires never stopped Israel from conducting airstrikes on Gaza before.

January 2022: Israel hits Gaza with airstrikes
April 2022: Israel strikes Gaza after rocket attack as Jerusalem tensions soar

Wow, amazing, two examples outside of the 1 year timeframe you gave, both in response to rocket fire from Gaza. You also linked the 2nd article in the first, and the 1st in the second, lol.
Got me good there, chief.

If nothing like October 7 happened before it was because the Israeli army prevented it from happening. There are cases of them attempting breaches though. You really need to stop making encompassing claims that you clearly do not check. That they have never attempted to breach the border in such a scale doesn't validate the idea that they could never do that. The irony remains that Israel presents Hamas as an existential threat but here you are trying to argue this nonsense. There was every sign of them preparing to do what they did on October 7.

I'm telling you that this assumption was wrong, but that it didn't come out of thin air.
You're actually only adding to my point, though. That breach attempt had 8 members. Hamas never executed an attack with 20, 50, 100, 1000, and certainly not 3000 terrorists at once. The scale of the 7/10 attack was astronomically higher than any they had ever attempted before. It also came at a time of low tensions, and on a holiday, when there was no indication of immediate threat up until the night of the attack, though even then it seems to have likely been dismissed as too unlikely (although Shabak began moving some forces into the area in response). We will only know the full picture after an investigation into the events is done, likely only after the end of the war.

And you've failed to address another point of mine, why? Why would the government willingly let such a thing happen, in your opinion? Take off your tinfoil hat and try to provide motive.

A lot of sickening things happened since October 7 at the hands of Israeli military. Being accused of asking for a temporary ceasefire after having your entire region basically carpet bombed is not the worst thing to be accused of.

Lol, clearly that's a typo and I meant permanent, not temporary. We've had this discussion on this thread before, you should know that's what I've meant. Hamas insists on a full stop to the war so that it can declare victory, Israel insists on it being temporary so that it can continue eradicating Hamas once the ceasefire concludes.

Then read it a few more times. It's quite straightforward. We even have Netanyahu himself saying that Israel should invest in Hamas to keep the Palestinian factions separate. The money was not for preventing escalation in any manner. If it was geared to prevent escalation it was to prevent it from against Hamas in Gaza so that Hamas could stay in power.

We don't have Netanyahu himself saying that, we have an unnamed 'source' saying he said that.
The idea was that if Hamas feels less secure in its hold on power, it would escalate to shore up support and donations.

What likely led to October 7's hostage campaign was the hundreds of if not thousands of Palestinian hostages, including women and children, kept in Israel.

Because they knew Israel would pay a high price. How did they know? they just got 1000 for just 1 Israeli.
Also, they're not 'hostages'. They're convicted terrorists with blood on their hands.

Haniyeh's assassination was Israel sabotaging any attempts at reaching a deal. He had no military value and known to be even unaware of the October 7 attack plans. It's suspicious that Israel suddenly chose to kill him after signs of political reconciliation between political bureaus of Hamas and PLO.

Haniyeh's assassination was based af, and should have been done on day 1. That piece of garbage deserves to burn in hell for all eternity. It is ridiculous to believe that killing your enemies in war is a barrier to peace, frankly. His death will help make Sinwar feel the noose tightening around his neck, and maybe then that rat will try to achieve a deal to save his own skin. Though now he'll likely delay in the hopes that Iran's great impending revenge strike will somehow achieve anything of use to him.

[Coughdrop addict]

That's more true for what you claimed for Hamas' actions. What I presented included literal video evidence of an Israeli soldier raping a Palestinian detainee. The way you're lying right now to save your narrative is mind boggling.

An IDF spokesperson said: "Following suspected substantial abuse of a detainee held in the Sde Teiman detention facility, based on the order of the Military Advocate General's Corps a MPCID investigation was opened.
"Nine suspects who were at the base were detained for questioning on suspicion of serious abuse of a detainee. The suspects were transferred for questioning by the military police."

A few soldiers were allegedly engaging in sexual abuse, got caught, and are being punished. It is in no way equivalent to the celebration of rape as manly and heroic as is the norm among Hamas, or the way Hamas members carried out mass rapes and murders and acted like they were having the best day of their lives on Oct 7.

if you're talking about me, say it loud and clear. I'm not afraid of the Inquisition.

Now that I've confessed my heretical thoughts, don't forget to complain to the inquisition again.

Oh come down off of that cross. We need the wood.

We're all aware that "A negotiated end to the war in Ukraine." is just Putinesse for "Let Putin keep all the land he stole, then let him take the rest of Ukraine in a year or too."

the dream that the war will lead to the fragmentation of the Russian Federation is dangerously reckless.

Massive empires can and have fallen, often because the ruling autocrat decided to expand his empire at the expense of a weaker neighbor who put up a bigger fight then expected, crashing the economy and decimating the military. You should start considering the idea that Russia is no more permanent or indispensable to the world then the Soviet Union or Roman Empire was, and can in fact fall apart. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if right now in some dark corner of the Kremlin a few generals are whispering to one another "What to do about Putin?"

[mishkin]

Israel has the right to kill even in foreign countries because it is at war. On the other hand, Hamas and anything we can relate to them (for example people living in the same neighborhood as one of them) only have the right to be killed.

wondering what the reaction of Israeli policy advocates would be to the Hamas assassination of Benjamin Netanyahu.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Israel has the right to kill even in foreign countries because it is at war.

This you?

murders of leaders, destabilization of "political" organizations, their economic asphyxiation, support for competing organizations/political parties.. seriously, to put an end to a terrorist organization, do you have to raze a territory? I was going to ask you if you thought that we are still in the Middle Ages, but even in the Middle Ages there were more answers than brutality, if not mere revenge and putting on a show were sought.

First you complain Israel isn't assassinating Hamas leaders, then you complain that Israel is assassinating Hamas leaders. It's almost like you just default to taking whatever is the anti-Israel position.

On the other hand, Hamas and anything we can relate to them (for example people living in the same neighborhood as one of them) only have the right to be killed.

Hamas can also surrender their arms and stand trial. Are you expecting Israel to send them a bouquet of flowers?

wondering what the reaction of Israeli policy advocates would be to the Hamas assassination of Benjamin Netanyahu.

Now equating assassinating the leader of a terrorist organisation to assassinating an elected prime minister. Cool. Did you take the same stance about Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi?

[mishkin]

It's called choosing the lesser evil. Yes, that was me saying that it's preferable to assassinate the leaders of an organization than to raze a territory (and kill tens of thousands of innocent people). But it seems that Israel's goal really has little to do with Hamas. If they killed the entire political and military leadership of Hamas, they would continue devastating Gaza. I was really naïve when I said that.

Your Prime Minister is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people and the destruction of Gaza. Choose, extrajudicial killings of human scum are right or wrong? (By the way, the fact that he was democratically elected in a fair election makes Israel as a whole responsible).

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's called choosing the lesser evil. Yes, that was me saying that it's preferable to assassinate the leaders of an organization than to raze a territory (and kill tens of thousands of innocent people). But it seems that Israel's goal really has little to do with Hamas. If they killed the entire political and military leadership of Hamas, they would continue devastating Gaza. I was really naïve when I said that.

What nonsense is this? If Hamas is eradicated, this war ends. What are you trying to claim that the goal is here?

Your Prime Minister is responsible for the deaths of thousands of innocent people and the destruction of Gaza. Choose, extrajudicial killings of human scum are right or wrong? (By the way, the fact that he was democratically elected in a fair election makes Israel as a whole responsible).

The prime minister belongs in prison for the crimes of bribery, fraud, breach of trust, and for the gross negligence that led to 7/10. For the conduct of the war? No.

[PointOfViewGun]

Because it won the war and didn't have to negotiate for its existence.

Not a valid reason. Winning wars does not determine the right to sovereignty. You're building a very slippery slope there just to deflect from Israel's despicable position.

You act as though this is the sole indication of threat coming from Gaza. Far from it.
War plan red was a military plan by the US for the invasion of the UK. It would not have been the UK's fault if the US decided to execute this plan. The existence of a plan doesn't neccesitate the desire to carry it out. The intelligence community was under the wrongful impression that Hamas doesn't seek an escalation at the time, that this particular plan was implausible, and that the new and improved fence would delay them long enough even if they did.

We're not talking about simply having a plan. That's been made clear abundantly. Continuing to ignore substance of Hamas' material preparations to accomplish this attack doesn't make sense.

Wow, amazing, two examples outside of the 1 year timeframe you gave, both in response to rocket fire from Gaza. You also linked the 2nd article in the first, and the 1st in the second, lol.
Got me good there, chief.

Two examples outside of the limited time frame you cornered yourself to. You might wanna check which article is linked where again. If you're gonna throw childish jabs, make sure they're accurate.

I'm telling you that this assumption was wrong, but that it didn't come out of thin air.
You're actually only adding to my point, though. That breach attempt had 8 members. Hamas never executed an attack with 20, 50, 100, 1000, and certainly not 3000 terrorists at once. The scale of the 7/10 attack was astronomically higher than any they had ever attempted before. It also came at a time of low tensions, and on a holiday, when there was no indication of immediate threat up until the night of the attack, though even then it seems to have likely been dismissed as too unlikely (although Shabak began moving some forces into the area in response). We will only know the full picture after an investigation into the events is done, likely only after the end of the war.
And you've failed to address another point of mine, why? Why would the government willingly let such a thing happen, in your opinion? Take off your tinfoil hat and try to provide motive.

That's a fallacious argument. No matter what Hamas did in the past it would have a degree of difference and you'd use that as an excuse to say that they've never done something like that. We're still talking about a group that Israel continuously tried to sell as a non-existential threat. You can't argue that and then to rely on saying that Hamas never posed a serious threat in the first place.

I have indicated why Netanyahu and few higher ranking officials around him (as in the colonel ranking officers that dismissed warnings about the attacks) would want this attack before many times. Israel doesn't benefit from a calm Gaza or West Bank. They need a boogey man to justify the continuous siege of Gaza and colonization of West Bank. That they overdone their reaction and lost the international support to some degree shows their arrogance and does not invalidate that point.

Lol, clearly that's a typo and I meant permanent, not temporary. We've had this discussion on this thread before, you should know that's what I've meant. Hamas insists on a full stop to the war so that it can declare victory, Israel insists on it being temporary so that it can continue eradicating Hamas once the ceasefire concludes.

If you want people to take into past discussions into account against what you currently write, first do it yourself and avoid ignoring what they currently say as well as I indicated. Hamas would declare victory from the grave even if every single member of their organization is dead. Right now, Israel is only continuing to strengthen the future of Hamas 2.0 with the brutality of its actions. Its clear that the intention is not to combat Hamas. Many actions of Israel, targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, shows that the real purpose is to make Gaza as much inhabitable as possible for the next decade. Change my statement though from temporary to permanent. It's still not the worst thing to be accused of.

We don't have Netanyahu himself saying that, we have an unnamed 'source' saying he said that.
The idea was that if Hamas feels less secure in its hold on power, it would escalate to shore up support and donations.

We have more than that:

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

According to the Times, Israeli intelligence agents traveled into Gaza with a Qatari official carrying suitcases filled with cash to disperse money. Retired Israeli general Shlomo Brom described the logic of Netanyahu’s position: “One effective way to prevent a two-state solution is to divide between the Gaza Strip and the West Bank.” If the extremist Hamas ruled Gaza, then the Palestinian Authority—a compromised comprador government with a tenuous hold on the West Bank—would be further weakened. This, according to Brom, would allow Netanyahu to say, “I have no partner.”

In 2015, Bezalel Smotrich, currently the finance minister in Netanyahu’s government, summed up the strategy by stating, “The Palestinian Authority is a burden. Hamas is an asset.”

You can try to whitewash Israeli partnership with Hamas all you like. We know better. As if you'd use that standard of argumentation for any other issue.

Because they knew Israel would pay a high price. How did they know? they just got 1000 for just 1 Israeli.
Also, they're not 'hostages'. They're convicted terrorists with blood on their hands.

A rare example from 18 years ago? If I used such an example you'd be dismissing it right away, yet, here you rely on it religiously. Palestinian hostages kept under Israeli control are not terrorists with blood on their hands. Most of them are not even charged with anything.

Haniyeh's assassination was based af, and should have been done on day 1. That piece of garbage deserves to burn in hell for all eternity. It is ridiculous to believe that killing your enemies in war is a barrier to peace, frankly. His death will help make Sinwar feel the noose tightening around his neck, and maybe then that rat will try to achieve a deal to save his own skin. Though now he'll likely delay in the hopes that Iran's great impending revenge strike will somehow achieve anything of use to him.

Yes, killing your enemy in war bars peace if that particular enemy had nothing to do with the present fighting and has been one of the negotiators for peace. Even assassination of Netanyahu would make more sense. It was an obvious strike by Israel on peace attempts and union between Gaza and West Bank politically and pave the way for new elections.

A few soldiers were allegedly engaging in sexual abuse, got caught, and are being punished. It is in no way equivalent to the celebration of rape as manly and heroic as is the norm among Hamas, or the way Hamas members carried out mass rapes and murders and acted like they were having the best day of their lives on Oct 7.

Yet, we still have more material evidence of Israeli crimes and you chose to lie about them blatantly. You also know your position on Russia and Hamas to be completely wrong as I am the living example of the opposite of what you're arguing. Your failure to address any substance thrown at you is a testament to the fragility of your position. You can throw arguments of hysteria all you like. What you claimed was complete BS.

[Ludicus]

We're all aware that "A negotiated end to the war in Ukraine." is just Putinesse..."

What you are saying is a dangerous insanity: all wars end at the negotiating table. But if you want to talk about Ukraine, go to the relevant thread instead of complaining here about the presence of "Putinists in this thread’". It's an ugly and miserable attitude.
--
What's happening in Israel is symptomatic. The exception, not the rule:

'I'm not sure Israel is a democratic state any more': Yair Golan’s mission to save his country

Israeli politics has changed, Golan said. “I’m not sure whether Israel right now is truly a democratic state any more … It is not a question of left or right any more: these titles are meaningless,” he said.
“The right today in Israel is people who think we can annex millions of Palestinians, and Israel should adopt some sort of policy of revenge, that we can live by our swords and not attempt to reconcile with the Palestinians or any other hostile entity in the region. I think 180 degrees the opposite.”

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Not a valid reason. Winning wars does not determine the right to sovereignty. You're building a very slippery slope there just to deflect from Israel's despicable position.

Yes it does? and losing them certainly doesn't.
The right to sovereignty also came from the UK letting the UN decide what to do with its land, and the UN resolution deciding on an Israeli and a palestinian state, and Israel actually accepting this.

We're not talking about simply having a plan. That's been made clear abundantly. Continuing to ignore substance of Hamas' material preparations to accomplish this attack doesn't make sense.

I'll let you in on a secret: terrorist organisation constantly make such preparations. Your attempt at shifting the blame to the victim by implicating some sort of insane conspiracy to achieve nothing but damage to one self is more sad than it is funny. Even flat earthers can probably give more justification as to why NASA would 'pretend' the world is round (selling globes or something I guess?) than you have here. Do not attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

Two examples outside of the limited time frame you cornered yourself to. You might wanna check which article is linked where again. If you're gonna throw childish jabs, make sure they're accurate.

You gave a 1 year timeframe. Not much of a retort. I guess you've got nothing.

That's a fallacious argument. No matter what Hamas did in the past it would have a degree of difference and you'd use that as an excuse to say that they've never done something like that. We're still talking about a group that Israel continuously tried to sell as a non-existential threat. You can't argue that and then to rely on saying that Hamas never posed a serious threat in the first place.

I have not said that Hamas never posed a serious threat.
It's not just a degree of difference, povg. Stop pretending to be obtuse. The difference between 8 and 3000 people is not minute.
If a student signifies intent to pass an exam, studies for it, and keeps getting a score of 2/100 despite all that, you won't expect him to suddenly show up and score 100/100. You just won't, because it's too big of a jump.

I have indicated why Netanyahu and few higher ranking officials around him (as in the colonel ranking officers that dismissed warnings about the attacks) would want this attack before many times. Israel doesn't benefit from a calm Gaza or West Bank. They need a boogey man to justify the continuous siege of Gaza and colonization of West Bank. That they overdone their reaction and lost the international support to some degree shows their arrogance and does not invalidate that point.

Insane. You're saying Netanyahu sacrificed his political career, and some high ranking officers sacrificed their military career, during a time of already immense internal tension within Israel, because.. Netanyahu just really wants to bomb Gaza? You think he gets a kick out of it or something? How does destroying his chances at passing the judicial reform he so wants to save him from prison in order to bomb Gaza at all sensible?
You're just showing that you have 0 understanding of Israeli internal politics. None whatsoever. Bibi isn't some evil genius, he isn't some ideologue who wants to colonise the holy land. He's a milquetoast politician who only cares about self-preservation with no backbone, and no strong beliefs of his own. His stances change like the wind, depending on what will please more people. He's certainly not the far-right zealot people imagine him as being. He voted in favour of pulling out of Gaza, he froze construction in the settlements, tried to form a coalition reliant on an Arab party by giving them concessions, and is right now keeping the far-right ministers out of the war cabinet. He is the last person who would sacrifice himself to a cause, any cause.
No less funny is your opinion of the army. Those officers you speak of are mostly lefties. And, again, this absolutely destroys their military career. Some have already resigned in shame, the rest will too, including the chief of staff.
To believe that these people sacrificed themselves to forward some greater evil plan is only proving how little you understand what you're talking about.

If you want people to take into past discussions into account against what you currently write, first do it yourself and avoid ignoring what they currently say as well as I indicated. Hamas would declare victory from the grave even if every single member of their organization is dead. Right now, Israel is only continuing to strengthen the future of Hamas 2.0 with the brutality of its actions. Its clear that the intention is not to combat Hamas. Many actions of Israel, targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, shows that the real purpose is to make Gaza as much inhabitable as possible for the next decade. Change my statement though from temporary to permanent. It's still not the worst thing to be accused of.

Yet somehow this logic doesn't apply to the PKK, ISIS, the Nazis, etc. Those can all be eradicated, but not Hamas right?

We have more than that:

Why Netanyahu Bolstered Hamas

You can try to whitewash Israeli partnership with Hamas all you like. We know better. As if you'd use that standard of argumentation for any other issue.

Ah yes, we also have a retired brigadier general who finished his service in 1998, and Smotrich being a moron as usual.

A rare example from 18 years ago? If I used such an example you'd be dismissing it right away, yet, here you rely on it religiously. Palestinian hostages kept under Israeli control are not terrorists with blood on their hands. Most of them are not even charged with anything.

2011 Was 18 years ago? You live in the future or something?
To dismiss the hostage deal that released the orchestrators of 7/10 would be quite silly. It's very much relevant for the heads of Hamas, doubly so the ones who themselves were released in it.
They're not hostages, they're prisoners who've committed crimes.
I do agree that administrative detention should be outlawed, and ironically the parties most pushing for doing so however are far-right parties, because administrative detention is sometimes used on extremist settlers.

Yes, killing your enemy in war bars peace if that particular enemy had nothing to do with the present fighting and has been one of the negotiators for peace. Even assassination of Netanyahu would make more sense. It was an obvious strike by Israel on peace attempts and union between Gaza and West Bank politically and pave the way for new elections.

It was an elimination of a terrorist leader, and on Iranian soil no less, a clear message to Hamas' puppet master.
Haniyeh's death won't hamper negotiations, as Sinwar always had the final say regardless. Now Sinwar has another reason to be worried.
Also, pff. These attempts at 'reconciliation' between Hamas and Fatah are just for show. They've done plenty before, it leads to nothing.

[mishkin]

Destruction/Humanitarian situation in Gaza (AP).

Percentage of buildings likely damaged/destroyed: 59.3%

Percentage of homes likely damaged: more than 60%

Percentage of school buildings damaged: 85%

Hospitals that are partially functioning: 16 of 36

Palestinian civilians facing “catastrophic” food insecurity, according to the U.N.: 495,000

Percentage of students out of school: 100%

Percentage of road network damaged: 65%

Cemeteries damaged: At least 21

[mishkin]

Sorry are you saying that Israel is at war with Gaza/Palestine?

Edit. It would be nice if some people would take off their masks and say clearly that the Palestinians are the enemy to be annihilated, that Hamas and Palestine are the same. So many sudden silences and so many excuses for the massacre (they voted for/support Hamas, Hamas hides among the Palestinian population so it is their responsibility if the Israeli army kills a few dozen children, etc.). It is really tiring.

[Laser101]

A few soldiers were allegedly engaging in sexual abuse, got caught, and are being punished. It is in no way equivalent to the celebration of rape as manly and heroic as is the norm among Hamas, or the way Hamas members carried out mass rapes and murders and acted like they were having the best day of their lives on Oct 7.

That depends on how willing you are to believe Israeli propaganda about their own military.

[PointOfViewGun]

Yes it does? and losing them certainly doesn't.
The right to sovereignty also came from the UK letting the UN decide what to do with its land, and the UN resolution deciding on an Israeli and a palestinian state, and Israel actually accepting this.

No, victory doesn't determine sovereignty. I know this is the Israeli mindset of might makes right but in this day and age that's no longer valid. Israel didn't and doesn't accept the UN resolutions giving Israel sovereignty either. It works to undermine those resolutions on a daily basis.

I'll let you in on a secret: terrorist organisation constantly make such preparations. Your attempt at shifting the blame to the victim by implicating some sort of insane conspiracy to achieve nothing but damage to one self is more sad than it is funny. Even flat earthers can probably give more justification as to why NASA would 'pretend' the world is round (selling globes or something I guess?) than you have here. Do not attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.

You can try to deflect day and night. That doesn't change the facts of the matter. You fail to address any substance thrown at you and instead dive into accusations/comparisons devoid of any intelligent thought speaks for itself.

You gave a 1 year timeframe. Not much of a retort. I guess you've got nothing.

And you limited yourself to the "2 day military operation in August of 2022" which didn't take much to refute. Your refusal to accept cases that proved you wrong is not an argument.

I have not said that Hamas never posed a serious threat.
It's not just a degree of difference, povg. Stop pretending to be obtuse. The difference between 8 and 3000 people is not minute.
If a student signifies intent to pass an exam, studies for it, and keeps getting a score of 2/100 despite all that, you won't expect him to suddenly show up and score 100/100. You just won't, because it's too big of a jump.

If you actively tried to stop that student from getting more than 2/100 in the past and then he gets 100/100 after you dial down your efforts to stop him from getting good grades, no, its not really a big jump.

Insane. You're saying Netanyahu sacrificed his political career, and some high ranking officers sacrificed their military career, during a time of already immense internal tension within Israel, because.. Netanyahu just really wants to bomb Gaza? You think he gets a kick out of it or something? How does destroying his chances at passing the judicial reform he so wants to save him from prison in order to bomb Gaza at all sensible?
You're just showing that you have 0 understanding of Israeli internal politics. None whatsoever. Bibi isn't some evil genius, he isn't some ideologue who wants to colonise the holy land. He's a milquetoast politician who only cares about self-preservation with no backbone, and no strong beliefs of his own. His stances change like the wind, depending on what will please more people. He's certainly not the far-right zealot people imagine him as being. He voted in favour of pulling out of Gaza, he froze construction in the settlements, tried to form a coalition reliant on an Arab party by giving them concessions, and is right now keeping the far-right ministers out of the war cabinet. He is the last person who would sacrifice himself to a cause, any cause.
No less funny is your opinion of the army. Those officers you speak of are mostly lefties. And, again, this absolutely destroys their military career. Some have already resigned in shame, the rest will too, including the chief of staff.
To believe that these people sacrificed themselves to forward some greater evil plan is only proving how little you understand what you're talking about.

This is not rocket science. You really don't need to obfuscate what people argue to make a point. All I see there is your rant displaying your refusal to come to terms with complacency of the Netanyahu administration. His refusal to investigate October 7 simply gives him time to hide the level of his complacency. It doesn't matter who is in charge though. Israel needs a boogey man to hide away its crimes in West Bank and to get chances to make Gaza inhabitable for Palestinians. They need that boogey man to rumble every now and then. Where things went bad for them is when Israel overdid their response as they got overconfident thinking that they could get away with everything.

Yet somehow this logic doesn't apply to the PKK, ISIS, the Nazis, etc. Those can all be eradicated, but not Hamas right?

Who said it doesn't?

Ah yes, we also have a retired brigadier general who finished his service in 1998, and Smotrich being a moron as usual.

I guess even if we had Netanyahu himself post here saying the same things you'd find a bogus way to dismiss it. Frankly, they speak enough by themselves.

2011 Was 18 years ago? You live in the future or something?
To dismiss the hostage deal that released the orchestrators of 7/10 would be quite silly. It's very much relevant for the heads of Hamas, doubly so the ones who themselves were released in it.

Captured 18 years ago, released 13 years ago, that doesn't really help you much. That deal was important but the importance of that doesn't help your earlier argument either. No one dismissed it in the manner you're accusing of. Israel has a habit of releasing high-level Hamas operatives. Says more about its commitment to fighting Hamas for real.

They're not hostages, they're prisoners who've committed crimes.
I do agree that administrative detention should be outlawed, and ironically the parties most pushing for doing so however are far-right parties, because administrative detention is sometimes used on extremist settlers.

Many of them are hostages; women and children in particular in hundreds. People who commit crimes are charged. They are not charged.

It was an elimination of a terrorist leader, and on Iranian soil no less, a clear message to Hamas' puppet master.
Haniyeh's death won't hamper negotiations, as Sinwar always had the final say regardless. Now Sinwar has another reason to be worried.
Also, pff. These attempts at 'reconciliation' between Hamas and Fatah are just for show. They've done plenty before, it leads to nothing.

No, it wasn't an elimination of a terrorist leader. It was an elimination of an individual that was running the negotiations to release the hostages. Last concrete reconciliation effort between Hamas and Fatah was over 15 years ago. Israel simply wanted to hinder de-escalation of the conflict.

[Kyriakos]

How sad, oh well. Start a war you have no chance of winning doesn't make you a victim.

Imagine how [bad epithets] it would be if people claimed that is why Ukraine isn't a victim; it shelled Donbass etc. How is it even possible to think an argument holds water as long as you change the placeholder nouns?

I know killing Jews is good business, but it seems that they are fighting back this time. Makes you angry, doesn't it?

Maybe (maybe) this can be applicable to some muslim countries in the region where nazism is historically popular. But it certainly comes across as the poorest of posts when you try to generalize it to anyone speaking of the massacres against palestinians.

To return to your first point, then, yes the October attack happened to try to cancel the pending accord between Israel and Saudi Arabia. And Israel then took the bait to 9000 and ruined any chance of such an accord, sacrificing also any sympathy there was for it in the "west" (only the US strange -I mean the rebuilding the Temple of Solomon etc- crowd remained, but that would have remained regardless). So job well done as long as you condone baiting on a historical proportion.

The leadership of palestinians is terribly bad. That is obvious. Not just Hamas, mind - although Hamas takes the cake, being a purely terrorist organization which gains support because there are so many dead palestinians now. I don't care about either Hamas or the palestinian authority in WB. But this doesn't absolve Israel for what it does to people. Hamas can be taken out, yes - but then it will be replaced by pretty much the same.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

No, victory doesn't determine sovereignty. I know this is the Israeli mindset of might makes right but in this day and age that's no longer valid. Israel didn't and doesn't accept the UN resolutions giving Israel sovereignty either. It works to undermine those resolutions on a daily basis.

Are you saying Israel didn't accept UN resolution 181? Yeah it did. The resolution however never went into effect as the other side rejected it.
Wars for independence do guarantee sovereignty. Do tell povg, how was your own state founded?

You can try to deflect day and night. That doesn't change the facts of the matter. You fail to address any substance thrown at you and instead dive into accusations/comparisons devoid of any intelligent thought speaks for itself.

I've addressed all the 'substance' thrown, which wasn't much. Conspiracy mumbo jumbo for the most part. Not much separates you from the 'Bush did 9/11' crowd. Or rather the 'Jews did 9/11' crowd.

And you limited yourself to the "2 day military operation in August of 2022" which didn't take much to refute. Your refusal to accept cases that proved you wrong is not an argument.

You're right, even that is just outside the timeframe you gave. Why you think this helps your argument, I don't know.

If you actively tried to stop that student from getting more than 2/100 in the past and then he gets 100/100 after you dial down your efforts to stop him from getting good grades, no, its not really a big jump.

This is not rocket science. You really don't need to obfuscate what people argue to make a point. All I see there is your rant displaying your refusal to come to terms with complacency of the Netanyahu administration. His refusal to investigate October 7 simply gives him time to hide the level of his complacency. It doesn't matter who is in charge though. Israel needs a boogey man to hide away its crimes in West Bank and to get chances to make Gaza inhabitable for Palestinians. They need that boogey man to rumble every now and then. Where things went bad for them is when Israel overdid their response as they got overconfident thinking that they could get away with everything.

No, not complacency, incompetence. No one in their right mind would think he did this on purpose. It just makes 0 sense, especially considering it is Netanyahu of all people.
You think the issue is the response? I agree that the response has been slow and not as drastic as most would have wanted, but no, 7/10 itself was the issue. Netanyahu has no political future after it. He knows that, and hence would never willingly allow this to happen.
You're also undermining your own arguments. On the one hand, you claim Netanyahu wants to strengthen Hamas to weaken the PA, on the other hand you claim Netanyahu wants to make Gaza uninhabitable (why??), which would severely weaken Hamas and make the PA the sole government. How can one believe both to be true, when those stances are so contradictory? It's like believing the Earth is flat but also that the earth is round. Are you okay?

Who said it doesn't?

So you're saying the allies shouldn't have fought the Nazis and occupied Germany, instead letting them maintain power?
Are you saying Turkey should cease fighting the PKK?

I guess even if we had Netanyahu himself post here saying the same things you'd find a bogus way to dismiss it. Frankly, they speak enough by themselves.

If he himself said it, then your claim that he himself said it would be true, well argued sir.

Captured 18 years ago, released 13 years ago, that doesn't really help you much. That deal was important but the importance of that doesn't help your earlier argument either. No one dismissed it in the manner you're accusing of. Israel has a habit of releasing high-level Hamas operatives. Says more about its commitment to fighting Hamas for real.

Again, you contradict yourself. Choose one:
1) Israel wants to strengthen Hamas as a counterweight to the PA.
2) Israel wants to destroy Gaza and make it uninhabitable, which would severely cripple Hamas and undermine any plausible 'benefit' of strengthening it, and thus strengthen the PA.
You can't have both.

Many of them are hostages; women and children in particular in hundreds. People who commit crimes are charged. They are not charged.

Because women and children cannot commit crimes..?

No, it wasn't an elimination of a terrorist leader.

To clarify, are you saying that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation? Because I can't see how else this statement could be understood. The leader of a terrorist organisation is by definition a terrorist leader.

It was an elimination of an individual that was running the negotiations to release the hostages.

Lol, yes, Ismail Haniyeh, the great peace maker. Give me a break. That piece of human excrement deserves what he got and more, may his memory be wiped.

Last concrete reconciliation effort between Hamas and Fatah was over 15 years ago. Israel simply wanted to hinder de-escalation of the conflict.

2014 was not 15 years ago. Is every single date you provide going to be wrong?
A Hamas-Fatah reconciliation is not a de-escalation of the conflict, all it does is deligitimize Fatah's government and decrease the chance for peace.

[sumskilz]

Sorry are you saying that Israel is at war with Gaza/Palestine?

Edit. It would be nice if some people would take off their masks and say clearly that the Palestinians are the enemy to be annihilated, that Hamas and Palestine are the same.

For reasons of political expedience, Hamas and its allies are the declared enemy, but no one doubts that the Gazans are a de facto enemy population, least of all not the Palestinians themselves. If one recognizes Palestine as a state, then the Palestinians are by definition an enemy population.

Even after all that has happened in Gaza, 57% of Gazans still view the October 7th attack positively. That this is lower than the 73% positive view in the West Bank belies the concern trolling assertion that the conflict will only further radicalize Palestinians, as if they could actually hate Jews any more than they already do. Support for the killing of Jewish civilians is arguably higher among Palestinians than it was among Germans during WWII. The Nazis at least felt they had to make some effort to hide it, whereas it’s a matter of pride and a source of legitimacy for Hamas.

All that said, the notion that this means the Palestinians must “be annihilated” is a non-sequitur. The reason civilians cannot legally be targeted isn’t because they aren’t enemies, but rather because they are not posing a direct threat. It’s the same reason that POWs can’t simply be executed.

Many Israelis still hope that with Hamas removed, the Gazan population can be deradicalized, possibly with the support of non-hostile Arab governments. Personally, I doubt that. At least not in the foreseeable future.








Source

[mishkin]

I talk about 40,000 dead and most of Gaza destroyed, you respond with how much the Palestinians hate Israel.

"If one recognizes Palestine as a state, then the Palestinians are by definition an enemy population". Quick, declare Palestine a state (and Hamas its legitimate government) so that Israel can kill any Palestinian with impunity. Oh wait, that's already happening.

Edit: Seriously, I can't imagine how the situation in Palestine could be worse if that scenario (Palestine being a state ruled by Hamas at war with Israel) was real. It would probably be worse for Israel because it would have to take care of all the displaced palestinians and would not be able to bombard them.

[Ludicus]

so that Israel can kill any Palestinian with impunity. Oh wait, that's already happening.

In fact, that's what's been happening for the last 75 years.
--
Eighteen members of same family killed in Israeli strike on Gaza

Dead included 11 siblings aged between two and 22, hospital says, as well as their parents and grandmother

Cars and houses burn after Israeli settler attack on West Bank ...
Israeli protesters rally for ‘the right to rape’ prisoners

Hind Rajab's death has already been forgotten. That's what Israel wants-The Guardian
The Israeli state has applied its usual strategy after this atrocity: deny, deflect, deceive, and wait for attention to move elsewhere

.. early five months after the killings, Forensic Architecture – an acclaimed multidisciplinary research group based at Goldsmiths, University of London, published a detailed investigation . They mapped 335 bullet holes in the car’s exterior... “At such proximity,” they write, “it is not plausible that the shooter could not have seen that the car was occupied by civilians, including children.”...

If this one atrocity had been committed by Hamas militants on 7 October, it would be repeatedly and specifically highlighted as evidence of the utter barbarism of the enemy. That has not happened here.
Israel’s modus operandi can be seen in action time and time again. media outlets treat initial Israeli claims as credible, where they would rightly pour scorn on similar claims by the Russian state.

As Gaza’s official death toll passes 40,000 – including about 14,000 children – Israeli newspaper Haaretz points out that this represents a higher proportion of the prewar population killed in 10 months than were killed in the Iraq war over 20 years, or in the Yugoslav wars over 10 years; and it’s four times the proportion of people killed in Ukraine over two-and-a-half years. What’s more, this is likely a drastic underestimate: thousands buried under the rubble are excluded from official figures, as are indirect deaths – going by precedent, likely to end up the biggest killer – while the reporting system has virtually collapsed thanks to a destroyed healthcare apparatus. Other estimates by medical experts range from 92,000 to 186,000.

If a state not allied to the west were guilty of this, there would not only be a consensus that it represents one of the gravest crimes of our age, but it would also be regarded as morally indecent not to think so.

If Israel’s conduct in its war on Gaza was understood for what it is – an abomination perpetrated by a murderous regime – powerful figures would fear consequences. Those who cheered it on would fear being permanently branded as monsters. Those who stayed silent, empty platitudes and handwringing aside, would fear accountability. Until this happens, the horrors will not end. So if you are ever in doubt about what this really is, think back to the final, terrified moments of Hind Rajab, a five-year-old girl with an adorable smile.

--


In Gaza, Israel's Military Has Reached the End of the Line- New York Times

Israel has achieved all that it can militarily in the Gaza Strip, according to senior U.S. officials, who say continued bombings are only increasing risks to civilians while the possibility of further weakening Hamas has diminished...a growing number of national security officials across the government said that the Israeli military had severely set back Hamas but would never be able to completely eliminate the group.

Well, Smotrich has the recipe.
---
An interesting poll. Sympathies for Israelis or Palestinians in the Middle East among Americans with no religious identity: Palestinians:43%. Israel: 34%
Support for Israel in U.S. Hampered by Declining Religiosity-Gallup

The problem for Israel is the shrinking number of highly religious Americans. In short, shifts in the U.S. religious landscape are weakening the level of traditionally strong attitudinal support Israel has received from Americans...It has been said about the Middle East -- in reference to the differing birth rates among Jews and Palestinians -- that demographics are destiny. In terms of public opinion about Israel within the U.S. -- the largest financial and military supporter of Israel in the world -- it can be said that religion is destiny, at least to some degree. Current trends suggest that this destiny has more risks for Israel than benefits”.

Evil atheists, this must be stopped. In Spain, a modern, secular country-only 3% of Spanish people consider religion as one of their three most important values- common sense simply prevails: “Who is more responsible for what is happening now in Gaza?”: Israel 50%: Palestine 16%. https://media.realinstitutoelcano.or...-palestine.png

Curiously, thinking about it, in Wahat al-Salam/Neve Shalom (Israel), on the hill the village is built on, there are no synagogues/ mosques/churches. There is a House of Silence, with a rock in the middle with an olive branch – a universal sign of peace , a lighted candle and some mats and stools. How a Palestinian/Jewish Village in Israel Changed After October 7^th -The New Yorker.

...Even those who were living outside of Wahat al-Salam/Neve Shalom remained a part of the community, voting members of the village, and active participants in the WhatsApp group. They were, in other words, living the model that their parents had hoped to build: two people, one place, where no one is going anywhere, and everyone must learn to live together. They agreed on most things—justice, equality, an end to the occupation. They disagreed on military service, a subject that they had learned to avoid.

I almost forgot to mention: Israel media hates Kamala Harris' pro-Palestinian stepdaughter Ella Emhoff

[PointOfViewGun]

Are you saying Israel didn't accept UN resolution 181? Yeah it did. The resolution however never went into effect as the other side rejected it.
Wars for independence do guarantee sovereignty. Do tell povg, how was your own state founded?

Israel didn't exist when UN Resolution 181 was voted. The subsequent Jewish actions directly contradicted the resolutions terms ever since as well.

You're right, even that is just outside the timeframe you gave. Why you think this helps your argument, I don't know.

Probably because I didn't give you such a time frame. You made it up to pointlessly rely on it. The time frame I gave you instead covered the time between October 7 and when Hamas started openly drilling for the attack (going back as early as 2020).

You're also undermining your own arguments. On the one hand, you claim Netanyahu wants to strengthen Hamas to weaken the PA, on the other hand you claim Netanyahu wants to make Gaza uninhabitable (why??), which would severely weaken Hamas and make the PA the sole government. How can one believe both to be true, when those stances are so contradictory? It's like believing the Earth is flat but also that the earth is round. Are you okay?

Again, you contradict yourself. Choose one:
1) Israel wants to strengthen Hamas as a counterweight to the PA.
2) Israel wants to destroy Gaza and make it uninhabitable, which would severely cripple Hamas and undermine any plausible 'benefit' of strengthening it, and thus strengthen the PA.
You can't have both.

They are not contradictory in any way. You're comparing an end game with a tactic. Keeping Palestinian Authority away from Gaza with an Hamas empowered by Israel allows Gaza to be kept as a place of conflict and further enable it to become inhabitable. You need better premises. You can rely on obfuscation only to a certain degree.

So you're saying the allies shouldn't have fought the Nazis and occupied Germany, instead letting them maintain power?
Are you saying Turkey should cease fighting the PKK?

You know very well the amplitude of differences those cases have with that of what we're witnessing today. Ask a question that relies on intelligent points, not idiocy.

Because women and children cannot commit crimes..?

They can and they're usually charged when they do. Hundreds of them held hostage by Israelis are not. Many don't even know what their crimes are.

Why Does Israel Have So Many Palestinians in Detention and Available to Swap?

The majority have never been convicted of a crime, including more than 2,000 of them being held in administrative detention, in which the Israeli military detains a person without charge or trial. Such detention can be renewed indefinitely based on secret information, which the detainee is not allowed to see. Administrative detainees are held on the presumption that they might commit an offense at some point in the future. Israeli authorities have held children, human rights defenders and Palestinian political activists, among others, in administrative detention, often for prolonged periods.

Palestinians can be jailed for participating in a gathering of merely 10 people without a permit on any issue “that could be construed as political,” while settlers can demonstrate without a permit unless the gathering exceeds 50 people, takes place outdoors and involves “political speeches and statements.”

To clarify, are you saying that Hamas is not a terrorist organisation? Because I can't see how else this statement could be understood. The leader of a terrorist organisation is by definition a terrorist leader.
Lol, yes, Ismail Haniyeh, the great peace maker. Give me a break. That piece of human excrement deserves what he got and more, may his memory be wiped.

Ismail Haniyeh was not the leader of Hamas. He was the leader of the political bureau with little to no knowledge of October 7 attacks and was actively involved in hostage negotiations as an envoy. The memory he leaves is that of Israel killing the negotiator with little to no involvement with the attack on Israel.

2014 was not 15 years ago. Is every single date you provide going to be wrong?
A Hamas-Fatah reconciliation is not a de-escalation of the conflict, all it does is deligitimize Fatah's government and decrease the chance for peace.

Or I was referring to a different reconciliation effort that I found to be concrete? You yourself relying on one that was made 10 years ago is not exactly a good alternative for you to bank on though. Clearly, its not something that happens plenty before as you claimed.

[Laser101]

Even after all that has happened in Gaza, 57% of Gazans still view the October 7th attack positively. That this is lower than the 73% positive view in the West Bank belies the concern trolling assertion that the conflict will only further radicalize Palestinians, as if they could actually hate Jews any more than they already do. Support for the killing of Jewish civilians is arguably higher among Palestinians than it was among Germans during WWII. The Nazis at least felt they had to make some effort to hide it, whereas it’s a matter of pride and a source of legitimacy for Hamas.

The West Bank Palestinians are the ones under Israeli occupation, so it's hardly surprising that their attitudes are harsher.