Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Muizer]

Well, if you want to be pragmatic, the Palestinians have literally lived there all their life, it's Israel who's taking more and more Palestinian land and creating colonates.

I think the Pragmatic view is that a Palestinian state should be formed based on the 1967 borders. I think most people who support a two state solution do and agree the encroachment of Jewish settlements on the West Bank is at odds with it. As far as I'm concerned this thread is not about that, because 7/10 wasn't about that. It just wasn't. Anyone who thinks it IMHO faces the impossible task of coming up with a reasoning that starts with "By launching a raid on an entirely different part of Israel killing a thousand people and taking hundreds hostage" and ends with "And then the Israelis will evacuate the West Bank and agree to peaceful coexistence in a two state solution". It just doesn't compute at all.

[Muizer]

Well, if you want to be pragmatic, the Palestinians have literally lived there all their life, it's Israel who's taking more and more Palestinian land and creating colonates.

I think the Pragmatic view is that a Palestinian state should be formed based on the 1967 borders. I think most people who support a two state solution do and agree the encroachment of Jewish settlements on the West Bank is at odds with it. As far as I'm concerned this thread is not about that, because 7/10 wasn't about that. It just wasn't. Anyone who thinks it IMHO faces the impossible task of coming up with a reasoning that starts with "By launching a raid on an entirely different part of Israel killing a thousand people and taking hundreds hostage" and ends with "And then the Israelis will evacuate the West Bank and agree to peaceful coexistence in a two state solution". It just doesn't compute at all.

[Laser101]

I'm showing that even when Hamas's numbers are taken at face value (which they absolutely shouldn't be), the claim of genocide is senseless.



There's no intention to wipe out the people of Gaza, so no, by all means it is not a genocide.

You can have a situation where atrocities are being committed without it reaching the level of genocide.

[Ludicus]

According to Finance Minister Smotrich, letting two million people die of hunger is justified and moral.Israel minister condemned for saying starvation of millions in Gaza might be ‘justified and moral’

...sparked international outrage. Separately... “We have seen the video, and reports of sexual abuse of detainees are horrific,” Miller said. The White House also called the reports of rape, torture and abuse of Palestinian prisoners “deeply concerning”.

“Deeply concerning”, says Miller, the hypocrite.... Smotrich, the Israeli nazi, is saying what most of the supporters of Israel are thinking. Is it time for the US to stop funding apartheid and genocide? of course not. That will never happen.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Doesn't really invalidate or explain the apparent hypocrisy in your argument. If you think they're giving inaccurate numbers then you don't use them. Period.

The fact you think you're making some kind of point here is very amusing.

You can have a situation where atrocities are being committed without it reaching the level of genocide.

Indeed, though people like the G word more.

According to Finance Minister Smotrich, letting two million people die of hunger is justified and moral.Israel minister condemned for saying starvation of millions in Gaza might be ‘justified and moral’



“Deeply concerning”, says Miller, the hypocrite.... Smotrich, the Israeli nazi, is saying what most of the supporters of Israel are thinking. Is it time for the US to stop funding apartheid and genocide? of course not. That will never happen.

Smotrich is a moron, and what he said would get him kicked out of any decent government, unfortunately however this isn't one. Luckily though, he has no say over war conduct.

[Ludicus]

Smotrich is a moron... Luckily though, he has no say over war conduct.

As I said, Smotrich says what most of the supporters of Israel are thinking. But does anyone in the U.S. give any importance to the decisions of the International Court of Justice regarding the illegality of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories and the Palestinians' right to self-determination? What do Republicans and Democrats do? Some, more than others, ignore, condemn, intimidate, pressure, and some even threaten the Hague Tribunal.
---
A closer look at the facts shows how the governments that are most vocal in the rhetorical defense of a rules-based international order often violate the most basic rules of that order. By the way, take a look at what is happening with Western Sahara. In late 2020, the Trump administration declared that it recognized Moroccan sovereignty over that territory, flagrantly violating the basic principles of international law enshrined in the United Nations Charter. But since Trump is a declared enemy of a rules-based international order, this was not exactly a surprise. Two years later (2022), the government of Madrid decided to follow Trump's lead and gave its support to a supposed autonomy for Western Sahara within the framework of Moroccan sovereignty. The basic principle of peoples' right to self-determination was overridden by business diplomacy. Two years later (2024), we now have Macron imitating the Spanish government and Trump, officially supporting the Moroccan plan for "autonomy with occupation." A few days ago, we heard from several African countries in the UN's Committee of 24 what one expects to hear from defenders of a rules-based international order: Western Sahara is the last African colony that has yet to achieve its freedom. The only path forward is to hold a referendum on self-determination. It is not enough to be vocal in condemning Russia, which, in Ukraine, violates the rules-based international order.
Question of Western Sahara - Report of the Secretary- July 24
A descolonização não é uma anexação Expresso.
(Decolonization is not annexation, self-determination is not autonomy)

[Lusitanio]

As I said, Smotrich says what most of the supporters of Israel are thinking. But does anyone in the U.S. give any importance to the decisions of the International Court of Justice regarding the illegality of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories and the Palestinians' right to self-determination? What do Republicans and Democrats do? Some, more than others, ignore, condemn, intimidate, pressure, and some even threaten the Hague Tribunal.
---
A closer look at the facts shows how the governments that are most vocal in the rhetorical defense of a rules-based international order often violate the most basic rules of that order. By the way, take a look at what is happening with Western Sahara. In late 2020, the Trump administration declared that it recognized Moroccan sovereignty over that territory, flagrantly violating the basic principles of international law enshrined in the United Nations Charter. But since Trump is a declared enemy of a rules-based international order, this was not exactly a surprise. Two years later (2022), the government of Madrid decided to follow Trump's lead and gave its support to a supposed autonomy for Western Sahara within the framework of Moroccan sovereignty. The basic principle of peoples' right to self-determination was overridden by business diplomacy. Two years later (2024), we now have Macron imitating the Spanish government and Trump, officially supporting the Moroccan plan for "autonomy with occupation." A few days ago, we heard from several African countries in the UN's Committee of 24 what one expects to hear from defenders of a rules-based international order: Western Sahara is the last African colony that has yet to achieve its freedom. The only path forward is to hold a referendum on self-determination. It is not enough to be vocal in condemning Russia, which, in Ukraine, violates the rules-based international order.
Question of Western Sahara - Report of the Secretary- July 24
A descolonização não é uma anexação Expresso.
(Decolonization is not annexation, self-determination is not autonomy)

Indeed. Now a great part of the Israeli society is even defending the rapist guards. There's even video proof of them raping the Palestinian.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/tortur...nd-its-guards/

[Laser101]

Indeed, though people like the G word more.

Probably because people prefer impact to accuracy.

[PointOfViewGun]

Indeed. Now a great part of the Israeli society is even defending the rapist guards. There's even video proof of them raping the Palestinian.
https://www.timesofisrael.com/tortur...nd-its-guards/

Israeli lawmaker defends alleged rape of Hamas prisoner as far-right protesters rage over IDF troops' detention

Ultra-right-wing Israeli nationalists stormed two military facilities late Monday, protesting the detention and questioning of nine Israel Defense Forces reservists suspected of raping and abusing a Palestinian prisoner whose injuries were so bad he had to be hospitalized. Social media videos show guards at the Sde Teiman military base and prison, near Beersheba in southern Israel, shouting at and pushing military police who'd arrived to question the reservists, seemingly in defense of the suspects.

A member of Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's Likud party, speaking Monday at a meeting of lawmakers, justified the rape and abuse of Palestinian prisoners, shouting angrily at colleagues questioning the alleged behavior that anything was legitimate to do to "terrorists" in custody.

Lawmaker Hanoch Milwidsky was asked as he defended the alleged abuse whether it was legitimate, "to insert a stick into a person's rectum?"
"Yes!" he shouted in reply to his fellow parliamentarian. "If he is a Nukhba [Hamas militant], everything is legitimate to do! Everything!"

Israel's far-right National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir, who's drawn U.S. reprimands with his provocative actions since the war started, wrote in a post on social media: "Take your hands off the reservists."

The response to this is ridiculous.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

As I said, Smotrich says what most of the supporters of Israel are thinking.

Nope. And if you look at polls, you'd see that Smotrich isn't popular in Israel right now, either.

4 seats is the bare minimum to pass. Smotrich is growing politically irrelevant, so he's trying to make some noise.

But does anyone in the U.S. give any importance to the decisions of the International Court of Justice regarding the illegality of Israel's occupation of Palestinian territories and the Palestinians' right to self-determination? What do Republicans and Democrats do? Some, more than others, ignore, condemn, intimidate, pressure, and some even threaten the Hague Tribunal.

What's your proposal, just pull out of the WB? Hamas will take over within a month or two, and you'll have Gaza on steroids. The only way forward is a negotiated two state solution, not unilateral action.

[Laser101]

Israeli lawmaker defends alleged rape of Hamas prisoner as far-right protesters rage over IDF troops' detention

The response to this is ridiculous.

It is pretty much universally true that those who make a big deal about opposing atrocities almost invariably don't care when it's against the people they don't like.

Israel at least cares about protecting its own people if nothing else, which is more than can be said for Hamas.

[PointOfViewGun]

What's your proposal, just pull out of the WB? Hamas will take over within a month or two, and you'll have Gaza on steroids. The only way forward is a negotiated two state solution, not unilateral action.

Why can Israel do unilateral action but not Palestine then?

Israel at least cares about protecting its own people if nothing else, which is more than can be said for Hamas.

Israel cares about life of its people as much as Hamas cares about Palestinians.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Why can Israel do unilateral action but not Palestine then?

Are you seriously trying to argue they aren't undertaking any unilateral actions..?

Israel cares about life of its people as much as Hamas cares about Palestinians.

This statement couldn't be any further from the truth.

[PointOfViewGun]

Are you seriously trying to argue they aren't undertaking any unilateral actions..?

What I asked you was quite simple and contained no argument suggesting what you're asking me now. Why are you trying to deflect such a simple question?

This statement couldn't be any further from the truth.

If that was the case Israel would be more interested in countering October 7 attack which they knew was coming and taking hostages out of Gaza, among other things.

[Ludicus]

Indeed. Now a great part of the Israeli society is even defending the rapist guards. There's even video proof of them raping the Palestinian.

At a certain point in its history, Israel lost its way. Taken over by the most extreme ideologies, affected by a messianic religiosity that sees the Jews as the chosen people, it has assumed that the end justifies the means and that everything is permitted with the blessing of its Western allies (the latter always mincing their words so as not to be accused of anti-Semitism). Israeli society is completely anesthetized to Palestinian suffering, and a substantial part of it even celebrates the practice of systematic human rights violations. As Gedion Levy writes in Haaretz, the B'Tselem report "is not just about what is happening in Israel's prisons; it is a report about Israel." Therefore, "anyone who wants to know what Israel is should read this report before any other document about Israeli democracy"
Welcome to Hell: B'Tselem's Ignored Abuse Report Shows Shows Israel's True Face- Haaretz.

--
Joseph Borrel on X:
“Horrified by images from a sheltering school in Gaza hit by an Israeli strike, w/ reportedly dozens of Palestinian victims. At least 10 schools were targeted in the last weeks. There’s no justification for these massacres. We are dismayed by the terrible overall death toll. We regret & condemn Minister Smotrich opposition to a deal. A ceasefire is the only way to stop the killing of civilians and secure the hostages’ release”

(Kamala Harris: do you want Trump win?)
---
This Sodom has been going on for more than 300 days. At one of their daily orgies, one of the Israeli soldiers says: "we are live streaming for BenGvir!".
Welcome to Hell: The Israeli Prison System as a Network
Wednesday on Israel’s Channel 12

Knesset, 29 July:
“To insert a stick in a person’s rectum, is that legitimate?” asked Ahmad Tibi, a Palestinian lawmaker “Yes! If he is a Nukhba everything is legitimate to do him” screamed Milwidsky (Likud Party) back. Video: B.M.

Everything is legitimate”! In fact, they also say that it is moral and legitimate to starve more than two million Palestinians to death- and they still complain about the international community “The world won't let us starve #Gaza" (Smotrich). Netanyahu commands this mob of criminals, the Israeli military has set aside all the rules of the Geneva Convention and assumed that the entire population of Gaza is a legitimate target.

[Laser101]

If that was the case Israel would be more interested in countering October 7 attack which they knew was coming and taking hostages out of Gaza, among other things.

It's pretty clear that there were a number of castastrophic security screw-ups around the October 7 attack, but it seems like a lot of Israelis are rather pissed off about that fact. If anyone were to be proven to have let it happen deliberately though, they'd probably be lynched in short order (not necessarily literally).

And the Israelis clearly care about getting their hostages back; if anything the issue is that they don't care how many Palestinians they kill to do that.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's pretty clear that there were a number of castastrophic security screw-ups around the October 7 attack, but it seems like a lot of Israelis are rather pissed off about that fact. If anyone were to be proven to have let it happen deliberately though, they'd probably be lynched in short order (not necessarily literally).

Hence:

Netanyahu rejects calls for immediate inquiry into 7 October security failures

The Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu, has rejected calls for an immediate independent inquiry into the security failures that allowed the deadliest attack in his country’s history.

And the Israelis clearly care about getting their hostages back; if anything the issue is that they don't care how many Palestinians they kill to do that.

Israelis do care. Netanyahu administration doesn't. Just like Palestinians do but Hamas doesn't.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

What I asked you was quite simple and contained no argument suggesting what you're asking me now. Why are you trying to deflect such a simple question?

I don't think either side should be taking any unilateral action. Both, however, are.

If that was the case Israel would be more interested in countering October 7 attack which they knew was coming and taking hostages out of Gaza, among other things.

Israel did not know it was coming. Some in the intelligence community knew Hamas was making such plans, but thought it was too ambitious and implausible. Intelligence has to constantly assess hundreds if not thousands of potential threats, and sometimes mistakes are made. Hamas has never done anything even remotely close to 7/10, so this was thought to be unrealistic. Stop spreading conspiracy theories.

As for hostages, IDF has been rescuing them, whenever it can.

Hence:

Netanyahu rejects calls for immediate inquiry into 7 October security failures

Because his government failed to act, moved troops to the WB because of tensions it itself raised, and never took responsibility. Not because they deliberately allowed this to happen to further their evil plans.

Israelis do care. Netanyahu administration doesn't. Just like Palestinians do but Hamas doesn't.

This is the same Netanyahu that released 1000 terrorists to bring back 1 soldier. One of those terrorists was Yahya Sinwar.
The issue is the terms. Netanyahu wants the war to be resumed after the deal is concluded, Hamas wants it to end so they can declare victory.

[Ludicus]

nhytgbvfeco2, wake up...the messianic supremacist religiosity that underlies the attitudes and policies of the Israeli supremacist government is rooted in an extreme interpretation of Judaism, which promotes Jewish exclusivity over Palestine. This view dehumanizes Palestinians and justifies gross violations of basic human rights.

Nathan Thrall is an American-Jewish author, essayist, and journalist based in Jerusalem. Thrall won the 2024 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction. "A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy" is a case study in dehumanization. All Book Marks reviews for A Day in the Life of Abed Salama

David Shulman, Professor Emeritus at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel Prize for Religious Studies in 2016, wrote: “I know of no other writing on Israel and Palestine that reaches this depth of perception and understanding. One could read the book as a précis of modern Palestinian history embedded in the personal memories of many individuals, each of them drawn in stark, telling detail. To get to know them even a little is a rare gift, far more useful than the many standard, distanced histories of Palestine.”

In the New York Review, Israel: The Way Out Shulman wrote ” If Israel is to survive, physically and spiritually, it needs to undergo, collectively, a sea change in its vision of reality and face some unpleasant though obvious fact”

Interview with Nathan. The Physical and Invisible Walls that Determine the Lives of Palestinians

(...) As shocking as it may be to hear this, I believe that there is a better chance of ending this system of oppression today than there was on October 6th. The reason for that is very simple. This is a contest between two grossly unequal parties. One is Israel, a nuclear armed regional power with the backing of the strongest state in the world. And the other is a party that is politically divided, militarily weak, barely holds any territory, and even what it ostensibly holds is still controlled by Israel. It really has no ability to impose the kinds of costs that would be necessary to overturn the system. The problem has been that the stronger party has not had a strong enough incentive to change the system.

For the first time in many years, ordinary Israelis find themselves with a strong incentive to change the system that was in place prior to October 7. Change could come if the Israeli public is convinced that the price that they are paying for endless occupation is too high and that something else ought to replace it (...)

It will also be up to people around the world, and particularly in the U.S., to make clear to their governments that they do not support the continuation of more than half a century of ethnonational domination, that they do not support the collective punishment of two million people in Gaza.

What explains Israel rejoicing of Palestinians deaths? Why is so hard to accept the truth?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

nhytgbvfeco2, wake up...the messianic supremacist religiosity that underlies the attitudes and policies of the Israeli supremacist government is rooted in an extreme interpretation of Judaism, which promotes Jewish exclusivity over Palestine. This view dehumanizes Palestinians and justifies gross violations of basic human rights.

Lmfao, Ludicus, I cannot take such a statement seriously.
What do you think the word 'messianic' means?

The policies of the Israeli government are not what you describe them as. Sure, it has 2 extremist parties within it (technically 3, but they all ran under a single ticket in the election and one of them has only 1 member), but these parties hold 14 seats out of the coalition's 64. I won't pretend like the Likud doesn't have people who are on the extreme, but those are a handful.

Nathan Thrall is an American-Jewish author, essayist, and journalist based in Jerusalem. Thrall won the 2024 Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction. "A Day in the Life of Abed Salama: Anatomy of a Jerusalem Tragedy" is a case study in dehumanization. All Book Marks reviews for A Day in the Life of Abed Salama

David Shulman, Professor Emeritus at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, Israel Prize for Religious Studies in 2016, wrote: “I know of no other writing on Israel and Palestine that reaches this depth of perception and understanding. One could read the book as a précis of modern Palestinian history embedded in the personal memories of many individuals, each of them drawn in stark, telling detail. To get to know them even a little is a rare gift, far more useful than the many standard, distanced histories of Palestine.”

In the New York Review, Israel: The Way Out Shulman wrote ” If Israel is to survive, physically and spiritually, it needs to undergo, collectively, a sea change in its vision of reality and face some unpleasant though obvious fact”

Interview with Nathan. The Physical and Invisible Walls that Determine the Lives of Palestinians



What explains Israel rejoicing of Palestinians deaths? Why is so hard to accept the truth?

I'm sorry, but one has to be especially delusional to think that 7/10 could possibly convince the Israeli public that they need to give Hamas concessions and full control. If anything, it led to more Israelis thinking a two state solution to be impossible. It also led to a drop in support among palestinians.