Hamas attacks southern Israel

[agnes69]

The Wall Street Journal published material revealing the contents of correspondence between the head of the military wing of the terrorist group Hamas, Yahya Sinwar, and other officials of the organization. His messages expressed contempt for human life and saw continued fighting and Palestinian Arab casualties as a way to achieve his goals.

https://www.wsj.com/world/middle-eas...d=hp_lead_pos1

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Bombings are not occurring at an equally spread intervals to use 8+ months campaign as one bombing campaign. Even if we use that kind of logic we see that the Israeli bombardment even surpassed the destruction of Raqqa. So, not really, I won't really struggle to find any such examples. Israel's bombing of Gaza is brutal, extensive and often unrelated to fighting Hamas as demonstrated by Israeli forces themselves putting up videos of how they demolish entire residential neighborhoods and government buildings (such as the parliament building of Gaza) through the use of well-placed charges.

Was Raqqa carpet bombing, povg?

[PointOfViewGun]

Was Raqqa carpet bombing, povg?

Yeah, pretty much. Raqqa became the symbol of urban destruction of modern warfare as a result.

[Ludicus]

It seeks to wipe out Israel and a second Holocaust, and to establish a caliphate..Hamas does not seek national liberation, Ludicus

A Caliphate! my dear nhytgbvfeco2, that's not true. POLITICO agrees with me that a political solution is not impossible. Hamas and ISIS Are Not the Same — and That Matters- POLITICO

Pretending the two terrorist groups are the same will only make it harder to protect Israel and end the war.

(...) As a former leader of a Salafi militant group sympathetic to ISIS recently told us, “There is a world of difference between ISIS and Hamas.” it seeks a state with a seat at the United Nations and in regional organizations like the Arab League. Its objectives are local.

The Islamic State, on the other hand, has transnational goals and is a fundamentalist religious organization. ISIS seeks to build a global caliphate

Hamas-ruled Gaza is certainly no democratic beacon, but ISIS members and supporters castigate Hamas for engaging in the electoral process, as it did in 2006 when Hamas won an election in Gaza with 44 percent of the vote.
Hamas “accepts the sovereignty of man” and denies God’s “sovereignty and supremacy,” the ISIS sympathizer contends. “

Indeed, one other reason why ISIS views Hamas with disdain is that Hamas has tolerated other religious groups in Gaza, something ISIS would never do.

The distinctions between Hamas and ISIS will also impact how the current conflict ultimately comes to an end.

With ISIS, there was never any room for negotiation.

Unlike ISIS, some of Hamas’ goals are actually political, and so there will be no effective solution to the crisis unless it also includes a political resolution.

The ongoing effort to demolish Hamas could very well prove counterproductive as civilian deaths mount and global public opinion turns against Israel and, by extension, the United States. Pursuing a solely kinetic response to Hamas may end up weakening the group, but it is unlikely to destroy it completely.

The fallout could lead to an even more extreme iteration of the group — Hamas 2.0 — that could rise from the ashes in Gaza and continue perpetrating acts of violence and terrorism against Israel

Portugal had this experience in Angola with the UPA:the barbaric massacre it committed in Angola was worse than that of Hamas in Israel. Today it's a peaceful political movement

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Hamas again raises the possibility of a 2-state compromise
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Five years at the helm of the European Commission, and Ursula von der Leyen has managed to become the first high-ranking EU official to be accused of "complicity in war crimes and genocide" by none other than the Geneva International Peace Research Institute. The woman who a year ago assured that Israel was "a vibrant democracy," and who sided with an occupying power that blatantly violates international law, carrying out what several international organizations classify as genocide, dared to send "to Moscow" the young protesters who demonstrated against her in the city of Porto, and who were also treated "vibrantly" by the police and von der Leyen's supporters living in the "free Porto."

Watch the violence of von der Leyen's supporters living in the "free Porto"

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Carlos Azevedo on X

Today, Ursula von der Leyen came to Porto to support the governmental party's candidate for the European elections. Pro-Palestine protesters interrupted her speech, and she told them, "If you were in Moscow, you would be arrested in 2 minutes." And so, our police arrested some.

[Nicointuill]

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[Papay]

(245) War on Gaza: Footage shows summary executions of Palestinians by Israeli soldiers - YouTube

Videos emerge with summary executions of civilians by Israeli army

[Kyriakos]

^Horrible.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

A Caliphate! my dear nhytgbvfeco2, that's not true.

Yeah, it is.
"Recently the Hamas politician Fathi Hammad went on TV to proclaim that the organization’s next step would be to declare a caliphate—a concept that the Islamic State had all but trademarked for its use in jihadist circles. The caliphate would be based in Jerusalem."

Portugal had this experience in Angola with the UPA:the barbaric massacre it committed in Angola was worse than that of Hamas in Israel. Today it's a peaceful political movement

Did the UPA consider the entire country of Portugal an occupation, and seek its destruction, and the annahilation of its entire population? No? Not quite the same then, is it?
There are palestinian groups that seek a two state solution, and there are those who seek a two holocaust solution. Support the former, not the latter.

[Kyriakos]

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy; to think that the enemy is out to kill every last jew (nevermind that Hamas has demonstrated it can't do it, moreover it has a 1/40 kill/death ratio; just stick to their words, though since it helps you) and so it's ok to be the brute that Israel currently very obviously is. But the wondrous thing is how you can imagine that keeping massacring palestinians (over 10.000 kids etc) will somehow make you safer, as if those people have no memory and magically won't hate you even more. People, let's not forget, that you have been brutally occupying for decades.
Israel isn't alone in this mentality, of course. Many of its accusers also have it. Doesn't matter at the moment, because Israel is the one very publicly butchering tens of thousands.

[PointOfViewGun]

I wonder how many amputated or severely injured via other means that this war is producing in Gaza. That's gonna be the real toll of this war and drive a renewed hatred of Israel.

[Muizer]

@Kyriakos,

The problem with your position as I understand it is that is a political impossibility. There is no governing body with agency on the ground that is politically answerable to* both the population of Israel's and that of Gaza. There is no authority who will have to explain the combined death toll to those combined people. That is quite fundamentally an outsider's perspective and as such is, crucially, somewhat gratuitous: As outsiders we have the 'luxury' to make such statements as 'it would have been wiser if Israel had not invaded Gaza' because we do not have to explain to the people in our care how much (or little) we value their lives in relation to those under the care of some other authority that is threatening them.

* please note: 'to', not 'for'. I'm not talking about moral considerations but about political necessity.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It's a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy; to think that the enemy is out to kill every last jew (nevermind that Hamas has demonstrated it can't do it, moreover it has a 1/40 kill/death ratio; just stick to their words, though since it helps you) and so it's ok to be the brute that Israel currently very obviously is. But the wondrous thing is how you can imagine that keeping massacring palestinians (over 10.000 kids etc) will somehow make you safer, as if those people have no memory and magically won't hate you even more. People, let's not forget, that you have been brutally occupying for decades.
Israel isn't alone in this mentality, of course. Many of its accusers also have it. Doesn't matter at the moment, because Israel is the one very publicly butchering tens of thousands.

Kyriakos, if that's how people worked, why aren't Jews today murdering Germans on sight for what they did during the Holocaust? Why aren't the Germans still fighting the British and Americans for Dresden? The Japanese killing every American they see?
Yes, destroying Hamas would make every single Jew in the world safer. Allowing it to remain in power in Gaza is a threat to the life of every Jew, Israeli or not. Once it is gone a more moderate entity can take control over Gaza, be it the PA or something new. Then we can move on towards peace, and not a moment earlier.

[Kyriakos]

Israel was murdering germans on sight (referring to the nazi hunters), for a long while. Moreover it is the eternal receiver of current Germany's support, monetary and diplomatic, due to either their guilt for being monsters, or calculation that they can't do otherwise - I think it's primarily the latter, so not even out of actual remorse/humanism.
You can't expect torturing palestinians as occupied people, gunning them down (also in West Bank, so it's not Hamas or October 7 at all there, just regular israeli attitude to palestinians) and be safer just because you think israelis are worth more.
Yes, Israel is an inherently very unsafe state. Again, it's not the only country in such, and neither has it reacted less or even just as violently as others. Exceptionalism is itself dangerous.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Israel was murdering germans on sight (referring to the nazi hunters), for a long while. Moreover it is the eternal receiver of current Germany's support, monetary and diplomatic, due to either their guilt for being monsters, or calculation that they can't do otherwise - I think it's primarily the latter, so not even out of actual remorse/humanism.

Are you seriously comparing people who killed actual nazis, to a terrorist organisation murdering Jewish civilians? are those things comparable in your mind?

You can't expect torturing palestinians as occupied people, gunning them down (also in West Bank, so it's not Hamas or October 7 at all there, just regular israeli attitude to palestinians) and be safer just because you think israelis are worth more.

FYI, Hamas is also present in the WB. As are other terror groups, such as the 'Lion's den', the Islamic Jihad, and others. Jenin for example is run by them, de-facto.

Yes, Israel is an inherently very unsafe state. Again, it's not the only country in such, and neither has it reacted less or even just as violently as others. Exceptionalism is itself dangerous.

And yet, as a Jew, I'm infinitely safer in Israel than in any other country.

[Kyriakos]

Then you should also consider that Palestinians don't even have a country, nor will they move just because israelis think they are unique in being unsafe everywhere else (which is, if we are being honest, pretty bizarre to believe).
What reason is there to believe that Israel formed (say) in a part of Germany (much like Germany was forced to give territory to Poland, it would have given territory for a country of Israel) would be more unsafe than Israel surrounded by endless millions of arabs? The selection of Palestine was by all we can see one of the actually least safe options.
Yes, it has obvious ties to 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean it was ever going to be more safe than other options.

And ok, that decision is in the past, can't change it now. But what can change is to finally allow Palestine to be its own country. It's the only way that peace can ever be achieved - or to put it otherwise: if there is any possibility for peace, then it clearly presupposes Palestine being a country.

[PointOfViewGun]

For years Israel chose to empower the loud enemy, Hamas, instead of the cooperative enemy, the Palestinian Authority (PA). It's not a secret that they chose to deal with Hamas over the PA because battling Hamas garnered them better international support compared to battling the PA. It was an Israeli decision to make Hamas the only lifeline of Gaza. Netanyahu himself stressed the fact that keeping Gaza and West Bank administration separate is key in keeping a Palestinian state from happening. For this reason, it is rather hilarious to hear people whine about getting rid of Hamas. If one truly wants to get rid of Hamas one needs to get rid of the current Israeli administration and its hypocritical policy of denying Palestinian statehood.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Then you should also consider that Palestinians don't even have a country, nor will they move just because israelis think they are unique in being unsafe everywhere else (which is, if we are being honest, pretty bizarre to believe).

Palestinians aren't being attacked/killed based on their ethnic/religious identity. However, bear in mind that I'm not arguing against palestinian statehood. I've been saying all along, I believe in a two state solution.
No one is asking them to move.
Bizzare? Really now? I saw Swastika's graffiti'd on walls first hand in the Netherlands, Anti-Semetism in Europe and the US has reached levels not seen since the Holocaust, and whenever I'm in Europe and someone asks me where I'm from, I'm terrified to answer honestly, and have to first look around to see who's around. Usually I just say I'm from Ukraine.

What reason is there to believe that Israel formed (say) in a part of Germany (much like Germany was forced to give territory to Poland, it would have given territory for a country of Israel) would be more unsafe than Israel surrounded by endless millions of arabs? The selection of Palestine was by all we can see one of the actually least safe options.
Yes, it has obvious ties to 2000 years ago. But that doesn't mean it was ever going to be more safe than other options.

Why was Armenia established where it is today? Why don't we just move it to Uganda, wouldn't Armenians be safer there?
Israel's location wasn't chosen at random. It was chosen because it's the only location the Jews as a people had historic, cultural, and yes religious, ties to. Israel was going to be established regardless of the Holocaust. Even during the pogroms in Russia, when Jews were offered to establish a homeland in Uganda, the Russian Jews refused to move to some random place. They wanted to move to the land of their ancestors, and would rather remain in peril and risk their lives than to give up on it.

And ok, that decision is in the past, can't change it now. But what can change is to finally allow Palestine to be its own country. It's the only way that peace can ever be achieved - or to put it otherwise: if there is any possibility for peace, then it clearly presupposes Palestine being a country.

Agreed. A two state solution is the only way forward.

[PointOfViewGun]

Armenia wasn't established where it is today because a bunch of Armenians decided to move to the location of Armenia in the antiquity.

Jews had other options to settle in. Thessaloniki was a much safer choice and carried a lot of Jewish heritage which was attributed to the beauty and richness of the city. The Levant was one of the much more dangerous options. Israel's current location is not a result of a logical choice but one of obsession.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Armenia wasn't established where it is today because a bunch of Armenians decided to move to the location of Armenia in the antiquity.

Jews had other options to settle in. Thessaloniki was a much safer choice and carried a lot of Jewish heritage which was attributed to the beauty and richness of the city. The Levant was one of the much more dangerous options. Israel's current location is not a result of a logical choice but one of obsession.

Thessaloniki carried the Jewish heritage of 1 single Jewish community, which by that point had been practically extinguished, with an estimated over 90% of it being killed.
And may I ask, what is this insistance on having Israel be in Europe? Jews are not Europeans.

You're right in the end, though. Jews are obsessed with their native homeland.

[PointOfViewGun]

Thessaloniki carried the Jewish heritage of 1 single Jewish community, which by that point had been practically extinguished, with an estimated over 90% of it being killed.
And may I ask, what is this insistance on having Israel be in Europe? Jews are not Europeans.

You're right in the end, though. Jews are obsessed with their native homeland.

Jews that formed Israel were largely European. Founder of Likud and 6th president of Israel, Menachem Begin, born in present day Belarus. 1st prime minister of Israel, David Ben-Gurion, born in Poland. 1st president of Israel, Chaim Weizmann, born in Russia. We have to pass three decades to find a president born in the Levant, Yitzhak Navon. Modern Israel is largely a product of European Jews.

Thessaloniki is the only city with continued Jewish majority for hundreds of years. That it lost 90% of its Jewish population because of Nazis doesn't take away from its value as a Jewish motherland (the city was called the mother of Israel). It's not an insistence of Israel being in Europe. If a city like Thessaloniki existed in south Africa it would be an equally better option. However, it's position between Europe and Asia would make it a powerhouse for development.