Hamas attacks southern Israel

[PointOfViewGun]

I wanted to give you a chance to resolve it but fine, I'll try to do it for you as best I can:
If I put your two quotes together, you get this:
"[The court order says] Israel can battle Hamas but not in a way that endangers the civilians in Gaza but I do not argue [the court order says] Israel can keep on invading Rafah if they don't target civilians."
I see two elements here that could resolve a contradiction, but both can be dismissed:
1) the first talks of 'endangering lives' and the latter of 'targeting civilians'. But in the context of the court order we're discussing, we can assume both refer to the same thing.
2) the first talks of conditions that must be met to permit Israeli military actions in 'Gaza' and the latter for 'Rafah'. But as I have argued at lenth, in the context of the court order, there is no such distinction between the two locations. It does not say Israel can do one thing in Gaza and another in Rafah.
Over to you.
I know that, but I'm just looking at what is written in the order. I am assuming that with 15 judges deliberating the text, every word and every comma has been weighed at length. I am not going to assume they put this text out in the world and then go "ah well, yeah we wrote something down, but 'everybody knows what we actually meant'". THAT would be to not take the judges seriously.

No contradiction even in the poorly stitched quotes you use. The culprit is simply your insistence on ignoring what's already been argued and basic logic. It's pointless to question the scope of a verdict when the court was not asked to consider the entire concept of harming civilians. The court was asked to evaluate and give a verdict on Rafah specifically given its overcrowded situation. No problem with the wording, syntax or grammar. "THAT" would be making relevancy of concepts up to whine about what the court ordered.

You think ChatGPT can tell you I have knowingly been telling untruths with the intent to deceive or mislead? You think it can judge my integrity, as you have been doing time and again?

When the lie you uttered is so basic, going against what multiple people pointed out with references to articles, and your failure to address the correction of the falsehood you presented, pretty much. Even a well-developed AI like ChatGPT would not assume that you made such a blatant error unknowingly and kept silent about it by accident.

[Muizer]

No contradiction even in the poorly stitched quotes you use.

You forgot the 'because' part.

When the lie you uttered is so basic, going against what multiple people pointed out with references to articles, and your failure to address the correction of the falsehood you presented, pretty much. Even a well-developed AI like ChatGPT would not assume that you made such a blatant error unknowingly and kept silent about it by accident.

You're just demonstrating to everyone here that you're just going attack whatever I say by any means. I trust others will recognize that character assassination is a real poor substitute for argumentation.

[Ludicus]

Now even GPTChat is being brought into the discussion... someone should do a bit of pedagogy,and explain to the EU ministers that they don't understand anything the ICJ has decided.
EU mulls 'consequences' if Israel continues Rafah offensives

Brussels is preparing to issue an ultimatum to Israel, several officials and diplomats told Playbook — comply with the International Court of Justice’s ruling demanding an immediate halt to its military offensive in Rafah, or face “consequences” that could affect its economic relationship with the Union.

Although, it must be said, given the history of scandalous passivity on the part of the main players, I find it hard to believe that this will happen.
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Obeying the ICJ Order Is Israel's Last Opportunity to Save Itself From Becoming a Pariah State.- Haaretz..

Israel is bordering on a pariah state in most of the world outside of the United States," said Pinkas, who has served as Chief of Staff to two of Israel's Ministers of Foreign Affairs. But he also believes this is reversible, with "a radical political change inside of Israel.

--
Manuel Carvalho, the chief editor of Jornal Público, wrote an outstanding article today titled "The Democracy Dying in the Sands of Gaza," with the subtitle "Israel has become a terrorist state that threatens world peace, human rights, and the values of democracy,” from which I quote a few paragraphs:

"Much has already been said, but there is still more to say about the crimes that Israel is committing in the Gaza Strip against the Palestinian population. There was a beginning when it made sense to stretch the limits of ethics to accommodate the reprisal on a territory that until recently was controlled by Hamas terrorists. There was a moment of doubt. All of that is now exhausted. The discussion about the place of lucidity and hatred, the doubts about legitimacy and barbarism, and the leniency towards the excesses and abuses inherent in war have ceased to make sense.

What is happening today in Gaza only authorizes us to have the same certainty we had in Srebrenica, in Bucha, or in the horrors of any ethnic cleansing, in Rwanda or in Myanmar: Israel has become a terrorist state that threatens world peace, human rights, and the values of democracy.

In such moments, the West always felt the commotion that pressures democratic governments to impose limits on the barbarians. Whether through embargoes, confiscations, sanctions, or even military interventions, Europe and the United States have always been able to act in the name of humanity to stop the madness of autocrats or warlords. This time, none of that happens. The liberal democracies of the West have abdicated from displaying their indignation without reservations about how the corrupt and extremist elite that governs Israel is massacring innocents. They have thus become accomplices. Legitimizing agents of the massacre. By ceasing to fight for their values, they have accepted to side with those who violate them every day.

This opinion space is usually dedicated to national issues, but there are moments when what happens abroad is as national, or ours, as the choice of our government. It happens in the Gaza Strip.
Months of invasion and violations of international humanitarian law began to cause that dissolving climate in people where everything settles and everything becomes relative. A kind of civic anesthesia taking hold of everyone. The comparison between Israel, a democracy, and Hamas, a heinous terrorist group, has served as a pretext for initial complacency. With the exception of student communities all over the world, barbarism began to be accepted as the new normal. As if the historical victim status of the Jewish people gave them unlimited credit to kill innocents. As if it were not evident to everyone that Israel is getting closer and closer to Hamas, if not in form, at least in substance.

Condemning Israel today without reservations or fear of being accused of anti-Semitism is much more than expressing empathy for Gaza's suffering and repulsion for the coldness and meticulousness with which a highly professional army destroys their aspirations and lives. It is also a way of demanding that Western powers set aside cynicism. The European Union and the United States, who quickly and rightly isolated Russia for violating Ukraine's sovereignty, should have the same attitude towards Israel. And it's not about comparing what happens on one side or the other. It is merely about noting that in matters of international rights or respect for international law, there cannot be double standards.
Former American President Franklin D. Roosevelt's thesis about dictator Rafael Trujillo (‘he may be a son of a , but he's our son of a ’) continues to prevail with the wrapping of cynicism and moral relativism.
The issue at hand is easy to determine: a regime that meticulously strives to destroy cities, roads, hospitals, in short, everything that is basic for a society to function, can only be dominated by scoundrels as despicable as the gallery of contemporary dictators of the ilk of Milosevic, Putin, or Assad.

The most that Hamas can do at this stage of the conflict is to fire some rockets doomed to die in Israel's defense shield ...Hamas is a ghost that only exists as a pretext to legitimize the destruction of what remains of Gaza and its population.

As irritating as the slogans of those who want a Palestine to the sea or blatantly anti-Semitic slogans may be, the protests of students ended up being the only sign of reason in a fight in which the West loses every day. A reflection of free societies that do not condone the violence of a powerful state against innocents and demand that decency and respect for their historical memory return to Tel Aviv.

This is not a country fighting to survive in the Six-Day War or the Yom Kippur War to which neighboring countries forced it.

It is a country dropping bombs on plastic tents where refugees from its war survive. After Gaza, it has become a pariah state, despicable, dominated by radical extremism, deserving the most absolute condemnation and the deepest contempt."

[PointOfViewGun]

You forgot the 'because' part.
You're just demonstrating to everyone here that you're just going attack whatever I say by any means. I trust others will recognize that character assassination is a real poor substitute for argumentation.

You did lie about a basic fact on October 7. This is not me trying to attack whatever you say. Its you deflecting and me not letting it go. Quite simple.

[Muizer]

@Ludicus, IMHO what is going on in Gaza with Israel is much more prosaic. 7/10 created a political necessity for the Israeli government to respond. Now we're at a stage where Israel is expected to have gained enough control to start implementing an exit strategy ........... and they do not have one. The war-time coalition is fracturing, because the opposition wants something diametrically opposed to what the far right propping up Netanyahu wants. And Netanyahu is basically dragging his feat to avoid having to make a decision either way. Not that is indeed criminal, because it's now purely about his political survival. But all the talk about this being yet another step in a grand plan that is somehow being baked into the nature of Israel ever since 1948 is and has always been just rhetorical BS.

[Ludicus]

Biden made a proposal to the world on behalf of Israel that has already been rejected by Netanyahu.

Netanyahu on X,

The Prime Minister's Office:
Israel's conditions for ending the war have not changed: The destruction of Hamas military and governing capabilities, the freeing of all hostages and ensuring that Gaza no longer poses a threat to Israel.

Israel PM Benjamin Netanyahu rejects Biden's ceasefire
---

... But all the talk about this being yet another step in a grand plan that is somehow being baked into the nature of Israel ever since 1948 is and has always been just rhetorical BS.

Muizer, don't put that way, it's a misplaced irony. Long before Gaza, Israel had lost all political legitimacy to be accepted as a state that respects international law and defends the foundations of its own creation.70 years of arrogant disobedience to UN resolutions, of systematic and planned occupation, of land stolen from the Palestinians, of turning Gaza into the world's largest concentration camp, all this led to what Guterres rightly said were the antecedents of October 7. There's a lot to say about the past, but let's leave it aside for a moment: let’s talk about the present. Israeli views of Gaza war split, Pew Research finds

A survey by Pew Research found only 1 in 5 Israelis said the military campaign in Gaza had gone too far.

The worst shame is realizing that, sadly, a significant majority of the people of Israel are in solidarity with a government of criminals. They are calling for a temporary truce, allowing all the hostages to be released and the operation in Gaza to continue - if possible, with the expulsion of all 3.2 million Palestinians to Egyptian Sinai, Jordan or Mars.
In the West Bank, where 800,000 Israelis currently live, we see all kinds of abuses against Palestinians, where 700 people have been killed since October. It is Israeli civilians who are attacking the transports bringing food to the besieged Gaza Strip.Hardly any voices are heard in Israel to distance themselves from this collective drunkenness of hatred, blindness, and arrogance. There are some noble exceptions, but they are few, as the survey you mention above shows.
Tell me, who in Israel disagrees with Nikki Haley's moral compass ?
Very few.

[Abdülmecid I]

Please remember to discuss in good faith and refrain from constantly accusing your interlocutor of lying.

[Ludicus]

Israel-Gaza war live: UN experts urge all countries to ...

What does the Israeli Biden led ceasefire proposal consist of?

---
Calling Biden's honest and well-intentioned proposal an "Israeli peace proposal" can only make us laugh. This proposal has already been categorically rejected by the extremist government of Netanyahu, Smotrich, and Ben-Gvir. It's worth recalling the terms of the proposal.
I quote the Guardian today: "A first phase would consist of a six-week-long and extendable ceasefire in which Hamas would release 'a number of hostages' including women, and elderly and wounded people, in return for an Israeli withdrawal from populated parts of Gaza and the freeing of hundreds of Palestinian prisoners. In the second phase, also of six weeks, all remaining hostages would be released, Israel would completely withdraw from Gaza, and both parties would commit to a lasting truce. In the third, major reconstruction in the decimated strip would begin."

The Israeli government says the war will continue until the end of the year—they are eagerly waiting for Trump to be elected President. There's no need to hear the speech Netanyahu will soon give in the American Congress to guess what he will do: he will humiliate and ridicule Biden, as he did with Obama a few years ago. Obama wasn't even present in Congress at that time. And he did the right thing. Nancy Pelosi, at the time, said that Netanyahu's speech was "insulting to the intelligence of the United States."

[Muizer]

What does this plan say about who will be left in control of Gaza once Israel retreat? For instance, who is going to run the humanitarian aid and reconstruction effort? That seems to be too big an issue to file under 'to be determined'.

[Kyriakos]

It says that it tries to prevent massacred palestinians reaching 100K.

[Muizer]

It says that it tries to prevent massacred palestinians reaching 100K.

There's a difference between having an objective and having a plan. This is supposed to be a plan.

[PointOfViewGun]

It's an Israeli tactic to obfuscate anyone in Gaza as being a blood-thirsty Hamas member. Most of the people carrying out day to day duties of the administration in Gaza likely has nothing to do with Hamas. That they managed to get only about a few tens of thousands of fighters from a population pool of about 2 million people while even controlling all the money entering Gaza shows how widespread their ideology really is.

[Siblesz]

It's an Israeli tactic to obfuscate anyone in Gaza as being a blood-thirsty Hamas member. Most of the people carrying out day to day duties of the administration in Gaza likely has nothing to do with Hamas. That they managed to get only about a few tens of thousands of fighters from a population pool of about 2 million people while even controlling all the money entering Gaza shows how widespread their ideology really is.

The problem with the Israeli logic is that they think they can destroy Hamas... Hamas is an insurgency movement from the bottom up, not from the top to the bottom. That means that they have actually empowered Hamas, and not only Hamas, but Hezbollah as well. Why? Because these organizations rely on one factor alone for recruitment: hate against Israel. And by invading and killing tens of thousands of innocents and wrecking havock without regard for any human rights, the IDF has shown how inhumane they are and they have given fuel for these two movements for at least two more generations of willing fighters. The craziest irony is that before the Oct. 7th attack, it seemed like the people of Gaza were already getting tired of being under Hamas rule... they wanted change, opportunities for work, they wanted something other than just blind ideology. Now actually the movement is re-invigorated. So unless the Israelis commit mass ethnic cleansing and remove every single Palestinian out of Israel, they are going to have an insurgency problem for the rest of their country's existence. And that we know, at least under the current world order, is fairly impossible. The world will not allow Israel to commit mass ethnic cleansing.

So in other words, the only alternative is to vie for peace... And not only to vie for peace, but to actually be very, very forth-giving towards Palestinian demands. This is one of these cases where a country has to actually loose the fight in order to win. If Israel gives up its military autocratic genocidal "self-defense" impulses, and replaces them with negotiation, diplomacy, and a re-direction of efforts for the creation a viable two-state solution that is backed by the wealthy Arab states and monitored by an international peace-keeping force stationed in the West Bank and Gaza, and if they increase the size of Gaza by three times in order to accommodate the population's needs, they will actually win the fight. What do I mean? If the Israelis back off, and actually go along with the plan mentioned above, they will guarantee their nation's security for the next hundred years. The Arab world will slowly come to accept Israel's existence and Israel will no longer be threatened by Islamic jihadism. So the only way for Israel to win, to guarantee itself a future, is through peace.

But who knows... This would be great if the Israelis actually had a brain, which most of them don't. They are solely thinking from their emotions at this point, and this I say without even a hint of prejudice... I have been talking to Israelis every day since this conflict began. Every time I put forward these arguments, they just shut down their brains and react angrily and reply, "But Hamas are terrorists who raped babies!" or some other emotional kick-response. The situation is quite volatile.... a number of new factors can play into this now... the rapid empowerment of right wing parties across the US and Europe might enable Israel to just go ahead and do a full genocide... but if we are lucky, we can get rid of the murderous and vile Netanyahu regime and replace these fackers with more sensible human beings that are acting from a more humane approach. In the end, there is but a sliver of hope...

[Ludicus]

Published today, it says pretty much what I said yesterday: "There's no need to hear the speech Netanyahu will soon give in the American Congress to guess what he will do: he will humiliate and ridicule Biden, as he did with Obama a few years ago."
Benjamin Netanyahu set to address joint session of US

(…) The invitation to Congress is a reminder than while Biden is seeking to influence Israeli politics to forge a peace agreement for Gaza and a broader long-term settlement in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Netanyahu also has the means to sway US politics – and possibly hurt Biden’s re-election chances if he were to accuse the president of being insufficiently supportive. Netanyahu used an address to Congress in 2015 to speak out against the efforts of then President Barack Obama to (…)

---

Biden’s ‘non-starter’ Gaza ceasefire deal only demonstrates his lack of influence

Benjamin Netanyahu’s rebuke was swift and decisive.

And that's it.
--
Edit-

the rapid empowerment of right-wing parties across the US and Europe might enable Israel to just go ahead and do a full genocide...

Who knows...but there is an exception, Once an ally, Italy's Meloni sours on Israel's Netanyahu ...

Meloni was one of the first leaders to arrive in Israel after the Oct. 7 assault by Hamas to express solidarity with the Israeli people and the Israeli government. But as the Gaza war dragged on, and public outrage in the form of pro-Palestinian protests spread to Italy, Rome adjusted its posture. Last January, Italian Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani said his country had halted all arms shipments to Israel, explaining, “Since Oct. 7, we have decided not to send any more arms to Israel, so there is no need to discuss this point.”
Maya Sion-Tzidkiyahu is the director of the Israel-Europe Relations Program at Israel's leading Mitvim think tank. She agrees that Meloni was never really part of Netanyahu’s camp the way Orban or Czech Republic populist politicians were.
"The fact that Meloni belongs to the right or to the far right does not mean she joined this group Netanyahu tries to cultivate. What counts, at the end of the day, is what the Italian public opinion, and Meloni’s statement last January supporting the two-state solution reflects that.

---
The fact that a third of American Jews are aware that genocide is taking place in Gaza is already a significant number One-third of American Jews agree Israel committed genocide....

Over 51% of American Jews support Biden's decision to withhold arms shipments to Israel, survey finds
Nearly one-third of American Jews agree with accusations that Israel committed “genocide” in the Gaza Strip, and 60% support the establishment of an independent Palestinian state, a new poll has found.

And it's not worth coming up with the argument that Hamas is to blame because it uses the civilian population as a shield: of course it does, as any military force harassed within a city — or did they expect Hamas to emerge from the tunnels and houses and face Israeli tanks and aviation in the open? Written three centuries ago,
"When we tried to pursue a guerrilla, the first obstacle was to know where he was. The guerrillas were never where we were looking. The peasants protected and supported them, and gave them vital information about us, and our movements"

[Love Mountain]

So in other words, the only alternative is to vie for peace... And not only to vie for peace, but to actually be very, very forth-giving towards Palestinian demands. This is one of these cases where a country has to actually loose the fight in order to win. If Israel gives up its military autocratic genocidal "self-defense" impulses, and replaces them with negotiation, diplomacy, and a re-direction of efforts for the creation a viable two-state solution that is backed by the wealthy Arab states and monitored by an international peace-keeping force stationed in the West Bank and Gaza, and if they increase the size of Gaza by three times in order to accommodate the population's needs, they will actually win the fight. What do I mean? If the Israelis back off, and actually go along with the plan mentioned above, they will guarantee their nation's security for the next hundred years. The Arab world will slowly come to accept Israel's existence and Israel will no longer be threatened by Islamic jihadism. So the only way for Israel to win, to guarantee itself a future, is through peace.

If only there was a powerful Western international alliance who would promote democratic values, manage international crises', and defend human rights.

[Ludicus]

If only there was a powerful Western international alliance who would promote democratic values, manage international crises', and defend human rights.

I was prepared to agree with and even praise Biden's latest proposal U.S. Urges U.N. Security Council to Support Biden's Gaza Ceasefire Plan.

... but after this extremely shameful decision to every honest member of the UN, all the adjectives I can think of to condemn this action are not enough. 42 House Dems Help GOP Pass Bill Targeting ICC Officials Over Israel...

“The ICC has to be punished for this action."

The US Congress not only defies global calls for compliance with international laws and institutions, but also acts against and undermines international law.
---
Regarding the European Union, Charles Michel, the President of the European Council, reminds us, in an interview with the newspaper PUBLICO, that the Treaty of Lisbon mentions the "impartiality" of the community executive.

In response to the question "Has the Commission not been impartial during this mandate?” he admits that this has happened in the recent past concerning Gaza.

I quote Charles Michel:

"I will give a recent example from the area of foreign policy, which is not even within the Commission's competence: Gaza. We all remember the difficulties the EU faced because the Commission took a stance on Israel that was not impartial and did not reflect our usual position in terms of respect for international and humanitarian law.

And even today, we are paying for this because it has been used to say that there are double standards in the EU. This is the risk of politicization, and it should be a concern, especially at the international level, so that the EU is not accused of having double standards or being inconsistent. For us to have a more efficient Union and a more political EU, the impartiality of the Commission must be absolute."

[Muizer]

... but after this extremely shameful decision to every honest member of the UN, all the adjectives I can think of to condemn this action are not enough. 42 House Dems Help GOP Pass Bill Targeting ICC Officials Over Israel...

The US' attitude towards the ICC has veered between overtly hostile to opportunistic. Which I suppose they can do as they are not part of the treaty that established it. On the whole it supports the ICC when it suits them (Prosecution of Putin) and opposes it when it doesn't (American Servicemembers Protection Act aka The Hague Invasion Act). So, nothing new here, really. The US probably (and rightly) realises that this arrest warrant only has symbolic value. One they (the US) can do without in this case and which of course does not in any way bring peace in Gaza any closer. Quite the opposite. I've been thinking the opposite. Some form of amnesty for Netanyahu may necessary to get him to ditch is creepy friends.

[Kyriakos]

You are right, it's his creepy friends, nothing to do with Net himself or - heaven forbid - the state of Israel.

[Muizer]

You are right, it's his creepy friends, nothing to do with Net himself or - heaven forbid - the state of Israel.

It would be incredibly naive not to recognize that Netanyahu's political survival resting on the support of the likes of Ben Gvir and Smotrich has a big impact on Israel's course of action at this junction.And no, that does not exculpate Netanyahu. In fact saying someone prolongs a war to ensure their own political survival is about as serious an indictment as one can make, after of course starting one.

[Papay]

(174) Israel’s forced starvation in Gaza has killed dozens of children | Al Jazeera Newsfeed - YouTube

So the first signs of famine taking place in Gaza. What USA will do about that? Of course nothing