Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Muizer]

This is a transcript in English of a report on the protests at Amsterdam University

Several thousand students and lecturers – including from VU and HvA – gathered this Monday morning in a so-called walk-out on Nieuwe Achtergracht to protest against the ‘disproportionate police violence’ of the past week, to which the UvA administration allegedly exposed them. They also criticize the UvA administration's refusal to sever ties with Israeli institutions and the university’s silence on the situation in Gaza.

From the bridge, where speakers addressed the students and lecturers on both sides of the canal, there were repeated urgent calls for the UvA administration to resign: ‘We demand your resignation!’ Junior sociology lecturer Sam Hamer, one of the organizers, supports this demand but doubts whether it would actually have an effect.

‘The people who are eligible to be in a new administration are probably just as unwilling as the current board members,’ he says. Therefore, he advocates for more say for students and lecturers at the university.

It appears that the demonstrators are seriously considering the possibility of escalation.

Vandalism

Around a quarter past one, the demonstration became more grim. Hundreds of demonstrators entered the REC-ABCD with much commotion. Some demonstrators, dressed entirely in black, moved through the upper floors of building ABCD. Others stayed in the hall, where they set up tents, knocked over plant pots, and shouted out the number of a lawyer. The latter is a precautionary measure, the demonstrators explain, ‘in case they get arrested’. It seems the demonstrators are seriously anticipating escalation.

One and a half million in damage

Previous vandalism by student demonstrators has resulted in about 1.5 million euros in damage, according to the UvA. It is still unknown who will pay these costs. Vandalism also occurred on Monday afternoon.

Meanwhile, a journalist and camera crew from the broadcaster PowNed were urged to leave by the demonstrators. Al Jazeera and Nieuwsuur were also hindered from doing their work. All press was declared unwelcome, as announced via megaphone. Shortly thereafter, amid a display of flags, a call for an intifada was made.

Several house rules of the UvA have been violated. Many demonstrators wore face-covering clothing, vandalism occurred, and slogans were chanted, including the often controversial ‘From the river to the sea, Palestine will be free’. Security was nowhere to be seen. How the UvA will respond to this is still unknown. Lecturers and students in the occupied building have now been asked to leave. The UvA has announced this in REC-ABCD.

I think that illustrates student protests quite well. There are probably decent people there who just want the institution they are part of to "do something" even if it is a hollow gesture, but they're apparently oblivious of or surprised by the radical element they are associating themselves with.

[Legio_Italica]

Nobody likes to be lectured, but history matters. Who is misinformed?

The majority of protesters you consider historians profess support for far right theocratic terrorists warring in opposition to my country and its ally. They are either historically misinformed, or my self-described enemies, or both. It necessarily requires a fair amount of misinformation to believe these same people are in fact the good guys and they don’t mean what they say and do. Meanwhile every random Israeli ever quoted as saying “death to Palestine” is supposed to be complicit in the moral travesty that is their collective existence because “history” or because another Jew said something bad about them. If history education is at issue here, perhaps these protestors rioting every election season over the latest fashionable outrage can learn about oppressed ethnic groups in China, Russia or Iran so these can be added to the “anti imperialist national liberation struggles” for a change. Or maybe they already know why only countries aligned with the US are worth vandalizing university campuses over.

Who is Sarah Streyder

I don’t know, and I doubt you do either, but suffice to say her marriage to a US service member does not preclude hostility to US interests and our allies.

I think that illustrates student protests quite well. There are probably decent people there who just want the institution they are part of to "do something" even if it is a hollow gesture, but they're apparently oblivious of or surprised by the radical element they are associating themselves with.

I can only speak from an American perspective, but when 63% of student protesters and 40% of students here admit to supporting Hamas, it’s safe to say naïveté is not an accurate description of what’s going on. Anyone remotely aware of the issue knows Hamas is a radical element.

[Siblesz]

The majority of protesters you consider historians profess support for far right theocratic terrorists warring in opposition to my country and its ally. They are either historically misinformed, or my self-described enemies, or both. It necessarily requires a fair amount of misinformation to believe these same people are in fact the good guys and they don’t mean what they say and do. Meanwhile every random Israeli ever quoted as saying “death to Palestine” is supposed to be complicit in the moral travesty that is their collective existence because “history” or because another Jew said something bad about them. If history education is at issue here, perhaps these protestors rioting every election season over the latest fashionable outrage can learn about oppressed ethnic groups in China, Russia or Iran so these can be added to the “anti imperialist national liberation struggles” for a change. Or maybe they already know why only countries aligned with the US are worth vandalizing university campuses over.

I don’t know, and I doubt you do either, but suffice to say her marriage to a US service member does not preclude hostility to US interests and our allies.

I can only speak from an American perspective, but when 63% of student protesters and 40% of students here admit to supporting Hamas, it’s safe to say naïveté is not an accurate description of what’s going on. Anyone remotely aware of the issue knows Hamas is a radical element.

It's hard to argue about Hamas being a radical group when the IDF are committing a genocide on live tv for everyone to see...

[Legio_Italica]

It's hard to argue about Hamas being a radical group when the IDF are committing a genocide on live tv for everyone to see...

It’s harder to argue the term genocide could retain significance if any war involving ethnic conflict, high civilian casualties, food shortages and mass displacement qualifies as such. In any case, Hamas’ extremism is not a function of what sort of label can be put on the IDF. The most sustainable way the latter can comply with international pressure to prevent a situation prone to atrocities is to accomplish its objectives and eliminate the political and military capabilities of jihadists in Gaza and the West Bank. For a country its size, it is more daunting a task ahead of Israel than anything the US attempted in Iraq or Afghanistan. Yet, as Hamas proved on 10/7, it is as critical a national security priority as any Islamist terror threat we faced at the turn of the century.

[mishkin]

…A response I anticipated in my last post. As I also said, this is not debatable so I won’t, except to acknowledge 2/3 student protesters support Hamas. Hamas is a terror group. People who support terror groups are pro-terrorist.

You have found a study that presents data (who the hell is intelligentdotcom? eeriously, these people need help when presenting the results, probably also regarding to the methodology) obtained through an online survey in which 63 percent of alleged participants in the protests say they feel some degree of sympathy for Hamas (a lot 33%, a little 30%). Based on this online poll, some shouts from some participants in one university and a pamphlet found in another, you are saying that the American protesters in American universities are pro-Hamas, pro-terrorists and "enemies of their country".

I don't know if I should be surprised that those who consider all Palestinians to a greater or lesser extent part of Hamas also consider those who support the Palestinian people in the West to be pro-terrorists or directly terrorists. I don't know if I should be surprised that those who defended mass deportations of palestiian families beyond the border are now saying this:

"I am proposing to treat the pro-terrorist majority as they have identified themselves: as violent political “revolutionaries” who are hostile to the US and our allies, fighting “in solidarity” with terrorist groups and foreign adversaries who share their contempt for and struggle against us and our national interests from within".

Have you reflected or do you still want to clean America from this fifth column?

PS: Good luck on your mission to return to the legendary wasp United States, with a traditional family where everyone fears both Yahweh and the reds.

[PointOfViewGun]

The majority of protesters you consider historians profess support for far right theocratic terrorists warring in opposition to my country and its ally. They are either historically misinformed, or my self-described enemies, or both.

Or you're conflating sympathy towards fighting against Israeli brutality in Gaza with support for acts of terrorism.

[mishkin]

Or you're conflating sympathy towards fighting against Israeli brutality in Gaza with support for acts of terrorism.

In that same wonderful survey it is said something like that only nine percent of students oppose the existence of the state of Israel (primary objective of Hamas?), 10% show some degree of anti-Semitism. Among the participants in this discussion we could prepare a more serious survey. I'm not saying that these people have prejudices or any agenda, but they have done and presented work.

[Muizer]

Or you're conflating sympathy towards fighting against Israeli brutality in Gaza with support for acts of terrorism.

Hamas aren't your regular terrorist group operating from the interstices of an otherwise normal, peaceful society. They are a terrorist regime with a military engaging in warfare. Of course if you only protest against one side in a war, that has the effect of supporting the other. There is no escaping that on the ground, holding the guns and the bombs and being in charge of negotiations, Hamas is the flagbearer of the Palestinian cause. That sucks if you're pro-palestine and against Hamas but please don't take the cowards way out of not wanting to face that reality.

[Ludicus]

I also know how to praise Biden when it's necessary and when it's fair.
House passes bill forcing Biden to send weapons to Israel

The bill is unlikely to get a vote in the Senate, and the White House has said Biden would veto it.

South Africa defended yesterday the appeal made to the International Court of Justice to demand the withdrawal of Israeli forces from Rafah, renewed its support for a ceasefire, and called for Israel to be declared an "apartheid state." One of South Africa’s legal representatives, lawyer Vaughan Lowe, criticized Israel's alleged right to legitimate self-defense: "The right to self-defense does not mean 'violence without limits," and added, "It is increasingly clear that Israel’s actions in Rafah are part of the ultimate goal: the total destruction of Gaza and the Palestinian people.”
Israel is at this very moment presenting its arguments to the court, rejecting the accusations of genocide and defending its alleged commitment to international law.

That being said, every day, we hear, in front of our televisions, the Palestinians asking, as the Israeli army advances: “Where can I take my wife, my children, my parents?”. These Palestinians speak only, without mentioning it, of the right to freedom of movement, as basic as the right to eat, to breathe: a right they do not have and that has long been denied to them.
As we see, Palestinians have only the duty of forced displacement. But they do not even know where to go, for in the name of security (?!), they can always return to the starting point, even if it may no longer exist. Thus, I believe it is not an exaggeration to say, in light of what we see daily, that the Palestinian people are left with only one right: the right to die. Or is it an obligation?

[mishkin]

Hamas aren't your regular terrorist group operating from the interstices of an otherwise normal, peaceful society. They are a terrorist regime with a military engaging in warfare. Of course if you only protest against one side in a war, that has the effect of supporting the other. There is no escaping that on the ground, holding the guns and the bombs and being in charge of negotiations, Hamas is the flagbearer of the Palestinian cause. That sucks if you're pro-palestine and against Hamas but please don't take the cowards way out of not wanting to face that reality.

In your world in black and white, on October 7, Hamas, representing the Palestinians, started a war against Israel. For the eleventh time, this is not Team Israel or Team Hamas and this is not a conflict started because some crazy people totally alienated from reality, out of nowhere, decided to attack Israel. They are fundamentalist terrorists, horrible people, responding as violent fundamentalists respond to perceived or in many cases real attacks and offenses.

[Muizer]

In your world in black and white, on October 7, Hamas, representing the Palestinians, started a war against Israel. For the eleventh time, this is not Team Israel or Team Hamas and this is not a conflict started because some crazy people totally alienated from reality, out of nowhere, decided to attack Israel. They are fundamentalist terrorists, horrible people, responding as violent fundamentalists respond to perceived or in many cases real attacks and offenses.

You quote my post, but you don't actually address its content. Which part of it don't you agree with?

[Legio_Italica]

Based on this online poll, some shouts from some participants in one university and a pamphlet found in another, you are saying that the American protesters in American universities are pro-Hamas, pro-terrorists and "enemies of their country".

Based on survey data and multiple clear examples provided (there are plenty more, and more every day), most student protestors support Hamas and are hostile to the US and Israel. I’m glad we have finally progressed from “it’s not happening” to “it is happening but that’s good.” As I said originally, I have no interest in chasing goalposts in a discussion where people are determined to minimize and explain away any amount of evidence.

Yes, people who support terrorists are pro-terrorist. Yes, that is not a good thing. Yes, the only possible conclusions are these protestors are wildly ignorant, or they mean what they say when they voice support for terrorism and hatred of my country and its allies loudly and often. No, furious coping about McCarthyism is not a counterargument.

In that same wonderful survey it is said something like that only nine percent of students oppose the existence of the state of Israel (primary objective of Hamas?), 10% show some degree of anti-Semitism.

That’s the same proportion of students who have participated in protests, so that tracks. ~60% of those said they would not even be able to tolerate interpersonal relationships with someone who supports Israel.

Over 80% of students believe the protesters should be held accountable for vandalism and violence. 90% say taking over campuses and blocking students’ access is unacceptable ~70% say occupying buildings on campus is unacceptable. ~60% of students say the protestors have no right to defy orders to disperse.

https://www.axios.com/2024/05/07/pol...hamas-protests

If most students don’t support these tactics and less than 10% have actually participated, it’s clear the Biden mega donors funding and organizing this extremist minority to cause havoc before the elections are a key factor in their outsized influence and nationwide reach. Yes, this should be investigated and prosecuted as domestic terrorism from top to bottom. But instead, I bet all this will magically go away by the time Biden is inaugurated for a second term, just like the last election. That’s the definition of a “fifth column,” except the US finds itself in a unique position where this malicious group is actually the liberal establishment, whose institutional dominance is nigh unassailable and whose political representatives control 2 of the 3 branches of government. We’re ed.

[mishkin]

Muizer, do I have to spell your own message for you? Can you explain for example this?

"Of course if you only protest against one side in a war, that has the effect of supporting the other". You seriously don't understand that you can support the Palestinians in Gaza, be against Israeli politics, and not support Hamas? Who supports Hamas here for protesting the murders of Palestinian civilians?

"They are a terrorist regime" Like what, like Iran? Since when?

~60% of those said they would not even be able to tolerate interpersonal relationships with someone who supports Israel.

Count me among them. She would have to be extremely beautiful and mute.

[Muizer]

You seriously don't understand that you can support the Palestinians in Gaza, be against Israeli politics, and not support Hamas?

That is an odd question. I think you supporting the Palestinians in Gaza should involve denouncing Hamas.

"They are a terrorist regime" Like what, like Iran? Since when?

They are a terrorist group that has been ruling Gaza. A rule that is based on the use of force, not democratic representation. I don't see how me calling them a terrorist regime is in any way contentious.

[Kyriakos]

Hamas is terrorist, obviously. But that isn't apriori, it's not regardless of what they do. Likewise, the state of Israel is now genocidal. Like it or not, they are far more murderous than terrorist Hamas.

[PointOfViewGun]

Hamas aren't your regular terrorist group operating from the interstices of an otherwise normal, peaceful society. They are a terrorist regime with a military engaging in warfare. Of course if you only protest against one side in a war, that has the effect of supporting the other. There is no escaping that on the ground, holding the guns and the bombs and being in charge of negotiations, Hamas is the flagbearer of the Palestinian cause. That sucks if you're pro-palestine and against Hamas but please don't take the cowards way out of not wanting to face that reality.

I'm not the one lying about material facts to make one side look worse than it does. You have done just that which is why you have to excuse me for thinking that your plea for impartiality as a response to criticism of conflation of different stances is nothing but a straw man attempt. Everyone in this thread expressed sadness and shock, for the lack of a better word, for what happened on October 7. None of us tried to excuse or trivialize the Israeli civilian deaths of October 7 in any shape or form like many people have been doing it for Palestinian civilians. This is not a case of us protesting against only one side in any way. Nor it would mean that just because we're being selective about who we are protesting against we're supporting the other side. That's your own fallacious accusation that carries no sense or basis. This is us protesting against the side that holds the reins and guides the course of the war. That's not Hamas. It's not Hamas that has been sieging Gaza for decades. It's not Hamas that has been bombing entire Gazan neighbourhoods. It's not Hamas that has been demolishing Gazan civilian infrastructure unrelated to any kind of fighting. It's not Hamas that has been carving out West Bank. Hamas is not the flagbearer of the Palestinian cause either as it has little relation to what's going on outside of Gaza. It could only be labeled as the forced flagbearer of the Gazan defenses which is true by Israeli design as they chose to deal with a far right organization instead of a leftist organization because of favorable optics. The fact that you only make impartiality an issue whenever Israel is the one being criticized while ignoring any facts that doesn't suit with your narrative is a clear litmus test in itself.

[Muizer]

I'm not the one lying about material facts to make one side look worse than it does. You have done just that which is why you have to excuse me for thinking that your plea for impartiality as a response to criticism of conflation of different stances is nothing but a straw man attempt. Everyone in this thread expressed sadness and shock, for the lack of a better word, for what happened on October 7. None of us tried to excuse or trivialize the Israeli civilian deaths of October 7 in any shape or form like many people have been doing it for Palestinian civilians. This is not a case of us protesting against only one side in any way. Nor it would mean that just because we're being selective about who we are protesting against we're supporting the other side. That's your own fallacious accusation that carries no sense or basis.

Well, you yourself have tried in many ways to make 7/10 appear less gruesome. But you know what? That doesn't even matter. It does not matter because the damage done on the day is not the worst thing about 7/10. The worst thing is that it was deliberately designed to trigger open warfare. It literally was: "if we can get Israel to attack us, then perhaps we can Isolate Israel militarily and diplomatically". And it worked.

This is us protesting against the side that holds the reins and guides the course of the war. That's not Hamas.

Then why do they keep making demands as if they do? What leverage do they have? I know the answer, but I'd like to hear you say it.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well, you yourself have tried in many ways to make 7/10 appear less gruesome. But you know what? That doesn't even matter. It does not matter because the damage done on the day is not the worst thing about 7/10. The worst thing is that it was deliberately designed to trigger open warfare. It literally was: "if we can get Israel to attack us, then perhaps we can Isolate Israel militarily and diplomatically". And it worked.

Me pointing out discrepancies, or in many cases outright lies, coming from the Israeli narrative does not mean I tried to make it less gruesome. You needlessly lying about what happened on the other hand does tell us that you tried to make it more gruesome than it was. Given that you are refusing to accept what happened on October 7 and how Israel reacted for what it was and is you're trying to come up with a narrative that shifts responsibility away from Israel. The worst thing is that people are willing to lie about basic facts.

Then why do they keep making demands as if they do? What leverage do they have? I know the answer, but I'd like to hear you say it.

What demand are they making as if they do and how do they make it as if they do?

[mishkin]

That is an odd question. I think you supporting the Palestinians in Gaza should involve denouncing Hamas.

Reread the beginning of this discussion. We all condemned the terrorist acts of October 7. Do we have to head each post denouncing the current barbarity that is the invasion of Gaza with a condemnation of the murders of civilians on October 7?

They are a terrorist group that has been ruling Gaza. A rule that is based on the use of force, not democratic representation. I don't see how me calling them a terrorist regime is in any way contentious.

They have been a political party and government fully accepted (to say the least) by Israel until very recently. They are not a regime, they are not the elected government of the Palestinian people unless you go back eighteen years ago. They are not a regime, they do not represent a state, the Hamas militias are not the army of Palestine. Amazing that it is I, who have been accused of being a quasi-proterrorist, who has to say it; Isn't it obvious that they are terrorist fanatics? I repeat, this is not about Israel against Palestine and its Hamas "government/army". Right now this is about what Israel is doing with the Palestinian people, its cruelty and its ineffectiveness or lack of interest in freeing hostages (we speak little about it). But please feel free to denounce Hamas's ultra-religious fanaticism, its anti-Semitism, its homophobia, its thuggish behavior. It may be an interesting conversation, but no one is going to deny the fundamental points (today, like ten years ago, they were a pretty miserable organization).

[Legio_Italica]

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://www.pcpsr.org/sites/default/...rch%202024.pdf

Most Palestinians support Hamas over the PA, the nominal state government of “Palestine,” by orders of magnitude. 59% in prefer that Hamas remain in control of Gaza indefinitely, only 13% want the PA to return. 64% believe Hamas will defeat Israel militarily, and 73% oppose organizing a coalition of Arab peacekeeping forces under the PA to control Gaza after the war.

71% support Hamas’ decision to launch the 10/7 attacks, 81% of those who have seen footage of the atrocities Hamas proudly recorded that day do not consider them problematic, and 72% are satisfied with Hamas’ performance since then.

If an election were held, 63% of Palestinians say they would back militant jihadist candidates, including the political leader of Hamas. Only 8% would vote for Abbas. 71% want Abbas to resign from office altogether.

Palestinians support intifada over negotiated peace and political resistance by a 2 to 1 margin. 63% oppose peace negotiations with the goal of a two state solution. 52% oppose a two state solution altogether, and 61% believe it is not even a realistic proposal.

The plain fact of the matter is most Palestinians support Hamas, support intifada and hate the PA. Only in the minds of delusional westerners is a magic two state solution with equal rights for everyone headed by the PA a relevant concept.

I have mentioned before how silly it is for western liberals and leftists to parade around with the flag of the despised PA demanding solutions that have already been rejected by the people they claim to advocate for. But it is even more ridiculous to see the mental gymnastics on display throughout, attempting to portray Hamas as some rogue fringe anomaly that no one actually supports and has no agency in the conflict. Palestinians support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. Most western leftist protesters wreaking havoc in the streets support Hamas and the 10/7 attacks. And because of that support, Palestinians hold out hope for final military victory over the hated Jew, sure to be vanquished by the heroic holy warriors of Hamas.

If people clutching pearls over anything the IDF is responsible for really want to end the war and stop the suffering, they would get tf out of the way and stop trying to prevent the IDF from finishing the job. Until then, Palestinians will continue to support intifada and oppose political negotiations, because they feel supported at home and abroad, and therefore they will continue to serve as meat shields for their jihadist heroes in a conflict that has no end in sight.