Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Kyriakos]

So if Hamas (like Hamas in the parallel universe, which is used so often as a pretext) was magically able to invade Israel with tanks/planes/missiles and kill tens of thousands, it would be also justified by you because Netanyahu openly declared he is against a two-state solution?
Let's say it had around 1000 of its "people" killed by Israel, and currently had killed roughly 35.000 Israelis and leveled the homes of 1 million etc.

[mishkin]

I find it hilarious that Israel has been surrounded by enemies for its entire existence.

I would completely agree with you that the creation of the state of Israel was hilariously foolish, if it weren't that to "make room" for themselves they had to violently expel a large part of the native population (Muslim Arabs). Which explains why they are surrounded by enemies. But yes, of course, if it weren't for all the destruction they have caused to their neighbors and themselves it would be hilarious.

Edit: I am remembering now a book by Albert Cohen (one of the solal trilogy, probably mangeclous) where he makes fun of the Israeli settlers (pre-creation of the state of Israel) who buy land and go to Palestine to plant a garden and have stones thrown at them and shot with muskets by Arabs riding camels. Hilarious passage.

[Legio_Italica]

I would encourage you to Google how regions of the Levant became majority Muslim Arab, and the populations they replaced. It’s definitely ironic, just not how you might have hoped. As for the notion that Arab Muslim hatred of Jews began in 1948, that’s unironically hilarious.

[mishkin]

I would encourage you to Google how regions of the Levant became majority Muslim Arab, and the populations they replaced. It’s definitely ironic, just not how you might have hoped.

Could you be more specific in that justification of the Nakba?

As for the notion that Arab Muslim hatred of Jews began in 1948, that’s unironically hilarious.

The book I mentioned is before 1948. Jewish settlers have probably been hated or despised in Palestine since they started arriving, more than 100 years ago.

[flo463]

how many hamas fighters?

Hamas-Run Gaza Health Ministry Admits to Flaws in Casualty Data (fdd.org)


it is very likely that we will never know the real number of civilian casualties

[flo463]

strange that you forget an essential fact, the Arabs rejecting the two-state solution voted at the UN and attacking Israel on the very day of its independence because they refused a Jewish state. who knows what would have happened if the Muslims had accepted, one thing is certain the region would be calmer.


Muslims including no-involved states as Marocco, Algeria, Tunisia who after their defeat in 1948 committed ethnic cleansing against their own Jewish populations.

[Legio_Italica]

Could you be more specific in that justification of the Nakba?

I wasn’t aware historical facts are subject to moral justification, so I don’t know what you mean. Can you be more specific about how a question regarding a backfired attempt to expel Jews from the region relates to your earlier claims?

The book I mentioned is before 1948. Jewish settlers have probably been hated or despised in Palestine since they started arriving, more than 100 years ago.

I agree, the emergence of Jewish kingdoms in ~900 BC happened more than 100 years ago. The Jewish “settler” revolt against the Babylonians was also more than 100 years ago. So was the Jewish “colonizer” revolt against the Greeks. So were the Jewish “occupier” rebellions against the Romans. So was the Umayyad conquest of the region in the 600s AD. So was the rule of the Abbasids, the Fatimids, the Seljuks, the Crusaders, and the Ottomans. So was the emergence of “native” Arab nationalism in the 19th century. We can therefore deduce that hatred of the Jews, of their nationalist resistance against foreign conquerers for thousands of years and of the diaspora that process created is indeed quite old.

It doesn’t substantiate claims that the 6th-7th and not even the most recent group to conquer the area by force are “native,” while the people who have lived there the longest as part of some of the oldest original kingdoms turned client states for millennia are the “settlers.” As outsiders, picking sides is inherently self-serving, so we should acknowledge that the only real basis for backing Israel or Palestine has little to do with the moral claims of either party, or casualty ratios, or arbitrary dates, but is instead a function of our own domestic politics.

[Ludicus]

I'm glad you agree it is at least part of it.(…)Yes but not by adopting a perverse moral arithmetic where justice is achieved by balancing the books in terms of casualties and atrocities.

1) I’m afraid you didn’t understand what I said: "It is not enough for the Western world to say that it was Hamas who initiated this war on October 7" .What I think and say is different, and I've said this many times: October 7 is just the latest episode in a long war that began 75 years ago.

2) Who says justice is achieved by "balancing the books in terms of casualties and atrocities?". Asking "is not enough for you?" is a rethorical question. What Israel is doing is unlike anything that has happened before, under any circumstances. Truly perverse is Israel using mass starvation as a weapon of war, indiscriminate bombings, systematic destruction of health services in Gaza, systematic destruction of Palestinian agriculture, systematic destruction of homes, (a crime called domicide), turning Gaza uninhabitable, and as we know, forced displacement violates international humanitarian law, notably Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. (Five war crimes, if I’m not wrong)
Israel has long wanted Palestinians out of Gaza, and you know that.
-----
US Republicans are ecstatic. They think they've hit the jackpot,

Ben-Gvir Tweets Hamas 'Loves' Biden

Florida Republican says House has ‘no choice’ but to impeach Biden over Israel comments

Rep. Cory Mills, R-Fla., is preparing impeachment articles against President Biden over his threat to halt U.S. offensive aid to Israel, the first-term lawmaker told Fox News Digital on Thursday.

In 2015, Nethanyhau's speech to Congress (which Obama refused to attend) was an insult to the Democrats.
History will repeat itself, because he has already been invited back by the Republicans. Bibi, when necessary, travels to the US to bring order to the unruly hordes.

The question is, will Nancy Pelosi cry again? At the time, Pelosi said in a statement that "as one who values the U.S.-Israel relationship and loves Israel, "she was "near tears" throughout the speech because of Netanyahu's rhetoric”. Dems: Bibi speech was an 'insult' to America, Obama

[Muizer]

1) I’m afraid you didn’t understand what I said: "It is not enough for the Western world to say that it was Hamas who initiated this war on October 7" .What I think and say is different, and I've said this many times: October 7 is just the latest episode in a long war that began 75 years ago.

You mean you did not say what you meant to say. Don't put that on me. Be more careful with your words.

Who says justice is achieved by "balancing the books in terms of casualties and atrocities?".

This to me seems to be part of Kyriakos' considerations.

Asking "is not enough for you?" is a rethorical question. What Israel is doing is unlike anything that has happened before, under any circumstances. Truly perverse is Israel using mass starvation as a weapon of war, indiscriminate bombings, systematic destruction of health services in Gaza, systematic destruction of Palestinian agriculture, systematic destruction of homes, (a crime called domicide), turning Gaza uninhabitable, and as we know, forced displacement violates international humanitarian law, notably Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. (Five war crimes, if I’m not wrong)
Israel has long wanted Palestinians out of Gaza, and you know that.

It could indeed not be clearer that what you 'see' is highly coloured by the intentions you ascribe to Israel. That or you're very naive about the brutality of war in front line urban areas. I'm not saying everything can be ascribed to it, but most of it ..... I'm afraid so.

Personally I defer judgement until we actually get to know what both sides are prepared to concede at the negotiation table. Israel should withdraw from Gaza AND Hamas should relinquish power there. As far as I'm concerned, whichever side continues fighting when the other has agreed to it is ultimately in the wrong.

[mishkin]

strange that you forget an essential fact, the Arabs rejecting the two-state solution voted at the UN and attacking Israel on the very day of its independence because they refused a Jewish state. who knows what would have happened if the Muslims had accepted, one thing is certain the region would be calmer..

Maybe in the history subforum we can calmly talk about the civil war before '48 and the execution of the Plan Dialet.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Plan Dalet (Hebrew: תוכנית ד', Tokhnit dalet "Plan D") was a Zionist military plan executed in the civil war phase of the 1948 Palestine war for the conquest of territory in Mandatory Palestine in preparation for the establishment of a Jewish state.[1] The plan was requested by the Jewish Agency leader and later first prime minister of Israel David Ben-Gurion, and developed by the Haganah and finalized on March 10, 1948. Historians describe Plan Dalet, in which Zionist forces shifted to an offensive strategy, as the beginning of a new phase in the 1948 Palestine war.[2][3]

The plan was a set of guidelines to take control of Mandatory Palestine, declare a Jewish state, and defend its borders and people, including the Jewish population outside of the borders, "before, and in anticipation of" the invasion by regular Arab armies.[4][5][qt 1][6][7][8] Plan Dalet specifically included gaining control of areas wherever Yishuv populations existed, including those outside the borders of the Jewish state.[9]

This strategy is subject to controversy, with some historians characterizing it as defensive, while others assert that it was an integral part of a planned strategy for the expulsion, sometimes called an ethnic cleansing, of the area's native inhabitants.[10]

You mean you did not say what you meant to say. Don't put that on me. Be more careful with your words.

He was asking very clearly how many more Palestinian civilians have to die before it is recognized that this is an atrocity. I would repeat that question to those who are still not sure that 15,000 dead children is not normal at all in an anti-terrorist and release of hostages operation.

[Jozam]

strange that you forget an essential fact, the Arabs rejecting the two-state solution voted at the UN and attacking Israel on the very day of its independence because they refused a Jewish state. who knows what would have happened if the Muslims had accepted, one thing is certain the region would be calmer.

I don't know if going to war was the best response to Zionism, but put yourself in the local population's shoes: If millions of Pakistani Baluch Muslims illegally migrated to your country to create their own independent emirate within its territory, and the U.N. then proposed handing most of your country over to those Pakistani Baluch Muslims, would you accept that "two-state solution" or would you call on your country's armed forces to put a stop to it?

The [U.N. partition] plan’s detractors considered the proposed plan to be pro-Zionist, with 56%[9] of the land allocated to the Jewish state although the Palestinian Arab population numbered twice the Jewish population.[10] The plan was celebrated by most Jews in Palestine[11] and reluctantly[12] accepted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine with misgivings.[13][8] Zionist leaders, in particular David Ben-Gurion, viewed the acceptance of the plan as a tactical step and a stepping stone to future territorial expansion over all of Palestine.[14][15][16][17][18][19] The Arab Higher Committee, the Arab League and other Arab leaders and governments rejected it, as in addition to the Arabs forming a two-thirds majority, they owned a majority of the lands.[20][21] They also indicated an unwillingness to accept any form of territorial division,[22] arguing that it violated the principles of national self-determination in the UN Charter which granted people the right to decide their own destiny.[8][23] They announced their intention to take all necessary measures to prevent the implementation of the resolution.[24][25][26][27] Subsequently, a civil war broke out in Palestine,[28] and the plan was not implemented.[29]

[Muizer]

He was asking very clearly how many more Palestinian civilians have to die before it is recognized that this is an atrocity.

If you quote me, please ensure that what you say next has some relation to it. I did, and it wasn't about that question.

I would repeat that question to those who are still not sure that 15,000 dead children is not normal at all in an anti-terrorist and release of hostages operation.

You make it sound as if this could have been some sort of surgical operation by special forces against a small group of amateur terrorists. It is, and was always going to be, a war between the armed forces of two governments. That is why 7/10 was either a monumental blunder or a suicide mission at national level. If the idiocy of 7/10 has not taught us Hamas need to be written off as flag bearers of the Palestinian cause, then what on earth will? They basically f*&^ed it up for the Gazans. I'm not going to pretend that is not actually what happened just because I'm on 'team Palestine' or something. I favour a 2 state solution, but I'm not on anybody's team. And even if I were it would be silly to play that game here in this backwater games forum.

[PointOfViewGun]

You make it sound as if this could have been some sort of surgical operation by special forces against a small group of amateur terrorists. It is, and was always going to be, a war between the armed forces of two governments. That is why 7/10 was either a monumental blunder or a suicide mission at national level. If the idiocy of 7/10 has not taught us Hamas need to be written off as flag bearers of the Palestinian cause, then what on earth will? They basically f*&^ed it up for the Gazans. I'm not going to pretend that is not actually what happened just because I'm on 'team Palestine' or something. I favour a 2 state solution, but I'm not on anybody's team. And even if I were it would be silly to play that game here in this backwater games forum.

You have just recently (two pages ago) lied about material facts concerning this conflict in a way that parrots Israeli propaganda. You're definitely arguing in favour of the Israeli camp.

[mishkin]

If you quote me, please ensure that what you say next has some relation to it. I did, and it wasn't about that question.




You make it sound as if this could have been some sort of surgical operation by special forces against a small group of amateur terrorists. It is, and was always going to be, a war between the armed forces of two governments. That is why 7/10 was either a monumental blunder or a suicide mission at national level. If the idiocy of 7/10 has not taught us Hamas need to be written off as flag bearers of the Palestinian cause, then what on earth will? They basically f*&^ed it up for the Gazans. I'm not going to pretend that is not actually what happened just because I'm on 'team Palestine' or something. I favour a 2 state solution, but I'm not on anybody's team. And even if I were it would be silly to play that game here in this backwater games forum.

If any of my answers don't make sense (I don't deny that that happens), explain it to me. That said, If you quote my question, let it be to answer it. How many children murdered would seem like a scandalous number to you?

Yes, I have always said that Israel should launch attacks as precise as it can, it has the capabilities to do so, it has the technology, a professional army and an anti-terrorist unit that should be among the best in the world. But Israel clearly prefers to simply raze Gaza, it is a fact that they have done so. How many hostages freed by the Israeli army? What proportion of Gaza devastated?

Hamas committed an atrocity on October 7, between that and holding Hamas responsible for everything that is happening next, for everything that the Palestinians are suffering, there is an abyss.

You have been talking all this time on the basis that the Hamas militias are the army of Palestine. As far as I know, you are the only one who has this point of view. If I'm right, can you explain that? Great if you think Palestine should be a state, but from there to speak as if Hamas is its army... Nobody here on "the Palestine team" has given them that role, and of course there is no Hamas team here.

"I'm not on anybody's team". Enjoy.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Ludicus]

You mean you did not say what you meant to say. Don't put that on me...

But I said what I mean to say....I think you misundertood what I said. On a side note: it seems to me that Israel is losing the battle for public opinion. Majority in U.S. Now Disapprove of Israeli Action in Gaza-Gallup News

The righteous pursuit of justice has become a reckless crusade for revenge

--

Israel-Gaza war live: IDF orders evacuation of central Rafah as it prepares to expand its offensive.

Biden said Rafah was a red line, now what? Netanyahu says he doesn't need more American weapons because Israel already has enough to launch the offensive.

Biden, the equilibrist. Biden admin punts on declaring Israel violated international law

criticized as inconclusive. It goes on to say that Israel didn’t give the U.S. enough evidence to adjudicate whether those arms were used to violate human rights in Gaza, the West Bank or East Jerusalem.

A CNN investigation has uncovered the horrors of a shadowy detention facility. CNN obtained rare accounts from Israelis working at the facility.



--
The UN general assembly has voted overwhelmingly to back the Palestinian bid for full UN membership. The resolution won a resounding majority of 143 votes in favor. Israel’s ambassador to the UN Gilad Erdan shreds U.N. charter in an angry speech.



UN calls Israeli envoy's shredding of UN charter 'theatric'

Urging all members to respect the UN Charter.

France to Israel: end military operation in Rafah immediately.Israël/Territoires palestiniens - Situation à Rafah (10.05.2024)
In French,

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

“La France déplore le lancement le 7 mai d’une opération militaire de l’armée israélienne à Rafah. Comme la France l’a déjà souligné, une telle opération menace de provoquer une situation catastrophique pour les populations civiles de Gaza, déjà déplacées à de multiples reprises. Les civils ne disposent d’aucune zone sûre aujourd’hui à Gaza. Nous appelons les autorités israéliennes à cesser cette opération militaire sans délai et à reprendre la voie des négociations, seule voie possible pour conduire à la libération immédiate des otages et obtenir un cessez-le-feu durable.
La France appelle Israël à rouvrir immédiatement le point de passage de Rafah vers l’Egypte, qui est indispensable tant pour l’accès de l’aide humanitaire à la population civile que pour permettre aux personnes les plus vulnérables de quitter la bande de Gaza. La France appelle de nouveau Israël à tout mettre en œuvre pour assurer la protection des civils et garantir l’accès de l’aide humanitaire, conformément au droit international et aux demandes de la Cour internationale de Justice".

Key points,
1 -We call on the Israeli authorities to immediately end this military operation and return to the path of negotiations, which is the only possible way to achieve the immediate release of the hostages and a permanent ceasefire.

2-Such an operation threatens to cause a catastrophic situation for the civilian population of Gaza, which has already been repeatedly displaced.

3-France calls on Israel to immediately reopen the crossing point "Rafah" to Egypt, which is essential both for humanitarian access to the civilian population and to enable the most vulnerable people to leave the Gaza Strip.
--

Because it matters: the Eurovision song contest is the world's largest live music event, with a global TV audience of more than 180 million people. Writing in The Guardian, Jeffrey Ingold argued that Israel’s participation exposes "double standards and glaring hypocrisy" Eurovision mirrors how countries see one another. That's I can’t watch Israel take part.

No amount of mental gymnastics can justify allowing its inclusion while a humanitarian catastrophe goes on in Gaza… The reality we are in is that both Russia and Israel are engaged in illegal invasions of other territories. Yet only one of them has been given the chance to perform on the world stage with more than 160 million viewers. Why is it that the value of “unity in music” only stretches to Ukraine?

Eurovision organisers rebuke Swedish singer wearing Palestinian scarf onstage

people have been finding different ways of showing their pro-Palestine support, such as wearing clothing and accessories with watermelon symbolism (the colors of the Palestinian flag), as well as donning a Keffiyeh.

So…on Sunday, Portuguese Iolanda appeared wearing a dress from a Palestinian brand, with the pattern of the keffiyeh, a scarf that is a symbol of Palestinian resistance. The grand final is scheduled for Saturday’s night. (today, in a few hours).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Her song "Grito" translates to English as "scream". When asked about her song, she said that the best description of it is "a scream of self-defence, freeing herself from the shackles of the past"
Quite appropriate for a "Palestinian" song, I say.

That being said-which is the best song? in my humble opinion, Israel’s song. It’s an amazing song. Eden Golan was booed during rehearsals and during the semifinal, with the crowd chanting "Free Palestine". What happens if Eden Golan wins? Israel could win Eurovision. That would cause major headaches for the song contest’s organizers.

[Paul Atreides]

Israel is pretty close to winning the Eurovision song contest, their odds are pretty good. Imagine the butthurt of the Pro-Hamas Comrades of the Fifth Column after that!

[Ludicus]

Yes, the odds were good, but not enough. Follow the money: two days before the contest, “A surge in bets on Israel in the past 48 hours”. Eurovision Song Contest Betting Odds

That was a good try, but it was not enough-because Israel (not the beautiful song) was politically punished by the juries of all 37 countries taking part in the Eurovision contest.

Let´s talk a little more about the political consequences of an "apolitical" song contest.

According to the news, "Portuguese broadcaster (RTP) confirms they were part of the emergency meeting with EBU last night. They also confirm they've seen the Israeli team harassing other contestants/delegations”: Greece, Swiss, Ireland and Netherlands.

Spanish broadcaster says , RTVE requests the EBU ensures freedom of the press following harassment of journalists at Eurovision.

Juan Ma elaborates that he was approached and intimidated by a number of Israeli journalists following comments he made on the ongoing crisis in Palestine.

Meanwhile in Netherlands Dutch broadcaster furious, fans bemused after Netherlands after Netherlands' Joost Klein is booted from Eurovision.

The official excuse: Klein was disqualified "following a threating movement." For a better comprehension, it must be said that “Moroccanoil” is an Israeli company and the Presenting Partner of the Eurovision Song Contest.

Norway added more fuel to fire. Alessandra Mele withdrew from her role as the spokesperson for delivering the jury points, over what she called the genocide in the Middle East Alessandra withdraws as Norway's Eurovision points

More- Belgium's national broadcaster interrupts Eurovision final to protest Israel's bombing of Gaza..

[mishkin]

Israeli settlers attack Gaza-bound aid convoy at West Bank crossing (The Guardian)

The US national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, described an Israeli settler attack on an aid convoy bound for Gaza as 'a total outrage'. On Monday, footage circulated on social media showing a group of men and women blocking aid trucks and pillaging and destroying their contents. Boxes of food headed for Gaza, which is in the grip of a humanitarian emergency, were thrown on to the ground. Israeli police did not appear to intervene in the incident at the Tarqumiya checkpoint, west of Hebron, in the Israeli-occupied West Bank

Normal Israelis doing Israeli things.

[Coughdrop addict]

Trump vows to deport anyone who protests against Israel's actions in Gaza: https://www.motherjones.com/politics...ollege-deport/

Basically Trump has thrown away any chance that any of the protestors who are angry with Biden might give him a look.

[Legio_Italica]

Yes, the smart political move as a Republican candidate is to alienate Jews and Republicans in the hope that some of the blue haired underemployed mentally ill youngsters and foreign jihadists who take summer jobs as protestors funded by top Biden donors will toss a mail-in protest vote your way when the weather cools off and they decide their voices have been heard enough.

It’s an incredible missed opportunity, but one I hope Trump will make up for by providing these champions of civil rights the opportunity to return home permanently. What he should really do, though, is prioritize investigation and prosecution of individuals and organizations that have made nationwide riots an American pastime during election year summers of late.

Pro-Palestinian protesters are backed by a surprising source: Biden’s biggest donors