Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2301
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post

    To put it in as simple terms as possible, if somewhat reductive too, at this rate, how soon before the UN becomes the League of Nations?
    Happy that at this moment, as it has been the last forty years, my country is fighting for the defense of the Palestinian people and for the recognition of the Palestinian state, something that would not be at all useless.

    Sorry, but it seems that your only objective here is to point out the hypocrisy and futility of any action on the part of the miserable "West". If you think more or something can be done (there is certainly much more that can be and should be done in my opinion, from simply not helping the Israeli army to sanctions and boycotting), please state it.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 18, 2024 at 02:03 PM.

  2. #2302

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The new york times article mentions it, but then so do you when you say 5-6 were shot outside the house, so I'm not sure why you're asking for a source.
    She doesn't actually say that they weren't killed by Hamas fire, she says they got caught in the middle.
    What NYT article? Why is it so hard to provide links? Your claims were that Hamas shot at least 2 hostages inside and they set the house on fire. The sources do not support these claims. The testimonies from the survivors indicate that much of the damage was done by the Israeli forces, not Hamas fighters.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It's funny how you continue trying to argue how humane they were, when they came to kidnap civilians (a warcrime), and then placed them as human shields between themselves and IDF forces. What noble knights in shining armour.

    These specific survivors were meant to be kidnapped, not killed, so yes there wasn't as much carnage. Well, if you ignore the fact they were kept next to the dead body of one of the locals who was shot by Hamas while holding a door closed.
    It's the survivor out of that house that labels her treatment at the hands of Hamas fighters as humane. I didn't attempt to pant them as noble knights but it looks like facing facts about Israeli brutality you can't even acknowledge Israeli survivor testimonies.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I thought you were referring to victims in general, not just this one case. My bad.
    See, when I notice I made a mistake I admit it, rather than deflect.
    Nothing I said could be understood that way. This is not you admitting a mistake but trying to cover up a blatant lie you could not defend as if it was a mistake.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Sigh. Let's explain the obvious meaning: no general order of the sort was given. Only one singular case.
    Nope. There are other cases. A reserve pilot from the Israel army even called it a "mass Hannibal" event.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Okay, so hostages not detainees.
    Other than this article, which doesn't source the claim, I can find no mention of anyone being held alive in the police station at the time. Hamas forces didn't enter Sderot to kidnap, but to kill. Not a single person from Sderot was taken to Gaza. Actually I think you're misinterpreting it. When it says 'The police station in Sderot was destroyed by Israeli tank fire after Hamas terrorists stormed it – killing the police officers inside', it means that the Hamas terrorists who stormed it killed the officers inside.
    The article is also just bad frankly. It alternates between calling Sderot a town and a village (Sderot is a city, in fact), claims Sderot was reduced to rubble (huh?), and claims that the airstrikes on Gaza are coming from Sderot (there's no airfield in Sderot).
    Not a single person from Sderot entered Gaza because Hamas intended to kill them in place or because of Israeli forces' actions? It couldn't be that they state Hamas fighters killed everyone inside since they had no knowledge of what was happening inside the station. When they couldn't get inside they simply shelled it and bulldozed it.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    There was actually an interview of a woman who was kidnapped, but then a helicopter killed the drivers and she escaped. You'd have to translate to English, but it's there.
    Meanwhile, from the thousands of people who were at the Nova festival, none reported a helicopter shooting? Curious.
    Colour me surprised when I wouldn't really base an opinion on what trance music festival goers would tell. We don't know the extend of the involvement of the helicopter. The festival was likely a series of tragedies. Israeli authorities themselves admitted that Hamas likely didn't know of the festival and that they stumbled upon it by chance. We also know that the Israeli created roadblocks that created the car pile up. Fighting between security forces and Hamas fighters happened there. The authorities new of a pending Hamas attack along the border but chose not to warn the festival or take measures which is why the survivors are suing the military of criminal negligence.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The post wasn't 'specifically about that', it was one of multiple things mentioned in it.
    I did refer to what you pointed out directly, which wasn't the sexual assault video's claim. l2read.
    I did not backtrack any claim. You pretend like I've made a claim I haven't made, and then you attack it. I believe that's called a strawman.
    It was though. Only two examples were mentioned. livestream videos of rape and tied up family burning. Your reaction was to claim that such videos do exist without making any distinction as you now claim.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I was having a discussion with you, and did not feel like engaging in another at the time. Why do I need to justify not replying to something not addressed at me?
    The post you responded within this context was not directed at you. It was directed at him, yet, you chose to respond to mine, while choosing to ignore his post which you apparently disagreed with. It shouldn't be this complex to answer what I asked you about your choice.
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  3. #2303
    Ukiah's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    April 14




    Today




  4. #2304
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Is this really a gamble by Israel that it will be better off if it causes a massive war in the middle east?
    Because with its new strike against Iran, it looks like this is the trajectory.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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  5. #2305
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    They will tell you that it is nothing, that they have really been at war against Iran for forty years, this is nothing more than a minimal escalation if you want to call it that. It is also nothing that they are going to raze the last refuge of the Palestinians, Rafah. They will be notified of the bombing in advance, those who do not voluntarily decide to die at the hands of the Israeli defense army can move again to another wilderness (a city without the necessary infrastructure, but next to the sea, the views are beautiful). Glory to Israel and its miserable ally the United States.

  6. #2306
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What NYT article? Why is it so hard to provide links? Your claims were that Hamas shot at least 2 hostages inside and they set the house on fire. The sources do not support these claims. The testimonies from the survivors indicate that much of the damage was done by the Israeli forces, not Hamas fighters.
    Good grief, it's like an episode of Dora the explorer. The map is right next to her, but she still asks where it is.
    I repeat: I misunderstood your statement, the house burning comment was not in relation to this specific incident. I did not claim they set *this* house on fire.
    I also did not claim they were shot inside the house, nor did I claim they were shot by Hamas specifically, but rather that they were killed during a firefight, which is also what the source you provided says (though it increases the number to 5/6). I don't see the need to provide a source when you already did.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    It's the survivor out of that house that labels her treatment at the hands of Hamas fighters as humane. I didn't attempt to pant them as noble knights but it looks like facing facts about Israeli brutality you can't even acknowledge Israeli survivor testimonies.
    Don't pretend like you haven't called them humane in multiple comments on this thread.



    Nothing I said could be understood that way. This is not you admitting a mistake but trying to cover up a blatant lie you could not defend as if it was a mistake.
    The next statement does not speak of the specific incident, and having split up your comment before replying to it, I did not realise the fire comment was speaking of the tank incident. You can tell I made a mistake because I said houses in my reply, twice. The tank incident only involved the one house.


    Nope. There are other cases.
    Did you read it, or did you link the first result you could find mentioning it? Because at no point does he say he was given such an order, but rather that he decided to act in a manner that is similar to the order. Note that it was his decision, he wasn't ordered to.
    A reserve pilot from the Israel army even called it a "mass Hannibal" event.
    But also does not mention any such order being given. You're trying to refute my claim that no such order was given, need I remind you.


    Not a single person from Sderot entered Gaza because Hamas intended to kill them in place or because of Israeli forces' actions?
    The former. The very first thing they did when they entered Sderot was kill a group of Elderly people whose car broke down, who would have been easy to capture and return to Gaza, and then continued on to shoot at cars on the streets of the city at random.
    It couldn't be that they state Hamas fighters killed everyone inside since they had no knowledge of what was happening inside the station. When they couldn't get inside they simply shelled it and bulldozed it.
    When you have hostages, you make the other side aware. They were in the police station from the morning up until the night, and at no point was the presence of hostages communicated. There remains no confirmation whatsoever that they had hostages at any point.
    Colour me surprised when I wouldn't really base an opinion on what trance music festival goers would tell.
    Hilarious, considering that's exactly what you're doing just a few paragraphs up. The hostage you're quoting as calling the terrorists humane was one of the people present at the trance music festival, who then fled to Be'eri.
    So do you or do you not take the testimony of trance music festival goers?
    Nice self own.
    We don't know the extend of the involvement of the helicopter. The festival was likely a series of tragedies. Israeli authorities themselves admitted that Hamas likely didn't know of the festival and that they stumbled upon it by chance. We also know that the Israeli created roadblocks that created the car pile up. Fighting between security forces and Hamas fighters happened there. The authorities new of a pending Hamas attack along the border but chose not to warn the festival or take measures which is why the survivors are suing the military of criminal negligence.

    We have nothing placing a helicopter on the scene, besides a report from haaretz that has been denied by those it claims the report came from. No witness testimonies, no videos, nothing.
    'A series of tragedies' is such a vile way of putting it. Hamas rolled up and started shooting into the crowd. This is on video. They came up to bomb shelters that party goers tried to hide inside of and started tossing grenade after grenade into them. This is on video. They stood on the road and shot at cars driving by, which created blockages. This is on video. They walked up to people and executed them. This is on video.
    364 People were murdered at the Nova music festival. This was a massacre. Stop justifying and excusing it. It's abhorrant.
    It was though. Only two examples were mentioned. livestream videos of rape and tied up family burning. Your reaction was to claim that such videos do exist without making any distinction as you now claim.
    My memory is not that of a goldfish, this won't work on me.
    The video I was talking about is the video I specifically mentioned, namely:
    "There's a video they recorded and posted themselves of cutting up a pregnant woman, taking the infant out, killing it in front of her, and then killing her. "
    The part of your reply that I was referring to in further comments was this:
    "Watching a few videos of questionable origin doesn't legitimize your attempt to sensationalize the situation any time Israeli responsibility is mentioned."
    Where you seem to be questioning the legitimacy the only video I've mentioned in the post you quoted. Hence my next comment:
    "'A few videos of questionable origin' fing hell. Are you serious right now?!"
    That continues with:
    "I'm not denying any videos. I'm rejecting claims on videos that nobody are able to reference in detail or link."
    Which appears to be you denying, yet again, the only video I've mentioned. To which I made the reply you now refer to.

    The post you responded within this context was not directed at you. It was directed at him, yet, you chose to respond to mine, while choosing to ignore his post which you apparently disagreed with. It shouldn't be this complex to answer what I asked you about your choice.
    Because it was a disgusting post, and I felt the need to point out the similarities between your strategies and those of Holocaust deniers.

  7. #2307
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    The death toll from an Israeli airstrike that targeted the Al-Maghazi refugee camp has risen to 14, including eight children, according to Al-Aqsa hospital officials. CNN

    Gaza death toll rises to 33,175, says Ministry of Health

    I don't know what to say when I hear about Holocaust deniers and at the same time there are people who claim that this is a valid response to what happened on October 7 and that the responsibility lies with Hamas. Negationism to the core.

    I miss that guy who every now and then posted here news of "vandalism protests" in the United States and Europe against Israel. It was intolerable anti-Semitism, they said.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 19, 2024 at 04:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Good grief, it's like an episode of Dora the explorer. The map is right next to her, but she still asks where it is.
    I repeat: I misunderstood your statement, the house burning comment was not in relation to this specific incident. I did not claim they set *this* house on fire.
    I also did not claim they were shot inside the house, nor did I claim they were shot by Hamas specifically, but rather that they were killed during a firefight, which is also what the source you provided says (though it increases the number to 5/6). I don't see the need to provide a source when you already did.
    Once again, you're merely hiding behind the excuse of making a mistake when in fact you simply made it up and got called on it. What you claim to misunderstood does not make sense as what I said could not be understood that way. You said that there were 12 hostages inside the house and that 2 of them died before the tank fire. You statements implied that a separate firefight occurred before the tank fire when in fact the tank fire was part of the firefight. The 5-6 number I mentioned was not tied to hostages inside the house but what the survivor witnessed outside the house. Your reluctance to link to an article you already referenced can only stem from the contents of such an article not supporting what you claimed.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Don't pretend like you haven't called them humane in multiple comments on this thread.
    Where? But again, the term is literally what a survivor from that house used.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The next statement does not speak of the specific incident, and having split up your comment before replying to it, I did not realise the fire comment was speaking of the tank incident. You can tell I made a mistake because I said houses in my reply, twice. The tank incident only involved the one house.
    It does speak directly of that incident. I reference the tank incident specifically and point out what happened to some of "those" people. It really doesn't go more basic than this.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Did you read it, or did you link the first result you could find mentioning it? Because at no point does he say he was given such an order, but rather that he decided to act in a manner that is similar to the order. Note that it was his decision, he wasn't ordered to.
    But also does not mention any such order being given. You're trying to refute my claim that no such order was given, need I remind you.
    We have a second case of tank operative describe using the Hannibal Directive and a reserve pilot in the rank of colonel describing the events of October 7 as a mass Hannibal event. I really don't need to say more.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The former. The very first thing they did when they entered Sderot was kill a group of Elderly people whose car broke down, who would have been easy to capture and return to Gaza, and then continued on to shoot at cars on the streets of the city at random.
    That they targeted some random cars in Sderot doesn't really tell you what they did in the station.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    When you have hostages, you make the other side aware. They were in the police station from the morning up until the night, and at no point was the presence of hostages communicated. There remains no confirmation whatsoever that they had hostages at any point.
    Can you provide the transcription of these communications?


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Hilarious, considering that's exactly what you're doing just a few paragraphs up. The hostage you're quoting as calling the terrorists humane was one of the people present at the trance music festival, who then fled to Be'eri.
    So do you or do you not take the testimony of trance music festival goers?
    Nice self own.
    She was not among the crowds at the moment of the attack which is why she was able to leave the premises with relative ease. By the time Hamas fighters entered the house they sheltered in over 6 hours have passed. Please check the details before diving into such jabs. We're also working on your assumption of knowledge on festival survivor testimonies.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post

    We have nothing placing a helicopter on the scene, besides a report from haaretz that has been denied by those it claims the report came from. No witness testimonies, no videos, nothing.
    Hareetz source did not deny the claims. The police department did. Those are two different things.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    'A series of tragedies' is such a vile way of putting it. Hamas rolled up and started shooting into the crowd. This is on video. They came up to bomb shelters that party goers tried to hide inside of and started tossing grenade after grenade into them. This is on video. They stood on the road and shot at cars driving by, which created blockages. This is on video. They walked up to people and executed them. This is on video.
    364 People were murdered at the Nova music festival. This was a massacre. Stop justifying and excusing it. It's abhorrant.
    You show us the deceptive argumentation on what happened that day quite nicely. You have a video of fighters shooting at a particular direction, not randomly. The video doesn't show them shooting at random cars on the road. It shoes them shooting from the road to a distant target(s). We also know that they were engaged with Israeli forces. We have similar videos of Israeli soldiers shooting at distant targets. In both cases we don't see who they're shooting at. If these videos showed Palestinian civilians in Gaza or West Bank not obeying to Israeli soldier's order and getting shot you wouldn't be calling it abhorrent.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    My memory is not that of a goldfish, this won't work on me.
    The video I was talking about is the video I specifically mentioned, namely:
    "There's a video they recorded and posted themselves of cutting up a pregnant woman, taking the infant out, killing it in front of her, and then killing her. "
    The part of your reply that I was referring to in further comments was this:
    "Watching a few videos of questionable origin doesn't legitimize your attempt to sensationalize the situation any time Israeli responsibility is mentioned."
    Where you seem to be questioning the legitimacy the only video I've mentioned in the post you quoted. Hence my next comment:
    "'A few videos of questionable origin' fing hell. Are you serious right now?!"
    That continues with:
    "I'm not denying any videos. I'm rejecting claims on videos that nobody are able to reference in detail or link."
    Which appears to be you denying, yet again, the only video I've mentioned. To which I made the reply you now refer to.
    Just wow. The way you're trying to spin this is simply amazing. You're jumbling up different points in discussion to argue as if its what you've been arguing about all along. I'll post the discussion with actual links in order:

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    there are videos online. There's a video they recorded and posted themselves of cutting up a pregnant woman, taking the infant out, killing it in front of her, and then killing her.
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Yup. I have seen how Israelis lied about decapitated babies and entire families burnt while being tied together. ... Watching a few videos of questionable origin doesn't legitimize your attempt to sensationalize the situation any time Israeli responsibility is mentioned.
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    'A few videos of questionable origin' fing hell. Are you serious right now?!
    ...
    You even deny the legitimacy of real videos, available online to watch, that Hamas operatives shot and uploaded themselves because they were so proud of their actions.
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I'm not denying any videos. I'm rejecting claims on videos that nobody are able to reference in detail or link. Much of the videos claimed to be portraying livestream of Hamas raping women or burning families together bind with rope simply does not exist.
    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    DIsgusting. The videos exist, I cannot link them without violating the TOS. You can easily find one of many websites documenting Hamas atrocities, the video I mentioned is on there. I've seen it. Heck, I'm sure if you added a .com to the word Hamas you'd see some.
    Fighters cutting open a pregnant woman is another falsehood. One such video was exposed to be from Mexico 2018.

    Much of what you argue here seems to be based on Zaka operatives' testimonies that are often found to be untrue. You're not basing your arguments on content that you have seens, which is apparent by your failure to source them, but based on what these people falsely claimed:
    American Media Keep Citing Zaka - Though Its October 7 Atrocity Stories Are Discredited in Israel
    In the case of the butchered mother and fetus, the Israeli newspaper Haaretz concluded the killing “simply didn’t happen.” As for the tortured family, no one killed in Be’eri matches Landau’s account. The one brother and sister to die in the kibbutz were 12-year-old twins, killed when an Israeli general ordered a tank to fire on a house where Hamas militants were holding them hostage. Nevertheless, Landau told these stories unchecked in interviews and press conferences.
    No one else has corroborated Greiniman’s story of foreign fighters. Months later, another source did claim to find five dead women tied naked to trees: According to a new report from an Israeli group, a farmer who rescued attendees from the music festival alleged the five women’s organs were all slashed and made bizarre claims about sexual mutilation. In three previous interviews, the farmer never made such claims nor is there any forensic or photo evidence to back up his account.

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Because it was a disgusting post, and I felt the need to point out the similarities between your strategies and those of Holocaust deniers.
    That still doesn't address what I'm pointing out and I have given you ample chance to provide a straight answer of which you chose to dance around.
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  9. #2309
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Let's summarize what happened. On April 1 Israel accomplished an unprecedented feat, as far as we can recall, in the diplomatic-military history of modern times: it attacked a diplomatic installation of another country in the capital of a third country, Damascus, killing eight officials of/in that installation. Secretary-General Condemns Attack on Diplomatic Premises ...

    The Secretary-General reaffirms that the principle of the inviolability of diplomatic and consular premises and personnel must be respected in all cases in accordance with international law
    It was, beyond any legitimate doubt, an act of war. However, called upon to condemn Israel's attack at the UN Security Council, the Western bloc opposed any condemnation! US, UK, France block UN condemnation of attack on Iran's US, UK, France block UN condemnation of attack on Iran's ...

    Imagine what would happen if Putin had fired a missile at the Ukrainian Consulate in Poland... On April 14, Iran retaliated, which was obviously what Israel expected/desired. And suddenly, as if by magic, Israel went from aggressor to victim: European leaders condemn Iran's revenge attack on Israel

    What is, after all, the moral criterion that sets us apart from others? Ask the children of Gaza, ask the rose of Hiroshima: an atomic anti-rose
    ---
    Edit,
    In Europe, there are some honorable exceptions.Spain leads European push to recognise Palestine, risking Israel's wrath
    Pedro Sanchez, Yolanda Diaz in Spain, Ireland of course, and what’s more? Yolanda Díaz detalla su próximo viaje a Palestina
    But those cynical European leaders who in six months, could not find any reasons to punish Israel or its rulers with sanctions that would harm their common businesses, are now going to study sanctions against Iran…
    --
    Let’s keep in mind that… "As of 4 April 2024, 140 of the 193 United Nations (UN) member states have recognized the State of Palestine" International recognition of the State of Palestine
    Anyway- It’s not a surprise, Security Council Fails to Recommend Full United Nations Membership for State of Palestine, Owing to Veto Cast by United States...
    The proposal, submitted by Algeria, received 12 votes in favour, with the United States casting a negative vote and Switzerland and the United Kingdom abstaining. A Council resolution requires at least nine votes in favour and no vetoes from its five permanent members.
    Last edited by Ludicus; April 19, 2024 at 03:58 PM.
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  10. #2310

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    So...... will it happen tomorrow?


  11. #2311
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Religion is negative at the best of times, but a cow prophecy, really? ^^
    The leadership of Hamas is relocating to Turkey, btw (not that half of it wasn't there to begin with). I view this too partly as related to religion - to the extent that it makes some not care about what trash Hamas is, just because it's nominally their version of religious.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  12. #2312
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Let's summarize what happened. On April 1 Israel accomplished an unprecedented feat, as far as we can recall, in the diplomatic-military history of modern times: it attacked a diplomatic installation of another country in the capital of a third country, Damascus, killing eight officials of/in that installation. Secretary-General Condemns Attack on Diplomatic Premises ...

    Yes, unprecedented, Iran would never attack an embassy.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Once again, you're merely hiding behind the excuse of making a mistake when in fact you simply made it up and got called on it. What you claim to misunderstood does not make sense as what I said could not be understood that way.
    Amazing how in order to continue to rely on pretending to not understanding my arguments, you must now argue that I could not possibly have misunderstood your statement. It's an odd tactic, to put it lightly. In reality it's quite easy to see I made a mistake, because as I pointed out, I said houses, plural. Not singular.
    You said that there were 12 hostages inside the house
    Initially, 14, but 2 survived so I didn't count them for this purpose. This is confirmed by your source too, if you look at its sources. Porat in the interview says they were about 12 inside in her interview. In your source.

    "In order to slow down the advance of the soldiers, the kidnappers forced about half of the hostages to go to the back yard of the Cohen family. They placed the hostages between the forces and the house, according to Mrs. Dagan and Mrs. Porat. Expecting crossfire, the hostages lay down near the wall of the house, Mrs. Dagan cradled her husband in the back. At around 4:00 p.m., the police and the gunmen began an exchange of fire, the two women recalled. The hostages in the backyard were caught in the middle."
    and that 2 of them died before the tank fire. You statements implied that a separate firefight occurred before the tank fire when in fact the tank fire was part of the firefight. The 5-6 number I mentioned was not tied to hostages inside the house but what the survivor witnessed outside the house. Your reluctance to link to an article you already referenced can only stem from the contents of such an article not supporting what you claimed.
    The 5-6 were hostages that were taken from inside of the house to the outside. Here you go, though once again, it's in Hebrew and you'd have to translate it. The relevant bits:
    "One of the chilling stories that happened in the massacre at Kibbutz Bari, was the incident in which 14 hostages were held in the house of Psi Cohen, a resident of the kibbutz. "A single tank had just arrived," it says, "and at Pasi Cohen's house, where the 14 hostages were held, a complex situation developed."

    "In order to slow down the advance of the soldiers, the kidnappers forced about half of the hostages to go to the back yard of the Cohen family. They placed the hostages between the forces and the house, according to Mrs. Dagan and Mrs. Porat. Expecting crossfire, the hostages lay down near the wall of the house, Mrs. Dagan cradled her husband in the back. At around 4:00 p.m., the police and the gunmen began an exchange of fire, the two women recalled. The hostages in the backyard were caught in the middle."


    After the two arrived safely at the police station, the shooting continued, on and off, for more than an hour. During another lull, Ms. Dagan opened her eyes to see at least two hostages and a kidnapper who had been shot dead. It is not clear who killed them, she said."

    Seeing as Mrs.Dagan was inside the house the whole time, it appears two hostages were killed during the firefight inside the house, in addition to those of the 5/6 outside who had also been shot.


    It does speak directly of that incident. I reference the tank incident specifically and point out what happened to some of "those" people. It really doesn't go more basic than this.
    What? The next sentence is "Given the Hannibal Directive that ordered soldiers to stop Hamas fighters using any means necessary with disregard for civilian lives, it's likely that other cases exist."
    I mistook the sentence about the house fire to be a separate incident, not realising you meant it in referrence to the tank incident. Why is this so hard to understand?

    We have a second case of tank operative describe using the Hannibal Directive and a reserve pilot in the rank of colonel describing the events of October 7 as a mass Hannibal event. I really don't need to say more.
    When trying to prove that an order was given, you need to provide evidence of an order being given. Not people acting on their own.

    That they targeted some random cars in Sderot doesn't really tell you what they did in the station.
    lol.
    Can you provide the transcription of these communications?
    Are you asking me to provide transcriptions of something I said doesn't exist?
    She was not among the crowds at the moment of the attack which is why she was able to leave the premises with relative ease. By the time Hamas fighters entered the house they sheltered in over 6 hours have passed. Please check the details before diving into such jabs. We're also working on your assumption of knowledge on festival survivor testimonies.
    You said "Colour me surprised when I wouldn't really base an opinion on what trance music festival goers would tell."
    And then you based an opinion on what a trance music festival goer told.
    She left to get refreshed before the attack on the festival started, so that makes her opinion more valid? Come on. You can do better.

    Hareetz source did not deny the claims. The police department did. Those are two different things.
    Haaretz* source is a non existing police report. It's a fabrication.

    You show us the deceptive argumentation on what happened that day quite nicely. You have a video of fighters shooting at a particular direction, not randomly. The video doesn't show them shooting at random cars on the road. It shoes them shooting from the road to a distant target(s). We also know that they were engaged with Israeli forces. We have similar videos of Israeli soldiers shooting at distant targets. In both cases we don't see who they're shooting at. If these videos showed Palestinian civilians in Gaza or West Bank not obeying to Israeli soldier's order and getting shot you wouldn't be calling it abhorrent.
    You'll go to any lengths to justify the absolute worst of atrocities, I see. Also noteworthy that you only reference 1 of the 4 videos I've linked. You say they're not shooting at cars, when right there is a video from a dashcam of a car trying to drive past and being shot at, the driver likely killed. You ignore the video of them throwing grenades into a tight space packed with civilians.
    As for 'shooting at a particular direction, not randomly' yeah, they're shooting at the people at the festival. What are you expecting to see here, 360 no scopes? Ugh.


    Just wow. The way you're trying to spin this is simply amazing. You're jumbling up different points in discussion to argue as if its what you've been arguing about all along. I'll post the discussion with actual links in order:
    You uh, posted the same stuff I did. lol.



    Fighters cutting open a pregnant woman is another falsehood. One such video was exposed to be from Mexico 2018.

    Much of what you argue here seems to be based on Zaka operatives' testimonies that are often found to be untrue. You're not basing your arguments on content that you have seens, which is apparent by your failure to source them, but based on what these people falsely claimed:
    American Media Keep Citing Zaka - Though Its October 7 Atrocity Stories Are Discredited in Israel
    Good to know it's not from now, you should have started with that. You seem to be correct as far as I can tell, so I'll take back this claim. Plenty of other horrific videos are, unfortunately, very much real. Websites such as Hamas-Massacre document quite a lot of footage.

    That still doesn't address what I'm pointing out and I have given you ample chance to provide a straight answer of which you chose to dance around.
    I've never once said the 40 babies story was true, if that's what you refer to. It isn't. I never made that claim, as you likely found out when attempting to back up the false claim that you made as to me propagating it. You're still trying to spin it into a win, however, against a claim I've never made.

  13. #2313
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    As far as we know, the attack was perpetrated by a non state armed group,not by Iran itself. I quote,
    Their stated motive for the attack was Israel's assassination of Hezbollah Secretary General Sayed Abbas al-Musawi in February 1992
    ---

    Israel has yet to provide evidence of Unrwa staff terrorist links, Colonna report says.
    Review finds government has yet to substantiate claims UN relief agency staff have ties to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, an independent review led by the former French foreign minister Catherine Colonna has said.
    Israel to summon ambassadors of 6 countries that voted for palestinian membership

    Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Oren Marmorstein said…
    “An identical protest will be presented to additional countries,” he said in a post on X.
    “The unambiguous message that will be delivered to the ambassadors: A political gesture to the Palestinians and a call to recognize a Palestinian state – six months after the October 7 massacre – is a prize for terrorism.”
    Well, Spain will deliver the “prize for terrorism” in a few weeks, Here
    … has strong backing amongst the Spanish population.
    --

    As someone puts it, “The U.S. doesn’t support a two-state solution, the U.S. only supports saying the U.S. supports a two-state solution”.

    https://twitter.com/i/status/1781075863917720050


    ---
    Asna Tabassum. Berkeley was the historical birthplace of the student Free Speech Movement in the 1960s. But now, things are changing…why was a valedictorian’s speech removed from USC’s ceremony?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Statement by University of Southern California Student Asna Tabassum, Class of 2024 Valedictorian:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    I am honored to have been selected as USC Class of 2024 Valedictorian. Although this should have been a time of celebration for my family, friends, professors, and classmates, anti-Muslim and anti-Palestinian voices have subjected me to a campaign of racist hatred because of my uncompromising belief in human rights for all.
    This campaign to prevent me from addressing my peers at commencement has evidently accomplished its goal: today, USC administrators informed me that the university will no longer allow me to speak at commencement due to supposed security concerns. I am both shocked by this decision and profoundly disappointed that the University is succumbing to a campaign of hate meant to silence my voice.
    I am not surprised by those who attempt to propagate hatred. I am surprised that my own university—my home for four years—has abandoned me.
    In a meeting with the USC Provost and the Associate Senior Vice President of Safety and Risk Assurance on April 14, I asked about the alleged safety concerns and was told that the University had the resources to take appropriate safety measures for my valedictory speech, but that they would not be doing so since increased security protections is not what the University wants to “present as an image.”
    Because I am not aware of any specific threats against me or the university, because my request for the details underlying the university’s threat assessment has been denied, and because I am not being provided any increased safety to be able to speak at commencement, there remain serious doubts about whether USC’s decision to revoke my invitation to speak is made solely on the basis of safety.
    Instead of allowing the campaign of hatred to define who I am and what I stand for, let me therefore take this opportunity to tell you about myself.
    I am a first-generation South Asian-American Muslim whose passion for service stems from the experience of my grandparents, who were unable to access lifesaving medical technology because they had been displaced by communal violence.
    I am a biomedical engineer who learned the meaning of health equity through developing low-cost and accessible jaundice for babies whose darker skin color conceals the visual yellowing of their complexion.
    I am a proud Trojan who loves my campus that has enabled me to go from building a walker to shipping medical gowns to Ukraine to writing about the Rwandan Genocide to taking blood pressure measurements for our neighbors in Skid Row.
    I am a student of history who chose to minor in resistance to genocide, anchored by the Shoah Foundation, and have learned that ordinary people are capable of unspeakable acts of violence when they are taught hate fueled by fear. And due to widespread fear, I was hoping to use my commencement speech to inspire my classmates with a message of hope. By canceling my speech, USC is only caving to fear and rewarding hatred.
    My identities and experiences inspired me to think outside the box—a mindset I cultivated at USC, and it is this very quality that contributed to my selection as USC Valedictorian.
    As your class Valedictorian, I implore my USC classmates to think outside the box—to work towards a world where cries for equality and human dignity are not manipulated to be expressions of hatred. I challenge us to respond to ideological discomfort with dialogue and
    learning, not bigotry and censorship. And I urge us to see past our deepest fears and recognize the need to support justice for all people, including the Palestinian people.


    Interview with Asna. Highly intelligent, she speaks better than most of the US politicians.


    Will the 'cancel culture' crowd speak up about the silencing Asna Tabassum? Don’t hold your breath.-The Guardian

    Excerpt,
    The University of Southern California canceled its valedictorian’s planned speech after pro-Palestinian posts. It’s no surprise.
    If you want to get ahead in life then I have some advice: keep your mouth shut about Palestine. Or, if you must say something, then make sure it is nuanced like – I’m just paraphrasing a former Mossad agent here – no Palestinian over the age of four is an innocent civilian and they all deserve to be starved to death. Certainly make sure you don’t use controversial words like “genocide” or “occupation”, even if those are accurate descriptions according to international law and UN human rights experts. Best to avoid considering Palestinians as humans altogether, rather think of them as Israel’s defense minister does – “human animals” – if you want to avoid unpleasantness.
    (…). USC declined my request to clarify their official statement. But here’s a somewhat more straightforward description of what appears to have happened: campus pro-Israel groups trawled through Tabassum’s social media history in order to find posts that were sympathetic to Palestine and then proceeded to smear her with bad-faith accusations of antisemitism.
    Instead of standing up for a student that USC had recognized as exemplary, the university caved into pressure to silence her.
    (…) cancelling her speech under the vague pretext of “safety” is disingenuous. Let’s be very clear: if Tabassum were pro-Israel and her Instagram linked to any of the very many genocidal things that the Israeli government had said about Palestinians, there is little chance her speech would have been cancelled. Jared Kushner, let’s not forget, was just at Harvard advocating for the ethnic cleansing of Palestinians. (Kushner said that he thought Israel should move civilians out of Gaza into the desert while it “cleans up” the strip. He added that the Palestinians should absolutely not have their own state and mused that waterfront property in Gaza could be very valuable.)
    (…) People who support the attacks on Gaza seem free to say the most depraved and racist things possible about Arabs, Muslims, and Palestinians without facing any consequences whatsoever.
    What’s left out of these nonstop discussions of campus safety is this: there isn’t a single safe campus left in Gaza. Israel, with the unconditional aid of the US, has destroyed almost every kindergarten, school, and university in Gaza. It has killed at least 100 Palestinian academics. It has decimated every cultural institution. There are over 13,000 dead children in Gaza who will never have the opportunity of an education. You should not be able to talk about campus safety without mentioning the fact that, thanks to US-backed Israeli air strikes, every campus in Gaza is now a graveyard.
    Ouch.
    ---
    Censorship/censorious attitudes are on the rise everywhere, and in Europe Germany stands out for its persecution of politicians and academics like Varoufakis, and for banning others from entering the country because of their views on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. The Gaza war has been used as a pretext to cancel conferences and invitations, as happened to dr. Abu Sittah, Rector at the University of Glasgow, because it is "forbidden" to criticize Israel.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #2314

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Amazing how in order to continue to rely on pretending to not understanding my arguments, you must now argue that I could not possibly have misunderstood your statement. It's an odd tactic, to put it lightly. In reality it's quite easy to see I made a mistake, because as I pointed out, I said houses, plural. Not singular.
    No tactic other than stating the obvious. I do understand what you say fully. No question there. Your piggybacks just don't make sense.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Initially, 14, but 2 survived so I didn't count them for this purpose. This is confirmed by your source too, if you look at its sources. Porat in the interview says they were about 12 inside in her interview. In your source.
    Really? That's what you're going with? You said 12 hostages were inside the house because 2 others made it alive at the end of the day? Sigh... Then you say that Porat points at 12 hostages being in the house though she actually says "about 12 hostages" in the recording. You yourself started with 14 though. Which is it? At this point we're not arguing whether there were 12 or 14 hostages in the house. We're arguing about how random senseless arguments you're shooting to fill in the blanks.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The 5-6 were hostages that were taken from inside of the house to the outside. Here you go, though once again, it's in Hebrew and you'd have to translate it. The relevant bits:
    "One of the chilling stories that happened in the massacre at Kibbutz Bari, was the incident in which 14 hostages were held in the house of Psi Cohen, a resident of the kibbutz. "A single tank had just arrived," it says, "and at Pasi Cohen's house, where the 14 hostages were held, a complex situation developed."
    "In order to slow down the advance of the soldiers, the kidnappers forced about half of the hostages to go to the back yard of the Cohen family. They placed the hostages between the forces and the house, according to Mrs. Dagan and Mrs. Porat. Expecting crossfire, the hostages lay down near the wall of the house, Mrs. Dagan cradled her husband in the back. At around 4:00 p.m., the police and the gunmen began an exchange of fire, the two women recalled. The hostages in the backyard were caught in the middle."
    After the two arrived safely at the police station, the shooting continued, on and off, for more than an hour. During another lull, Ms. Dagan opened her eyes to see at least two hostages and a kidnapper who had been shot dead. It is not clear who killed them, she said."
    Seeing as Mrs.Dagan was inside the house the whole time, it appears two hostages were killed during the firefight inside the house, in addition to those of the 5/6 outside who had also been shot.
    Porat points them out as being shot by the Israeli forces in the crossfire. Pardon me if I don't think it makes sense to argue over whether those were killed by the tank fire or bullets from the Israeli forces.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    What? The next sentence is "Given the Hannibal Directive that ordered soldiers to stop Hamas fighters using any means necessary with disregard for civilian lives, it's likely that other cases exist."
    I mistook the sentence about the house fire to be a separate incident, not realising you meant it in reference to the tank incident. Why is this so hard to understand?
    Because it doesn't really make sense to understand it that way. What I said there doesn't get any more basic.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    When trying to prove that an order was given, you need to provide evidence of an order being given. Not people acting on their own.
    I don't really need an extreme level of proofing to satisfy your needs. What you're trying to bank at is a form of fallacy.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Are you asking me to provide transcriptions of something I said doesn't exist?
    Lack of communication of hostage presence would indeed be present in the communications. I'm merely illustrating that you're just making assumptions as if you're claiming facts.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You said "Colour me surprised when I wouldn't really base an opinion on what trance music festival goers would tell."
    And then you based an opinion on what a trance music festival goer told.
    She left to get refreshed before the attack on the festival started, so that makes her opinion more valid? Come on. You can do better.
    Yes, I wouldn't really base an opinion on what raving people saw at a trance festival (based on what you claim about them) while have more faith in what someone experiences over 6 hours later corroborated by people not been to the festival at all. I also pointed out that we didn't know the extend of the involvement of the helicopter. If muddying the waters is all you're left with you need new arguments.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Haaretz* source is a non existing police report. It's a fabrication.
    Hareetz didn't point at a police report. It reported at a police source. The least you can do is be accurate about what you're denying.



    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You'll go to any lengths to justify the absolute worst of atrocities, I see.
    Nothing I argued can be construed to be justification of any atrocity. Arguing that something didn't happen doesn't make it


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Also noteworthy that you only reference 1 of the 4 videos I've linked. You say they're not shooting at cars, when right there is a video from a dashcam of a car trying to drive past and being shot at, the driver likely killed. You ignore the video of them throwing grenades into a tight space packed with civilians.
    As for 'shooting at a particular direction, not randomly' yeah, they're shooting at the people at the festival. What are you expecting to see here, 360 no scopes? Ugh.
    I did reference multiple videos but focused on one. No need to provide you a forensic analysis of all of them. The trend in your take about the first one persists for the others too. The fact is that you do not know what they're shooting at in the first video you linked to which is the first one I referenced. There is no indication that they're shooting at the festival as there is no visible structure of any sorts in the direction they're shooting at. It would fit nicely with the video of Israeli soldiers firing from a similar location at a distant bank. We have similar misleading context for the others. The car not stopping to obey fighter's orders? The fighter in the middle of a firefight with someone firing back from a room that he threw the grenade to? You don't know. If these were Israeli soldiers in Gaza or West Bank responding with violence like Hamas fighters did against civilians that were either protecting themselves or trying to go by their own business you wouldn't making the arguments you make here.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    You uh, posted the same stuff I did. lol.
    Not really. Posting the relevant bits of a conversation in sequential order is quite different from whatever confusion you tried to create.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Good to know it's not from now, you should have started with that. You seem to be correct as far as I can tell, so I'll take back this claim. Plenty of other horrific videos are, unfortunately, very much real. Websites such as Hamas-Massacre document quite a lot of footage.
    It's partially a copy paste from an earlier post actually. One that you already responded to by calling it Holocaust denial level mental gymnastics. Now you are completely abandoning your claim that such videos exist and that the only thing stopping you from posting them was the ToS.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I've never once said the 40 babies story was true, if that's what you refer to. It isn't. I never made that claim, as you likely found out when attempting to back up the false claim that you made as to me propagating it. You're still trying to spin it into a win, however, against a claim I've never made.
    Still not what I'm talking about. You've tried deflecting it so much that you're way off the mark of what you're actually responding to.
    The Armenian Issue

  15. #2315

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Thread on compilations of Israeli lies (each post contains photos and videos presented as evidence):
    1- The IDF blatantly claimed this underground WATER TANK was a "Hamas tunnel" their ground troops discovered at the Qatari hospital in Gaza on Nov 5 2023Mainstream media put it in headlines immediately despite experts challenging this lie with detailed maps of the room
    In February, local journalists were finally able to access the area & debunk the lie
    The IDF knew exactly what this shaft was back in Nov b/c their troops inspected it on the ground, but they lied deliberately to pave the way for raiding, besieging, bombing, & destroying almost every single hospital in Gaza
    2\ Bombing fleeing refugees: Israel bombed a convoy of Gazans fleeing south on the very "safe road" they ordered to go through, killing over 70 on Oct 13.Israel immediately denied bombing the convoy & said it was Hamas.
    Financial Times found Israel was lying.
    The damage was consist with an Israeli airstrike!
    https://ft.com/content/95c5fcf1-c756...8-1e4bbff24736
    3\ In Nov, Israel lied (again) about Palestinian detainee Mohammed Nazal who was mercilessly beaten & tortured by Israeli prison guards for no reason until they broke his arms & denied him medical treatment.
    BBC confirmed with 2 UK doctors that his arms were indeed broken.
    4\ In Nov, CNN mindlessly platformed a blatant IDF claim that a calendar showing the days of the week at the Rantisi children's hospital was “a guarding list where every terrorist writes his name & every terrorist has his own shift guarding the people that were here.”
    CNN quietly deleted that embarrassing clip without any apology
    5\ Fake Nurse: in Nov, Israel's gov posted this "nurse from al-Shifa hospital in Gaza" that claimed in the thickest Israeli accent ever that Hamas has taken over the hospital & is stealing fuel, medicine & anesthetics from patients & children.
    France24 reported it was a "staged crisis acting" & the explosions were fake after Palestinians debunked it thoroughly.
    6\ Shifa hospital CGI: the IDF released this ultimate "trust me bro" cartoon video claiming it showed a sprawling tunnel city under Gaza's biggest hospital.Mainstream media (NYT, CNN...) mindlessly repeated the claim.
    No "tunnel city" was found despited the IDF raiding, destroying & burning down the hospital twice.
    Only one alleged abandoned tunnel with rusty tiles 2 dust-coated beds, a bathroom, kitchen & pair of metal cots was found that the Associated Press wasn't convinced it was evidence of anything.
    7\ In Oct, Israel's gov was claiming dead children in Gaza were "plastic dolls"That child was quickly identified as Omar al-Banna, slaughtered in an Israeli airstrike.
    That didn't stop Israel's gov from continuing to claim dead Gaza children were "fake" or "staged" or "dolls"!
    8\ After nothing substantial was found at al-Shifa, Israel insisted Hamas' long-promised headquarters, top leaders & the hostages were all in Khan Younis.
    The IDF invaded & occupied Khan Younis for over 120 days, turned into a wasteland, couldn't find a thing & left!
    9\ In Oct, Israel bombed Gaza & Lebanon with U.S.-supplied white phosphorus, then denied ever using that white phosphorus, despite clear videos showing them using white phosphorus.
    It took mainstream media 2 months to catch up & report it was indeed another Israeli lie!
    10\ In Jan, Israel destroyed an entire graveyard in Khan Younis, mutilated & desecrated bodies of the dead, some of whom were flattened by tanks or hacked into piecesIsrael claimed there was a Hamas tunnel underneath, but showed ZERO evidence for it that even CNN called it out!
    This was the 16th cemetery destroyed by the IDF in Gaza!
    11\ In Nov, the *IDF spokesman* arranged an interview for an IDF officer who claimed Hamas hanged dead babies on laundry lines on Oct 7.The lie was so egregious but the journalist reported it b/c it was the IDF spokesman that arranged the interview.
    It was debunked along with other atrocity propaganda pushed by Israel's gov like the beheaded babies, disembowelled pregnant women, baby in an oven...
    12\ In Dec, Israel claimed those were Hamas elite "Nukhba" militants "surrendering" en masse with one of them handing over his weapon.
    Only problem is that he "handed over his weapon" 3 times! The video was staged & the man was identified as Munir Qeshta al-Masry, a small business owner of an aluminium workshop in Beit Lahia. NEVER a Hamas member.
    13\ In March, after bragging about bombing a "Hamas terrorist with an RPG" & being challenged on this lie, Israel quietly admitted those were 2 starved Gazan civilians one with a bike & the other with a bag of flour.
    14\ After months of Israeli insisting that Gaza's starvation was b/c of "Hamas stealing aid", the US special envoy for Middle East humanitarian issues admitted Israel NEVER provided a SINGLE evidence of Hamas stealing or diverting the UN aid in Gaza, including fuel.
    David Satterfield added that Israel is bombing & killing the policemen protecting UN aid convoys.
    15\ The flour massacre: Israel slaughtered over 100 starved Gazans awaiting aid trucks & wounded over 700 On Feb 29, then claimed they had nothing to do with these deaths & it was a stampede.
    CNN found the IDF used machine guns that fired 600 rounds per minute at the crowds!
    16\ UNRWA: In Jan, Israel claims 12 UNRWA workers took part in Oct 7 & that thousands of UNRWA staff are Hamas & PIJ members.Four months later, ZERO evidence is presented by Israel to support this.
    Israel killed over 170 UNRWA workers!
    17\ The IDF also went after the @PalestineRCS & claimed they took part in Oct 7.
    The video the IDF provided was quickly debunked & the paramedics appearing in it were shown to be part of Hamas' "military medical service"
    18\ In Jan, Israel assassinated Wael al-Dahdouh's eldest son & journalist Hamza in Rafah & claimed he was a PIJ militant filming IDF troops with a drone.Washington Post found that Israel lied again & Hamza only filmed a destroyed building & were unaware of any IDF troops in the area
    https://washingtonpost.com/world/202...zeera-footage/
    19\ The Washington Post recently found that Israel LIED about killing Hind (6) & her relatives in a car then bombing an ambulance that came to rescue the girl with Israel's prior approval.Israel said they were NOT even in that area at all & didn't kill anyone.
    "WashingtonPost investigation found that Israeli armored vehicles were present in the area... & that gunfire audible as Hind & her cousin Layan begged for help, as well as extensive damage caused to the ambulance, are consistent with Israeli weapons"
    20\ In Nov, the Israeli Prime Minister's Spokesperson uploads the bloopers of a video clip from Lebanon & claims it shows Palestinians "staging" their death & suffering.
    He quietly deleted it after getting busted.
    21\ Israel's gov officially claims a Gazan activist, Saleh Aljafarawi, was a "crisis actor" who "faked his injury".
    The problem was that those are two different people in two entirely different parts of the occupied Palestinian territories!
    22\ Israel's gov posts a deliberately & widely mistranslated video of a Gazan woman who was talking about finding her son that was killed by the IDF & identifying him from his belt. Instead, they claim she said Hamas was taking people as human shields & she prefers Israel!
    Unfortunately, the list of lies extends beyond this particular list.
    The Armenian Issue

  16. #2316
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    As far as we know, the attack was perpetrated by a non state armed group,not by Iran itself. I quote,

    ---
    Are you going to pretend not to know that Hezbollah is an Iranian proxy that acts on orders from Tehran? Come on.

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    No tactic other than stating the obvious. I do understand what you say fully. No question there. Your piggybacks just don't make sense.
    Oh I know you understand, you just pretend not to.
    Really? That's what you're going with? You said 12 hostages were inside the house because 2 others made it alive at the end of the day? Sigh... Then you say that Porat points at 12 hostages being in the house though she actually says "about 12 hostages" in the recording. You yourself started with 14 though. Which is it? At this point we're not arguing whether there were 12 or 14 hostages in the house. We're arguing about how random senseless arguments you're shooting to fill in the blanks.
    Because Porat said about 12, and I remembered that number from when I read about the incident months ago. The real number is 14, as confirmed by multiple sources, of whom 12 were killed. You initially said 13 hostages were killed at the house, a number that isn't correct according to any source, so I'm not sure why you're clinging to this.
    Porat points them out as being shot by the Israeli forces in the crossfire. Pardon me if I don't think it makes sense to argue over whether those were killed by the tank fire or bullets from the Israeli forces.
    They were killed after Porat left the house, if you paid any attention to what you're reading you'd have noticed this. Porat was speaking about the 5/6 people outside. Dagan, who is still inside the house at this point, is talking about an additional 2 killed inside, and says it's not clear who killed them.
    If it doesn't make sense to argue what killed them, then why are you? lol.
    Because it doesn't really make sense to understand it that way. What I said there doesn't get any more basic.
    It also doesn't make sense that you don't understand what 'synonym' or 'propagate' mean, but here we are.
    I don't really need an extreme level of proofing to satisfy your needs. What you're trying to bank at is a form of fallacy.
    I accept your surrender.
    Lack of communication of hostage presence would indeed be present in the communications. I'm merely illustrating that you're just making assumptions as if you're claiming facts.
    There was a lack of communication, period.
    Yes, I wouldn't really base an opinion on what raving people saw at a trance festival (based on what you claim about them)
    What did I claim about them?
    while have more faith in what someone experiences over 6 hours later corroborated by people not been to the festival at all. I also pointed out that we didn't know the extend of the involvement of the helicopter. If muddying the waters is all you're left with you need new arguments.
    You think the events at the festival lasted what, 3 minutes?
    Yes, we don't know the extent of the involvement of something that wasn't there. Much like how we don't know the extent of the involvement of Abraham Lincoln in the 2nd Punic war.

    Hareetz didn't point at a police report. It reported at a police source. The least you can do is be accurate about what you're denying.
    It reported to a supposed police source talking about a police report. It is a claim backed up by nothing.
    Nothing I argued can be construed to be justification of any atrocity. Arguing that something didn't happen doesn't make it
    Ah, you're just denying the atrocity instead, gotcha. In the face of overwhelming evidence, deny deny deny.
    I did reference multiple videos but focused on one. No need to provide you a forensic analysis of all of them. The trend in your take about the first one persists for the others too. The fact is that you do not know what they're shooting at in the first video you linked to which is the first one I referenced. There is no indication that they're shooting at the festival as there is no visible structure of any sorts in the direction they're shooting at. It would fit nicely with the video of Israeli soldiers firing from a similar location at a distant bank. We have similar misleading context for the others. The car not stopping to obey fighter's orders? The fighter in the middle of a firefight with someone firing back from a room that he threw the grenade to? You don't know. If these were Israeli soldiers in Gaza or West Bank responding with violence like Hamas fighters did against civilians that were either protecting themselves or trying to go by their own business you wouldn't making the arguments you make here.
    No one is firing from the bomb shelter he threw grenades into. A guy inside the bomb shelter was catching the grenades and throwing them back out, until he was killed. His name was Aner Shapira, and he was trying to save the lives of about 20 people who were inside. May his memory be a blessing.


    From here is also the well known video of a guy with his arm blown off being kidnapped. There were no weapons inside. The cowards were throwing grenades into a small compact space full of unarmed people.



    Ah yes, the car not stopping to allow themselves to be kidnapped by terrorists, surrounded by shot out cars. Clearly a legitimate target. Man, the lengths you go to.


    Not really. Posting the relevant bits of a conversation in sequential order is quite different from whatever confusion you tried to create.
    They're in the same order, who are you trying to fool here?

    It's partially a copy paste from an earlier post actually. One that you already responded to by calling it Holocaust denial level mental gymnastics. Now you are completely abandoning your claim that such videos exist and that the only thing stopping you from posting them was the ToS.
    The video does exist, though, it's just not from now and is instead from Mexico. Hence I retracted this claim.

    Still not what I'm talking about. You've tried deflecting it so much that you're way off the mark of what you're actually responding to.
    Then I've no idea what you're talking about at this point. Care to elaborate?

  17. #2317
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Well it is clear Israel is losing the information war. In the Western media a pattern has been established Israel is leveling buildings and hospitals and gratuitously slaughtering civilians in (feigned) pursuit of an imaginary enemy. One has to read between the lines to find anything about armed resistance. It is usually just hinted at with vague statements like "there has been fighting" or "during fighting". Ironically one has to look to dodgy pro-militant fanatic sources to get some idea of what that 'fighting' might be like. But just like other highly partisan sources, that's not going to be representative. If Israel can't or won't give publicity to its own "view from the ground" to counter this image, that's going to be a problem: "Trust us, we know what we're doing and we play by the rules" has stopped working for some time now.
    Last edited by Muizer; April 24, 2024 at 04:07 AM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    It is not the information war, it is the reality of the atrocity that Israel is committing that makes the actions of the other side (Hamas) pale.

    If even the most conventional media highlights the atrocities that Israel is committing, it is because this reality is impossible to ignore.

    Casualties of the Israel–Hamas war (wikipedia)

    As of 8 April 2024, over 34,000 people (33,091 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 95 journalists (90 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[11]

    The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip: over 33,091 have been killed, 70% of them are women and minors.[12] In December 2023, Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor estimated 90% of the casualties were civilians,[13][14] while the IDF put the civilian ratio at 66% of those killed.[15] The death toll comes from the Gaza Health Ministry and the total death toll in Gaza is presumed to be higher than reported,[16][17] with thousands remaining unaccounted for, including those trapped under rubble.[12][18]

    The October 7 attacks on Israel killed 1,139 people, including 764 civilians and 373 Israeli security personnel. A further 248 persons were taken hostage during the initial attack on Israel to the Gaza Strip.[2][19][20]

    A further 382 Palestinians (including 94 children[21]) have been killed in the West Bank by the Israel military and settlers.[22] Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria.[23]
    They say a picture is worth a thousand words but this paragraph should be overwhelming.
    Last edited by mishkin; April 24, 2024 at 04:11 AM.

  19. #2319
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    It is not the information war.
    There's always an information war.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #2320
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    As of 8 April 2024, over 34,000 people (33,091 Palestinian[1] and 1,410 Israeli[9]) have been reported as killed in the Israel–Hamas war, including 95 journalists (90 Palestinian, 2 Israeli and 3 Lebanese)[10] and over 224 humanitarian aid workers, including 179 employees of UNRWA.[11]

    The vast majority of casualties have been in the Gaza Strip: over 33,091 have been killed, 70% of them are women and minors.[12] In December 2023, Euro-Mediterranean Human Rights Monitor estimated 90% of the casualties were civilians,[13][14] while the IDF put the civilian ratio at 66% of those killed.[15] The death toll comes from the Gaza Health Ministry and the total death toll in Gaza is presumed to be higher than reported,[16][17] with thousands remaining unaccounted for, including those trapped under rubble.[12][18]

    The October 7 attacks on Israel killed 1,139 people, including 764 civilians and 373 Israeli security personnel. A further 248 persons were taken hostage during the initial attack on Israel to the Gaza Strip.[2][19][20]

    A further 382 Palestinians (including 94 children[21]) have been killed in the West Bank by the Israel military and settlers.[22] Casualties have also occurred in other parts of Israel, as well as in southern Lebanon, and Syria.[23]

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