Hamas attacks southern Israel

[nhytgbvfeco2]

There's like, a lot of scum in Israel.

Hell of a thing to say.

Hey, since you're here, can you also confirm those fascist, genocidal chants in the Israeli army?

The unit in question did indeed sing a song, and those are indeed the lyrics. They were either already reprimended for it, or will be once they're back in Israel.
As a side note, I don't think any significant number of civilian casualties was caused by ground forces in Gaza.

[mishkin]

Yes it is more difficult to kill "uninvolved civilians" with a rifle than with an air strike, without a doubt.

I hope that Israeli society is very concerned about this and the Israeli state responds with something more than reprimands. But I doubt it. The naturalness with which Israeli soldiers record themselves doing and saying "stupid things" is alarming.

[Ludicus]

In a recent meeting with the Foreign Ministers of the European Union, Katz, the Foreign Minister of Israel, benevolently declared that they no longer intend to expel Palestinians from Gaza. They have a better idea, he said: they want to deport them to an artificial "Devil's Island," to be built in the sea 4 or 5 kilometers off the coast of Gaza.

For those who do not know, Devil's Island was a sadly famous French penal colony. It was where Captain Dreyfus of the French army spent almost 5 years imprisoned for a crime he did not commit, accused of stealing secret documents from the army. Dreyfus was chosen as a scapegoat at a time when anti-Semitism was rampant in France. He was the ideal victim because he was Jewish, and the accusers were confident that no one would defend him. He was saved by the open letter written by Emile Zola, addressed to the President of the French Republic and published in the newspaper L'Aurore on January 13, 1898, the famous and immortal accusatory pamphlet "J'accuse!" It was a painful and difficult process, and many years passed before Dreyfus was rehabilitated. Zola was also persecuted for defending him. When Zola died in 1902, Dreyfus attended his funeral.

And now, this fascist Katz comes wanting to invent a new Devil's Island for two and a half million Palestinians. He came to mock the ministers of the European Union (there is no other way to put it), who have already expressed regret for the time they wasted meeting with this individual.

Artificial island off Gaza pitched by Israeli minister in EU
EU rebuffs Israeli minister for bringing up artificial island at ...

[Muizer]

Again, no one is sidestepping anything. No one argued that Hamas didn't want the war to be dragged into Gaza where they are better equipped to hurt the Israeli army. Not one person argued that Hamas wanted to avoid civilians in Gaza getting hurt at all costs. You really need to stop basing your arguments against things nobody argued. What makes it intellectually dishonest is that you use this principle only in favor of Israel.

No?

if Israel didn't turn Gaza into one big refugee camp and treat it like a Soviet gulag Hamas wouldn't be lashing out like it did on October 7.

I call this sidestepping. It falls into the "look at the wider context" argument. It's a rhetorical device to shift the blame for october 7th and the subsequent war back onto Israel. Well, it does not work, because for all that Israel has done, the strategy employed by Hamas is theirs and theirs alone. And in this war, there are a lot of consequences that follow purely from this and those consequences include open warfare in an urban environment, which under the best of circumstances comes with a baseline of large scale destruction and loss of life.

And no that does not absolve Israel of causing unnecessary death and destruction. It's just a reminder that even without that it would have been hell, and that is on Hamas' conscience, or would be if they had one.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

In a recent meeting with the Foreign Ministers of the European Union, Katz, the Foreign Minister of Israel, benevolently declared that they no longer intend to expel Palestinians from Gaza. They have a better idea, he said: they want to deport them to an artificial "Devil's Island," to be built in the sea 4 or 5 kilometers off the coast of Gaza.

For those who do not know, Devil's Island was a sadly famous French penal colony. It was where Captain Dreyfus of the French army spent almost 5 years imprisoned for a crime he did not commit, accused of stealing secret documents from the army. Dreyfus was chosen as a scapegoat at a time when anti-Semitism was rampant in France. He was the ideal victim because he was Jewish, and the accusers were confident that no one would defend him. He was saved by the open letter written by Emile Zola, addressed to the President of the French Republic and published in the newspaper L'Aurore on January 13, 1898, the famous and immortal accusatory pamphlet "J'accuse!" It was a painful and difficult process, and many years passed before Dreyfus was rehabilitated. Zola was also persecuted for defending him. When Zola died in 1902, Dreyfus attended his funeral.

And now, this fascist Katz comes wanting to invent a new Devil's Island for two and a half million Palestinians. He came to mock the ministers of the European Union (there is no other way to put it), who have already expressed regret for the time they wasted meeting with this individual.

Artificial island off Gaza pitched by Israeli minister in EU
EU rebuffs Israeli minister for bringing up artificial island at ...

Good grief Ludi, take a minute to read your own sources every now and then:
"Katz did not suggest the island could be used to house Gazans, nor did he link the initiative to the so-called two-state solution, the diplomatic source added."

[Ludicus]

Good grief Ludi, take a minute to read your own sources every now and then:
"Katz did not suggest the island could be used to house Gazans, nor did he link the initiative to the so-called two-state solution, the diplomatic source added."

I read it before you, and before I wrote my post.
Katz presented an old video (2017), in fact as an alternative to the two-state solution that would give the besieged Palestinians a “seaport and may be a hotel and an airport” (!!!). if it wasn't a ridiculous alternative to the two-state solution, Katz wouldn't even mention it.The idea is quite old, I think it was mentioned back in 2011. It's to say, "since we're nice, let's give them this fantastic handout".

Given that Gaza is uninhabitable and that the number of Palestinians who have died in a hundred days is equivalent in the United States to the population of Iowa, although Gaza will not disappear as a territory, its population is at risk of a brutal decline. I assume that when the time comes to build that island, the few who remain will have nothing but tents to sleep in.
A large percentage of the houses are destroyed and 80% of the population lives in shelters. More children have died in Gaza in the last 100 days than in all the conflicts in the world in the last five years.
This guy is mocking the Palestinians and all of us by showing a surreal video from 2017.

Humanitarian aid trucks are diverted to Nitzana in Israel and then back to Rafah. They are inspected three times, travel 150 kilometers, when it would be enough to travel 50. Israel does not allow solar panels, solar refrigerators, solar lanterns, toys, dolls, coloring books and oxygen tanks, which are basic life support, to enter Gaza, among many other things. And when a box is rejected for containing a prohibited item, the whole truck is rejected.
I'm not the one who says it, it's the Under-Secretary-General of the United Nations who was in Rafah a few days ago, Jorge Moreira da Silva, who says: "I don't even know what adjectives to use anymore, because I've used the whole dictionary of adjectives."

[Love Mountain]

Slave rebellions against their masters or colonial governments is not the same as forming a terrorist group that frequently targets civilians. Do try again though.

I'll remind you Love like POVG that the Palestinians situation is not unique.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rohingya_people

Rohingya have been facing very similar circumstances to the Palestinians. How many Rohingya terror groups are there?

Why is it so hard to understand that civilians aren't legitimate targets? Hamas can kill Israeli soldiers all they want. The problem begins when you target those who again have absolutely nothing to do with your oppression.

Try to read what you actually said. Reminder.

"This garble of words is nothing but you avoiding answering any of my post or anything I said really. Your last sentence is a giant excuse. The Palestinians are not the only people in the world or history for that matter to face oppression or discrimination. African-Americans faced hundreds of years of slavery and Jim Crow. They didn't resort to massacring innocent people. That's just one easy example."

So no, you weren't talking about "terrorism" and your follow on reply to POVG's comment is 100% correct.

"You are still avoiding my question. Was the PKK provoked to attack civilian targets because of the oppressive policies of the Turkish government?"

Yes. They 100% were provoked. Why do you think PKK attack Turkish civilians? Because they're inherently evil? No, because they are lashing out against their oppressors. Just like Hamas. Just like the Slaves.

The reality that you and so many IDF defenders here desperately avoid admitting, is that you're defending IDF and demonizing Hamas because you find Israel's government to be more sympathetic than Hamas due to a variety of factors. Yeah, I bet you like the fact that they are a Democracy, that they are more tolerant, that they are historically persecuted, and that they are ultimately aligned with United States and other countries you're all from.

This is precisely why you're willing to repeatedly skirt around the fact that Israel continues to occupy Palestinians. Something they've done since 1967, and a land they literally ethnically cleansed in 1948. The founding of Israel, something the vast majority of Jews celebrate around the world, is a horrible event in human history. I am not saying Israel should be wiped off the face of the Earth. However, the actions of Hamas, and the majority of Palestinians who sympathize with Hamas, is 100% predictable. Not just predictable, it is entirely understandable.

And no, y'all don't give a about civilian deaths, because on the face of it, the death toll from IDF's retaliation has been far larger than the terrorist attack perpetrated by Hamas. What you all are doing, is justifying a political solution you find preferable, regardless of how many "civilians" you were all pearl-clutching over on 10/7.

What you should be doing, is denouncing Israel's intervention, and demanding that United States organize an international response to stop the bloodshed to negotiate a long-term solution on the Palestine issue.

But no, you'll all just be sitting here pretending to be "seriously concerned" about every freedom bomb Israel drops on Gaza, quietly approving because "What else can we do?"

[Jozam]

Killing of Naheda and Samr Anton - Wikipedia

On 16 December 2023, two Palestinian Christians, Naheda Anton and her daughter Samr Anton, were shot and killed while walking inside the grounds of the Holy Family Church to go to the bathroom during the 2023 Israel–Hamas war.

The Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem said: “Nahida and her daughter Samar were shot and killed as they walked to the Sister’s Convent. One was killed as she tried to carry the other to safety. Seven more people were shot and wounded as they tried to protect others inside the church compound. No warning was given, no notification was provided. They were shot in cold blood inside the premises of the Parish, where there are no belligerents.”

A relative's account of the event:



If you're not condemning Israel's war in Gaza and calling for an immediate halt to the fighting you really have no grounds to talk about what Hamas did on October 7.

When you oppose murdering people from one ethnic or national group but support it against another, that's just called supporting murder. The only respectable belief is to oppose all murder.

[Mithradates]

the number of Palestinians who have died in a hundred days is equivalent in the United States to the population of Iowa

State of Iowa: 3,190,369
City of Iowa: 74,828

Speaking of numbers, correct me if I'm wrong, but everyone from the UN to the BBC uses the numbers provided by the Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry.
The same Hamas that claims no Israeli civilians were killed on October 7th.

Moussa Abu Marzouk told the BBC that "women, children and civilians were exempt" from Hamas's attacks.

His claims are in stark contrast to the wealth of evidence of Hamas men shooting unarmed adults and children.

Do you believe him too?

[mishkin]

We have already discussed this before, the figures that the Gaza Ministry of Health has offered in previous conflicts have been correct, there is no reason to think that at this time they are not, they are figures accepted by all the media and governments, and United Nations. But for you to show your disbelief at such high figures is fine, I guess. It's really amazing that they are killing so many people.

By the way, it was the Israeli authorities who made a mistake in counting bodies on October 7.

[Mithradates]

We have already discussed this before, the figures that the Gaza Ministry of Health has offered in previous conflicts have been correct, there is no reason to think that at this time they are not, they are figures accepted by all the media and governments, and United Nations. But for you to show your disbelief at such high figures is fine, I guess. It's really amazing that they are killing so many people.

This is different from the previous conflicts and I think there is a good reason to believe that they are lying this time, because, you know, this is their last time.

By the way, it was the Israeli authorities who made a mistake in counting bodies on October 7.

Yes, it took them a while to count the dead, on the other hand, somehow the Gaza Ministry of Health can come up with the correct numbers immediately.

[mishkin]

In reality, it took the Israeli authorities a long time to give an exact number of those killed on October 7 due to rather macabre circumstances. The health authorities in Gaza simply identify (there is a census in Gaza, like everywhere else) and count the bodies they find/people who die in the remaining hospitals, giving very rough estimates. If you have any other source to know the number of deaths in Gaza, please share it.

---------------------------------

Women and children are the main victims of the Israel-Hamas war, U.N. says

UNITED NATIONS — Women and children are the main victims in the Israel-Hamas war, with some 16,000 killed and an estimated two mothers losing their lives every hour since Hamas' surprise attack on Israel, the United Nations agency promoting gender equality said Friday.

As a result of the more than 100-day conflict, UN Women added, at least 3,000 women may have become widows and heads of households and at least 10,000 children may have lost their fathers.

In a report released Friday, the agency pointed to gender inequality and the burden on women fleeing the fighting with children and being displaced again and again. Of the territory's 2.3 million population, it said, 1.9 million are displaced and "close to one million are women and girls" seeking shelter and safety.

UN Women's executive director, Sima Bahous, said this is "a cruel inversion" of fighting during the 15 years before the Hamas attack on Oct. 7. Previously, she said, 67% of all civilians killed in Gaza and the West Bank were men and less then 14% were women.

"Previously, she said, 67% of all civilians killed in Gaza and the West Bank were men and less then 14% were women"

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I read it before you, and before I wrote my post.

Clearly not, because you made the false claim that the island would be for expelling Gazans to it.

Katz presented an old video (2017), in fact as an alternative to the two-state solution that would give the besieged Palestinians a “seaport and may be a hotel and an airport” (!!!). if it wasn't a ridiculous alternative to the two-state solution, Katz wouldn't even mention it.The idea is quite old, I think it was mentioned back in 2011. It's to say, "since we're nice, let's give them this fantastic handout".

He presented two infrastructure projects to improve the lives of Gazans. Why does this anger you?
You're calling him a fascist because he wants to build them a port?

Given that Gaza is uninhabitable and that the number of Palestinians who have died in a hundred days is equivalent in the United States to the population of Iowa,

What a strange claim to make. Iowa has a higher population than Gaza.

although Gaza will not disappear as a territory, its population is at risk of a brutal decline. I assume that when the time comes to build that island, the few who remain will have nothing but tents to sleep in.
A large percentage of the houses are destroyed and 80% of the population lives in shelters. More children have died in Gaza in the last 100 days than in all the conflicts in the world in the last five years.

It is indeed terrible what Hamas unleashed upon the population it was elected to govern.

This guy is mocking the Palestinians and all of us by showing a surreal video from 2017.

..by offering to build for them a port and an airport, and a connection to the WB? Like threatening a homeless person with a million dollar donation.

Humanitarian aid trucks are diverted to Nitzana in Israel and then back to Rafah. They are inspected three times, travel 150 kilometers, when it would be enough to travel 50. Israel does not allow solar panels, solar refrigerators, solar lanterns, toys, dolls, coloring books and oxygen tanks, which are basic life support, to enter Gaza, among many other things.

How many aid trucks were going into ISIS held territory daily, without any inspection? Genuine question.

And when a box is rejected for containing a prohibited item, the whole truck is rejected.

That's.. common practice everywhere?

[Vanoi]

No need for new citations. They've been provided enough in this thread; cutting water and food to Gaza, sniping random civilians on the streets, demolishing cemeteries and leveling entire city blocks out of many examples coupled with calls for genocide from Israeli authorities while Israeli soldiers cheering about all civilians being legitimate targets in Gaza. What we have in Gaza is a calculated killing of Palestinian civilians and civilian infrastructure to make the area uninhabitable. You can hide behind your human shields points all you want which is quite debatable but we know for a fact that Israel used Palestinians, even kids, as human shields repeatedly in their operations in West Bank in the past. Coincidentally, you have not been mentioning that.

Citations are needed for claims. If they are in this thread cite them. It's not my job to prove your claims for you. I have even cited the relevant international law on the matter.

And do you have a citation that Israel uses Palestinians as human shields or are you just talking out of your ass on this claim too?

[Mithradates]

In reality, it took the Israeli authorities a long time to give an exact number of those killed on October 7 due to rather macabre circumstances. The health authorities in Gaza simply identify (there is a census in Gaza, like everywhere else) and count the bodies they find/people who die in the remaining hospitals, giving very rough estimates. If you have any other source to know the number of deaths in Gaza, please share it.

I dont have any other source because there is no other source, and thats my point. The only source is Hamas.
You can chose to believe them but in reality we dont know how many Gazan died.

[mishkin]

The entire press, states and organizations (from Amnesty International to the United Nations) decide to believe them, not on faith, but because there are reasons to do so. You can decide to believe what you want, it has already been said here that the international press, the United Nations etc. are anti-Semitic. Thats ok.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Just like the entire press believed them about the Al-Shifa hospital.

[mishkin]

Do you have any problems with, for example, this news?

Israel shows alleged Hamas ‘armory’ under children’s hospital in Gaza. Local health officials dismiss the claims

Editor’s Note: CNN reported from Gaza under IDF escort at all times, but did not submit the material for this report to the IDF and retained editorial control over the final report.
Gaza CNN —

The Israeli military’s focus on hospitals in Gaza is growing more intense as its campaign to eliminate Hamas from the enclave enters a sixth week.

The IDF invited news media to visit a medical center for children on Monday, where a spokesperson alleged parts of the basement had been a Hamas “command and control center” and may have been used to hold hostages.

A CNN team embedded with the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) and was shown guns and explosives in one room located beneath Al-Rantisi children’s hospital on Monday, which IDF spokesperson Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari termed an “armory.”

He also pointed to a chair with a rope next to it and a piece of women’s clothing, which he said would be tested for DNA, and a makeshift toilet.

Israel has repeatedly claimed that Hamas locates its operational bases in tunnels under hospitals and other civilian infrastructure. The access provided by the IDF provided Monday was an effort to back up those assertions, which are denied by Hamas, as well as health officials and hospitals in Gaza.

Concerns are mounting that hospitals are now being targeted for military action. Searing images and accounts from civilians inside continue to emerge and as doctors warn they cannot evacuate their most vulnerable patients.

Speaking by phone to CNN on Tuesday, Mohammed Zarqout, who has responsibility for all of Gaza’s hospitals, said the basement at Al Rantisi had been used as a shelter for women and children – not to store Hamas weaponry and hold hostages – as well as being the location of the pharmacy and some of the hospital’s administrative offices before rainwater made it “impossible” to use.

Zarqout also told CNN that medical staff had been forced to leave the hospital by Israeli soldiers, and had been unable to take all the patients with them when they left.

Nobody blindly believes what Hamas says. Don't expect anyone to blindly believe what Israel says either.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

No, and I don't understand what argument you're trying to make here.

[mishkin]

Nobody blindly believes what Hamas says. Don't expect anyone to blindly believe what Israel says either.