Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Kyriakos]

Looks like the death toll will continue to multiply at this rate.

My problem with protests against the Israeli intervention is that they seem are gratuitous to me. With it comes declaring "Hamas shall remain in power". To say the one, but not the other is to stick one's head in the sand faced with hard questions. So a request for everyone who feels Israel should stop: Please declare that you are in favour of Hamas remaining in power in Gaza. Otherwise come up with an alternative that sees both Israel desist and Hamas being dismantled. I don't see one, but I'm anxious to hear. Nobody likes the alternatives. What I don't want to hear is answers that somehow deny what Hamas is and what it has done, or tries to marginalize or excuse their actions. None of that is credible. Want to condemn Israel? Stop dodging the Hamas issue.

The leadership of Hamas isn't in Gaza in the first place, so even if Israel could kill every member of it there, it wouldn't mean much (they will form again). Leadership is in Qatar and Turkey.
What is in Gaza, is millions of regular palestinians to continue killing.

[Muizer]

The leadership of Hamas isn't in Gaza in the first place, so even if Israel could kill every member of it there, it wouldn't mean much (they will form again). Leadership is in Qatar and Turkey.

I don't think Hamas can be eliminated in a literal sense. But primarily they need to be removed from power in Gaza.

What is in Gaza, is millions of regular palestinians to continue killing.

Though you wouldn't think it from rather tendentious reporting in western media the IDF is not fighting imaginary enemies. Hamas has not stopped waging war. The civilian casualties are high because the IDF (by its own admission) is minimizing the risk to its own personnel. Hence the aerial raids and extensive use of tanks and armoured vehicles. The alternative would be to send in the infantry to fight door to door, street to street. It is still doubtful that would reduce civilian casualties. It certainly would play to the strengths of Hamas and result in many more Israeli deaths. I'm not sure to what extent Israel is obliged to follow such a strategy of sacrificing their own because the enemy is deliberately not taking its responsibility to avoid civilian casualties.

Don't get me wrong. I really don't like what's happening out there. I also question whether it contributes to a long term solution. What I am arguing none of us would be able to ignore an attack on our country like happened to Israel on 7/10. It's not something of which one can say : 'in the grand scheme of things, the Palestinians are still the victims, so we'll let 7/10 slide". Yet that seems to be what a lot of people seem to be doing, whether they realise it or not. There's a lot of people who have always sided with the palestine cause (which is fair enough) who somehow convinced themselves to gloss over, forget or even excuse Hamas. Saying things like "That's what you get if you drive people to the brink". That is simply false. You might get terrorists or freedom fighters. That's a far cry from a regime that thinks it is a great idea to murder some random citizens and rejoice at their own people getting martyred as a result. I don't recall any of that happening under the Nazi's, for instance. It's that difference that matters here. It can't be glossed over or excused in any way. This is as close as you can get to pure evil. Far worse than 9/11 in that sense.

[Kyriakos]

What are you talking about with "cannot ignore". 1400 people died in Israel. We are already near 10 times that killed in Palestine. By your logic, the palestinians should now seek to kill 140.000 israelis since, you know, no one can ignore etc.

[Genava]

What are you talking about with "cannot ignore". 1400 people died in Israel. We are already near 10 times that killed in Palestine. By your logic, the palestinians should now seek to kill 140.000 israelis since, you know, no one can ignore etc.

Hamas has targeted civilians on purpose. They killed innocents and unharmed people on purpose. It was the plan, it was premeditated.

There is no suggestion that Israel is killing innocent people on purpose. It is very difficult to distinguish civilians from Hamas fighters, very difficult to distinguish civilian infrastructure from Hamas infrastructure. I have no doubt that many innocent people have been killed by Israel. But I don't think it was something premeditated. There are soldiers and officers who commit war crimes but I don't have the impression that the entire chain of command wants to massacre civilians. While for Hamas this is the case, the entire institution accepts the idea of ​​killing Israeli civilians.

Finally, Israel above all wants recognition of its state and peace. But Israel would do anything to preserve the nation, even to wage war. While Hamas wants Israel to no longer exist. Arab nationalists and jihadist movements do not want autonomy for Jews in the Middle East. Morally their position is more difficult to defend or understand than that of Israel.

[Kyriakos]

Hamas has targeted civilians on purpose. They killed innocents and unharmed people on purpose. It was the plan, it was premeditated.

There is no suggestion that Israel is killing innocent people on purpose. It is very difficult to distinguish civilians from Hamas fighters, very difficult to distinguish civilian infrastructure from Hamas infrastructure. I have no doubt that many innocent people have been killed by Israel. But I don't think it was something premeditated. There are soldiers and officers who commit war crimes but I don't have the impression that the entire chain of command wants to massacre civilians. While for Hamas this is the case, the entire institution accepts the idea of ​​killing Israeli civilians.

Finally, Israel above all wants recognition of its state and peace. But Israel would do anything to preserve the nation, even to wage war. While Hamas wants Israel to no longer exist. Arab nationalists and jihadist movements do not want autonomy for Jews in the Middle East. Morally their position is more difficult to defend or understand than that of Israel.

I suppose you don't mind that Israel itself publicly stated it killed tens of people in that refugee camp just because it had the chance to kill... 1 Hamas official.
If you feel like supporting this murderous thug state, it's up to you. Hamas is a jihadist trash-terror group, and still the number of people it killed is literally an order of magnitude smaller than Israel's, so support it.

[Genava]

There are +50 000 fighters from Hamas, obviously the death count would be higher anyway...
Furthermore Hamas had a huge support from the population recently: https://apnews.com/article/hamas-mid...819c34da08fd87

Gaza is the new Dresden. We can accept it, I think.

[Kyriakos]

Dresden was part of an actual country, which country had sunk the entire world into a massive war with tens of millions of dead - including genocides and mass executions.
To compare it to Gaza is, sorry to say, ridiculous.

[Genava]

Dresden was part of an actual country, which country had sunk the entire world into a massive war with tens of millions of dead - including genocides and mass executions.
To compare it to Gaza is, sorry to say, ridiculous.

Still, Dresden was not really a strategic target and the allies bombed mostly civilians.

But if we want to play blame on civilians for crimes committed by a system to which they belong, I can also mention that Palestinians belong to a movement/ideology that has oppressed Jews for centuries, including through massacres.

If the Arab nationalists did not want an agreement in 1947, it was because the idea of autonomy for the Jews drove them crazy. No one identified themselves as Palestinian and no one wanted Palestine except Westerners at this time. Arab nationalists wanted the region to be part of others, such as Jordan or Greater Syria. In the end they are just Nazis who have never had success.

[Infidel144]

At Al-Azhar University, the crimes of the Jews are laid out:
"Sheikh Ibrahim Rida, an Islamic scholar at Egypt's renowned Al-Azhar University, said on a November 6, 2023 show on Sada Al-Balad TV (Egypt) that the Jews are quarrelsome people who killed many prophets and spread corruption on earth. He said that no one should find it strange that they are annihilating children, homes, and schools.

Interviewer: "How did the Jews and the Israelites conduct themselves with Allah and with the Prophet Muhammad?"

Sheikh Ibrahim Rida: "They are quarrelsome people. First of all, they killed the prophets."

Interviewer: "Are you basing this on the Al-Baqarah chapter in the Quran, or on..."

Rida: "The Quran in its entirety tells us that the quarrelsome people among the Israelites are the slayers of the prophets, I am sad to say. [The Quran says:] 'They slayed prophets unjustly.' They spread corruption upon the land.
[...]
"According to Ibn Kathir, there were over 24,000 prophets and messengers. Most of them were slayed by the Jews.
[...]
"The [Israelis] are a bunch of organized gangs, which have nothing to do with true Judaism.
[...]
"Biden was talking in religious terms, and so was Bush before him. They are saying that [Israel] is the homeland that was established for them. But how was it established? It was established by stealing land, occupation, slaughter, as well as slaughtering children in cold blood, which has always been a Zionist habit. These people slayed prophets, so you should not find it strange when you see them annihilating children, factories, homes, and schools with everyone inside them."

https://www.memri.org/tv/azhar-unive...phets-children

Decolonization supporter in Montreal calls for mass decolonization of enemies of Gaza. Jews take this personally, despite not being mentioned:

"A controversial Montreal imam's speech at a pro-Palestinian demonstration last month has sparked accusations of hate speech and drawn condemnation from politicians and Jewish advocacy groups.
In a speech to protesters on Oct. 28, Adil Charkaoui, speaking Arabic, denounced "Zionist aggressors" and called on Allah to "kill the enemies of the people of Gaza and to spare none of them."
A video of the speech circulated on social media. It has been the subject of media reports, drawing broad condemnation from Jewish advocacy groups and politicians, including Premier François Legault."

"In a response on his Facebook page on Wednesday, Charkaoui accused the premier of defaming him.
His prayer did not mention Jews, nor did it incite violence, he said."
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montr...eact-1.7022426

13:25 But as for those who break Allah’s contract after it has been agreed and sever what Allah has commanded to be joined,
and cause corruption in the earth, the curse will be upon them. They will have the Evil Abode.

[mishkin]

Still, Dresden was not really a strategic target and the allies bombed mostly civilians.

But if we want to play blame on civilians for crimes committed by a system to which they belong, I can also mention that Palestinians belong to a movement/ideology that has oppressed Jews for centuries, including through massacres

I am not sure if that is exactly what you are saying but others have mentioned Dresden before as "the legitimate bombing of civilians if they are part of an atrocious regime." Even if all Palestinian civilians in Gaza (a huge population of children included) supported Hamas, that would not justify their deaths. As Kyriakos has said before (not that I usually agree with what he says here) one hundred civilian deaths are not worth the death of a Hamas terrorist, nor the destruction of an arsenal, etc. I think that if this "mathematics" were posed to the Israeli population, they would agree. Unless they considered every individual in northern gaza to be a terrorist. (Back in Dresden, it was an atrocious crime, those people did not deserve that and I hope that those responsible in the US army paid for their barbarity).

I'm not an expert on war, but I think there must be more precise/less brutal methods to eliminate militiamen in a devastated territory. We have all seen images of how minimally capable armies can eliminate an enemy position with astonishing precision. Right now the Israeli army could be playing whak a mole (where the mole is the Hamas militiaman) from their consoles.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hamas is a jihadist trash-terror group, and still the number of people it killed is literally an order of magnitude smaller than Israel's, so support it.

What an absolutely disgusting comment, easily the most abhorrent thing I've read on this forum. Support Hamas?!? Seriously?? Do you also support Al-Qaeda because 9/11 killed fewer americans than the US's response? If a guy stabs you in the chest and you shoot him in response, was he in the right because your response wasn't proportional? What kind of third grade logic is this? Unbelievable. Shameful.

[mishkin]

I'm not sure what Kyriakos means, but probably he doesn't mean that. I think he meant (again. he said something similar in a previous post) something like "Israel/Israelis admire/is jealous of Hamas' capacity for brutality."

Three top leaders of Hamas alone have a staggering fortune of $11 billion, according to a report by The New York Times. Ismail Haniyeh, Moussa Abu Marzuk and Khaleed Mashal have been maintaining their luxury lifestyle in Qatar, a relatively small yet powerful emirate in the Middle-East, which provided a save haven for them. Notably, the country also has a significant presence of American military.

@Mossad. Why haven't these people been found dead in some brothel in Qatar or Turkey under strange circumstances? Are we scrupulous now?

[Muizer]

What are you talking about with "cannot ignore". 1400 people died in Israel. We are already near 10 times that killed in Palestine. By your logic, the palestinians should now seek to kill 140.000 israelis since, you know, no one can ignore etc.

My point is actually precisely that it is not a numbers game. The thing that can't be ignored is the 'strategy' adopted by Hamas. No party with such a strategy can ever be part of any resolution except the destruction of Israel. Part of the reason is exactly that it is prepared to do comparatively little, one might say purely symbolic, damage to the enemy and staking the lives of the population it governs and it is responsible for on it.

I cannot stress that latter part enough. There are two options here. Either we accept Hamas should remain in control in Gaza or we don't. And if we don't then exactly who is going to remove them if not Israel? The local population have either not wanted to, or have been incapable of it.

I'm sorry if it comes as a shock, but it is true for each and every one of us that if our countries were in such a position, it would leave us at the mercy of outsiders who may not have our interest at heart when the get attacked by our government.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I'm not sure what Kyriakos means, but probably he doesn't mean that. I think he meant (again. he said something similar in a previous post) something like "Israel/Israelis admire/is jealous of Hamas' capacity for brutality."

I hope that's what he meant, though the implication of that is also abhorrent.

[PointOfViewGun]

Meanwhile, Israeli minister says that they're rolling out Gaza Nakba 2023:

[mishkin]

shrugs when asked if they will allow the displaced Gazans to return? Is it possible that he ignores the meaning of the term Nakba (like me five minutes ago)? How can he shrug his shoulders with that coldness?

The Nakba (Arabic: النكبة, romanized: an-Nakbah, lit. 'the catastrophe') was the violent displacement and dispossession of Palestinians, and the destruction of their society, culture, identity, political rights, and national aspirations.[1] The term is used to describe both the events of 1948, as well as the ongoing occupation of the Palestinian territories (the West Bank and the Gaza Strip) and persecution and displacement of Palestinians throughout the region.[2][3][4][5][6]

The foundational events of the Nakba took place during and shortly after the 1948 Palestine war, including 78% of Mandatory Palestine being declared as Israel, the expulsion and flight of 700,000 Palestinians, the related depopulation and destruction of over 500 Palestinian villages by Zionist militias and later the Israeli army[7] and subsequent geographical erasure, the denial of the Palestinian right of return, the creation of permanent Palestinian refugees, and the "shattering of Palestinian society".[8][9][10][11]

The Nakba is described by some scholars including Ilan Pappe as ethnic cleansing,[12] but disputed among others like Benny Morris.[13] The Palestinian national narrative views the Nakba as a collective trauma that defines their national identity and political aspirations, which the Israeli national narrative rejects and views it as a war of independence that established Jewish aspirations for statehood and sovereignty.[14][15][16] The Palestinians mark 15 May as Nakba Day, the day after Israeli independence day.[17][18]

What an interesting read, the Nakba, the 1948 war and the expulsion (pre and post war) of the Palestinians.

[Kyriakos]

What an absolutely disgusting comment, easily the most abhorrent thing I've read on this forum. Support Hamas?!? Seriously?? Do you also support Al-Qaeda because 9/11 killed fewer americans than the US's response? If a guy stabs you in the chest and you shoot him in response, was he in the right because your response wasn't proportional? What kind of third grade logic is this? Unbelievable. Shameful.

Wow. Support it= support Israel; Israel=it. Maybe if you had kept the previous statement in your mind, you wouldn't have been confused by the sentence structure
As if I would be supporting Hamas or urging others to, dream on; the point was that Israel manages to be even worse than something hideous.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Wow. Support it= support Israel; Israel=it. Maybe if you had kept the previous statement in your mind, you wouldn't have been confused by the sentence structure

You referred to Hamas as "it" in literally the same sentence.

As if I would be supporting Hamas or urging others to, dream on; the point was that Israel manages to be even worse than something hideous.

If you think Israel is doing something worse, you've clearly not seen footage from 7/10, where for example Hamas terrorists were using a rake to behead a still living foreign worker.

[Kyriakos]

You live there, so I am taking that into account and don't mean to antagonize you.
That said, while more brutally and personally killing is viler, this gets lost when the other side kills (already) 10 times more. If a serial killer does wildly disgusting stuff to his victims, while another just uses a sniping rifle, and the second has killed 10 times more, the second is an even bigger monster.

[Infidel144]

'Al-Qassam Our Pride': Abu Obaida's Huge Portrait In Istanbul Wall Goes Viral
A banner portrait of Hamas' Al-Qassam Brigades' spokesperson Abu Obaida was installed in Turkish city of Istanbul, pictures and video that have gone viral on social media show. The purported images and visuals are from Istanbul with a message of praise for Al-Qassam Brigades that is currently fighting Israel in Gaza strip.

https://www.hindustantimes.com/video...629794793.html

How long will it be before the great sultan-caliph rescues Hamas, the pride of the Turks, by delivering the Ottoman Slap to the jooz knock on Israel's door...