Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Hobbes]

I don't know why the Met Police would care about a rally in Athens.

[Infidel144]

I don't know why the Met Police would care about a rally in Athens.

Athens? I was referring to Trafalgar square. I do think I noted that in my post.

===
Meanwhile :
"Rioters storm airport in Russia’s Dagestan in hunt for Jews aboard flight from Israel"
https://www.timesofisrael.com/rioter...t-from-israel/

[sumskilz]

From the interview with Butler that I quoted earlier:

Judith Butler said, “Understanding Hamas and Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive… that are part of the global left is extremely important.”

[mishkin]

using twitter as a source should be banned. if someone wants to seriously debate that comment:

In 2006, during a UC Berkeley event, an audience member posed a question to Judith Butler regarding whether Hamas and Hezbollah posed a threat to Israel’s existence. In response, she stated the following:

“Yes, understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important. That does not stop us from being critical of certain dimensions of both movements. It doesn’t stop those of us who are interested in non-violent politics from raising the question of whether there are other options besides violence. So again, a critical, important engagement. I mean, I certainly think it should be entered into the conversation on the Left. I similarly think boycotts and divestment procedures are, again, an essential component of any resistance movement.”

Hamas in 2006:
Hamas, intent on displaying its power through a plebiscite rather than by violence, announcing that it would refrain from attacks on Israel if Israel were to desist from its offensive against Palestinian towns and villages.[184] Its election manifesto dropped the Islamic agenda, spoke of sovereignty for the Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem (an implicit endorsement of the two-state solution), while conceding nothing about its claims to all of Palestine. It mentioned "armed resistance" twice and affirmed in article 3.6 that it was a right to resist the "terrorism of occupation".[179] A Palestinian Christian figured on its candidate list.[185]

Do you condemn Hamas, all its members and all its supporters?

Condemn people? to eternal fire?

Comfortably from my home hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, I believe that the murder of any civilian is wrong. If I were in Gaza watching neighbors and members of my family die, suffer hunger and cold and taken to hospitals that no longer have resources, I would most likely be looking for some AK47 with ammunition among the rubble and some, any Israeli to shoot at. If miraculously after having lived forty years in gaza I had the information I have now, I were the person I am now, if I came across any Hamas member I would probably shoot them too.

Do you "condemn" all acts of violence committed by Israel against civilians?

[sumskilz]

using twitter as a source should be banned. if someone wants to seriously debate that comment:

In 2006, during a UC Berkeley event, an audience member posed a question to Judith Butler regarding whether Hamas and Hezbollah posed a threat to Israel’s existence. In response, she stated the following:

“Yes, understanding Hamas, Hezbollah as social movements that are progressive, that are on the Left, that are part of a global Left, is extremely important. That does not stop us from being critical of certain dimensions of both movements. It doesn’t stop those of us who are interested in non-violent politics from raising the question of whether there are other options besides violence. So again, a critical, important engagement. I mean, I certainly think it should be entered into the conversation on the Left. I similarly think boycotts and divestment procedures are, again, an essential component of any resistance movement.”

Hamas in 2006:
Hamas, intent on displaying its power through a plebiscite rather than by violence, announcing that it would refrain from attacks on Israel if Israel were to desist from its offensive against Palestinian towns and villages.[184] Its election manifesto dropped the Islamic agenda, spoke of sovereignty for the Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem (an implicit endorsement of the two-state solution), while conceding nothing about its claims to all of Palestine. It mentioned "armed resistance" twice and affirmed in article 3.6 that it was a right to resist the "terrorism of occupation".[179] A Palestinian Christian figured on its candidate list.[185]

The context makes her no less of a naïve fool than Chomsky was when he argued that the Israeli-Palestinian conflict could be resolved based on the model of Lebanon or Yugoslavia, prior to the brutal civil wars that happened in each. The Hamas Covenant was published in 1988. Hamas had been carrying out terror bombings against Israeli civilians for several years straight just prior to her comments. Their Islamist positions on social issues and their genocidal antisemitism were already well-known.

[mishkin]

In 2006 Hamas was talking about peace and putting aside its religious agenda.

Again, it is one thing to accuse someone of being naive and another to make it appear that they are right now supporting the terrorist group that some weeks ago just killed hundreds of civilians, when even in those statements she was not supporting Hamas, she was making quite abstract statements. Does anyone know her opinion about Hamas now?

speaking of religious fanaticism and genocide:

Netanyahu just referred to Amalek from the Bible in his speech saying: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible"

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

any comments? Is this progressive and secular Israel?

[sumskilz]

Again, it is one thing to accuse someone of being naive and another to make it appear that they are right now supporting the terrorist group that some weeks ago just killed hundreds of civilians, when even in those statements she was not supporting Hamas, she was making quite abstract statements. Does anyone know her opinion about Hamas now?

She was supporting (or at least characterizing as allies) a terrorist group that had just killed hundreds of civilians, unless you think there should be an extremely short statute of limitations on arbitrarily murdering children. And while it is quite clear that some people who call themselves progressives are ethnocentric genocide supporting anti-Semites, her attribution of the label to Hamas and Hezbollah is outright moronic, to such a degree that I find it absurd that anyone would take her seriously on the topic.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hamas, intent on displaying its power through a plebiscite rather than by violence, announcing that it would refrain from attacks on Israel if Israel were to desist from its offensive against Palestinian towns and villages.[184] Its election manifesto dropped the Islamic agenda, spoke of sovereignty for the Palestinian territories, including Jerusalem (an implicit endorsement of the two-state solution), while conceding nothing about its claims to all of Palestine. It mentioned "armed resistance" twice and affirmed in article 3.6 that it was a right to resist the "terrorism of occupation".[179] A Palestinian Christian figured on its candidate list.[185]

Please explain how speaking of a sovereign palestine is an implicit endorsement of the two-state solution, when literally the next sentence says they don't endorse the two state solution.

Condemn people? to eternal fire?

Comfortably from my home hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, I believe that the murder of any civilian is wrong. If I were in Gaza watching neighbors and members of my family die, suffer hunger and cold and taken to hospitals that no longer have resources, I would most likely be looking for some AK47 with ammunition among the rubble and some, any Israeli to shoot at. If miraculously after having lived forty years in gaza I had the information I have now, I were the person I am now, if I came across any Hamas member I would probably shoot them too.

Do you "condemn" all acts of violence committed by Israel against civilians?

So you don't condemn Hamas?
Why do you find it so hard to condemn the Islamic State in the Gaza Strip?

[Infidel144]

She was supporting (or at least characterizing as allies) a terrorist group that had just killed hundreds of civilians

"killing civilians" and "terrorist group" are mischaracterizations. It is progressive decolonization activism by peaceful activists showing their spontaneous commitment to and desire for peace. Like the peace of Khaybar. And those civilians are now resting peacefully...

[sumskilz]

If this video is authentic, then a Merkava tank was spotted here:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Which supports the hypothesis I previously forwarded regarding Israel’s plan.

[mishkin]

So you don't condemn Hamas?

"Comfortably from my home hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, I believe that the murder of any civilian is wrong". Only in some weird world in which not being absolutely on the side of Israel is anti-semitism, saying that I am against all murder of civilians is not condemning the terrorist actions of Hamas.

Why do you find it so hard to condemn the Islamic State in the Gaza Strip?

"Do you "condemn" all acts of violence committed by Israel against civilians? " Why have you ignored such a simple question?

Btw, now you are trying to say that Hamas is part of ISIS? Could you give me more information about it?

She was supporting (or at least characterizing as allies)

She was encompassing Hamas in something as generic as "the left" and saying that their role and actions in the fight against the palestinian opressor should be debated. Blessed be the non-monolithic, not dogmatic left.

I'm going to continue posting this every time you talk about antisemitism, religious fanaticism and calls for genocide

Netanyahu just referred to Amalek from the Bible in his speech saying: "You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our Holy Bible"

1 Samuel 15:3 Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy[a] all that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.’”

[sumskilz]

She was encompassing Hamas in something as generic as "the left" and saying that their role and actions in the fight against the palestinian opressor should be debated. Blessed be the non-monolithic, not dogmatic left.

You missed the point from the beginning. Her takes are stupid, even in the feeble way you’ve tried to frame them. That she’s also (or at least has been) a Hamas apologist is just what you latched onto.

I'm going to continue posting this every time you talk about antisemitism, religious fanaticism and calls for genocide

Netanyahu isn’t religious. He’s a corrupt politician who will say just about anything. That was apparently a dog whistle (for real this time) to gain support with the far right – the people he needs to help him stay out of prison after this is all over. Fanatics might take it as tacit permission to commit war crimes, but Netanyahu has no direct control over the military. In any case, whataboutism doesn’t constitute a valid argument, if that was what that was supposed to be.

[Infidel144]

(also given to understand Erogan reiterated that the Turks have never ever done anything bad and are very very sad over being forcibly deprived of places like Aleppo, Mosul, Skopje, Gaza and Thessaloniki which are inseparable parts of the homeland)

Hmm... no wonder Turkey consider Thessaloniki part of the homeland, as dear to Turks as their own blood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrtFBX7IiAg

[mishkin]

You're going to have to show me some more concrete statements so I can consider her "a Hamas apologist". If recent and not from fifteen years ago, the better (for this conversation). And if she is so stupid, why did you quoted her?

In any case, whataboutism doesn’t constitute a valid argument, if that was what that was supposed to be.

Religious fanaticism is wrong whether practiced or used by one side or the other. If that sounds like whataboutism to you in a discussion where these two sides (Israel - Hamas) are at war, I don't know, man. Ok. Forbidden to talk about Israeli fanaticism, let's focus on the Palestinian fanatics who want to kill Jews in Israel and beyond.

[sumskilz]

And if she is so stupid, why did you quoted her?

I was responding to a post that was presenting her as offering some sort of wisdom on the issue. I thought that was obvious since I used the “reply” feature.

Although, I didn't say she is stupid. I think she’s more of a midwit who has a history of promoting nonsense.

[mishkin]

Well, of the interviews that have been mentioned in this discussion (I didn't know about her until she was mentioned here) I haven't read any nonsense. We can leave the topic here anyway

[nhytgbvfeco2]

"Comfortably from my home hundreds of thousands of kilometers away, I believe that the murder of any civilian is wrong". Only in some weird world in which not being absolutely on the side of Israel is anti-semitism, saying that I am against all murder of civilians is not condemning the terrorist actions of Hamas.

And yet you seem to have a hard time saying it outright.

"Do you "condemn" all acts of violence committed by Israel against civilians? " Why have you ignored such a simple question?

I condemn any intentional harming of civilians by Israel/Israeli forces.
See how I didn't try to weasel my way out of it? Why don't you give it a try.

Btw, now you are trying to say that Hamas is part of ISIS? Could you give me more information about it?

They did put up some ISIS flags, but moreso I'm saying that their goals are pretty much identical, as are the means they use to achieve them.

[mishkin]

I condemn any intentional harming of civilians by Israel/Israeli forces and Hamas. I also condemn the thousands of deaths and suffering of innocent people accepted as collateral damage by Hamas and Israel.

They did put up some ISIS flags, but moreso I'm saying that their goals are pretty much identical, as are the means they use to achieve them.

You wanted it to look like Hamas was an ISIS faction in Gaza. This type of manipulation ("a regular joe killed the president rabin, it was nothing political") is never leading you to a successful outcome.

[irontaino]

Why is it such a foreign concept that one can condemn Hamas' wholesale slaughter of civilians while also condemning Israel's?

[Mithradates]

You wanted it to look like Hamas was an ISIS faction in Gaza. This type of manipulation ("a regular joe killed the president rabin, it was nothing political") is never leading you to a successful outcome.

He probably watched the video sumskilz linked earlier, the ISIS part is at the end.