Hamas attacks southern Israel

[mishkin]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini...th_(Palestine)




https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Health_Ministry



So you done now mishkin?

Very interesting, much apreciated. You are correct and for some strange reason the health ministry is from Fatah/PA but the health ministers are appointed by Hamas, Or something like that. I was wrong anyway. These are the figures they present (gaza health ministry) and the reality.



They are the worst scum of humanity, but the figures they present are very accurate.

The rest of the very interesting article. It is important to read everything.

Former Reuters regional bureau chief Luke Baker said that the Ministry's death tolls are no longer trustworthy and "any health official stepping out of line and not giving the death tolls that Hamas wants reported to journalists risks serious consequences."[6] Yet, other sources argue that Gaza's Health Ministry also includes officials from the secular Fatah party and independents.[7]

Italian Foreign Minister Antonio Tajani, without citing specific evidence, later accused the Ministry of spreading "propaganda",[5] while US President Joe Biden stated he had "no confidence" in the casualty numbers being reported.[8][9] When asked what evidence supported Biden's comments, the White House referred to subsequent comments made by National Security Council spokesperson John Kirby, who asserted that the death toll cannot be taken "at face value", and that the "Gaza Ministry of Health is just a front for Hamas."[10]

In response to these accusations, the Gaza Health Ministry released a full list of the people killed at the time since October 7, a 200-page document with 6,747 identified individuals listing their names, ages, and ID number as well as 281 unidentified victims. Commentators pointed out that Gaza Health Ministry's numbers have historically been considered reliable by the United Nations, the World Health Organization, Human Rights Watch, and the United States Department of State.[11][12][13] Omar Shakir, Israel and Palestine director at Human Rights Watch, said "the numbers coming out of the ministry are not beyond reason", and noted a grey area in differentiating combatants from civilians among the dead, as well as emphasized that immediately released figures may often be different from those ultimately based on recorded data.[14]

Palestinian political analyst Nour Odeh has asserted the process of issuing death certificates is not done by political figures, but by health professionals, insisting "this process enables families to deal with issues such as inheritance and custody of children whose parents have died."[10]

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I find it funny when people put Hamas and the Israeli army on the same level. Hamas is a terrorist organization, Israel is supposed to be a democratic state that acts respecting international law, human rights, etc. Related to the problem of the fight against terrorism, always, anywhere: they have no scruples, we do. Israel should know something about that after so many years, as all countries that have suffered terrorism know. They hide among the citizens. Did the IRA go to a field in the middle of the meadows to confront the British army? did ETA do it? (Juts a side note: the Basque country received immense tax advantages so their society did not become impoverished during the years of lead). It's hard, but you have to try not to become scum who don't give a ### about civilian victims.

[Muizer]

They hide among the citizens. Did the IRA go to a field in the middle of the meadows to confront the British army? did ETA do it?

Unlike the IRA and ETA, Hamas took up the role of government. Doing so comes with responsibility for the citizenry and a considerable degree of accountability. It is their decision to martyr the people they hide amongst rather than surrender. That responsibility does not suddenly come to lie fully with Israel because Hamas gets the 'terrorist' label.

[Nebaki]

Houthis just like taking pot shots. I highly doubt we'll see Houthis sending men over to fight with Hezbollah. They still have to win their own war first.

Houthis= Iran. Which war are they gonna win for whom Yemenis?

The Saudis shot down a missile headed for Israel. The Houthis attacking Israel may just backfire and cause the Saudis and Israelis to draw closer.

You should ask yourself first what would be more favourable for the Saudis - a Israel next to them or not - the current Events are anything but not drawing those two Parties closer.

[mishkin]

Unlike the IRA and ETA, Hamas took up the role of government. Doing so comes with responsibility for the citizenry and a considerable degree of accountability. It is their decision to martyr the people they hide amongst rather than surrender. That responsibility does not suddenly come to lie fully with Israel because Hamas gets the 'terrorist' label.

either you are a terrorist organization, a group that has left behind morality and respect for innocent civilains, or you are "a government" that can be expected to put the well-being of its governed/fellow citizens above all else.

Both Hamas and Israel have responsibility in this conflict, the state of Israel is expected to respect the civilian population (it does not), we do not expect anything from Hamas. Or do you really expect some morality from them because they have sat in some offices?

Meanwhile, all the international press and humanitarian organizations continue to accept as valid the figures given by the Ministry of Health, almost 9,000 already. United Nations News: The number of people killed in Gaza is nearing the 9,000 mark amid mounting concerns over the aftermath of Israeli airstrikes on a densely-populated refugee camp near Gaza City, while a key hospital has stopped operations and UN humanitarians are unable to deliver aid to the north as the ground war intensifies. {...} The UN human rights office OHCHR noted on Wednesday that given the high number of civilian deaths and injuries in Gaza “and the scale of the destruction following Israeli airstrikes on Jabalia refugee camp, we have serious concerns that these are disproportionate attacks that could amount to war crimes."

I hope that so much discussion about sources does not trivialize the enormous number of deaths.

[Cyclops]

Hamas is using humans as shields. They are low dogs. They murder torture and rape Palestinians and Israelis to establish an Islamic Arab state. They are self proclaimed Islamists who oppose secularism, which includes democratic forms of government, and practice Jihad as war. They are a cartoonishly evil villain, and anyone who supports them opposes human rights, open government and fair and just society.

If no one else will exterminate them then the IDF have every right to try. The Palestinians are being raped and tortured by Hamas, either directly as when they took over Gaza or indirectly as when Hamas uses them as human shields against Israel.

Its disgusting Palestinians are suffering in this way, and until Hamas are all dead it will continue.

I support giving Palestinians freedom from Hamas. I support them having their own safe state, and I hope we all get more involved safeguarding them. lets keep the Saudis and Iran tf out of there as a start.

[Vanoi]

Houthis= Iran. Which war are they gonna win for whom Yemenis?

Houthis are a tribal group that exists in Yemen. Have you not noticed the Yemen Civil War that's been raging for years? Iran hasn't won anything for them. The Houthis still don't control all of Yemen to this day.

You should ask yourself first what would be more favourable for the Saudis - a Israel next to them or not - the current Events are anything but not drawing those two Parties closer.

Israel next to them. The Saudis and Israelis share common interests and have the same allies. If the Saudis wanted Israel gone they wouldn't be entertaining the idea of them officially recognizing Israel as a state.

[Roma_Victrix]

As an organization, Hamas taking over the Gaza Strip and killing all the rival Fatah party members there by 2007 would be like the North American equivalent of the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, or the Branch Davidians overthrowing the US government and installing a totalitarian, white nationalist, Christian fundamentalist dictatorship hellbent on killing Jews and other minority groups. They are simply a terrorist organization that has at times successfully masqueraded as a "government" for purposes of extremely temporary public relations branding and propaganda. Their chief focus is on building tunnels to undermine Israel and safeguard their own troops, taking a handful of hostages for trading back thousands of their own. They honestly do not care if all the other Gazans starve to death or that their grocers, schools, mosques, churches, or hospitals lose fuel or electricity. Maybe the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank might still be interested in a two-state solution, but that is not the goal of Hamas.

Per their own charter, Hamas wants a second Holocaust and a Levantine-based Islamic state (much like ISIS). It is a silly conversation based in a fantasyland to talk about them being "responsible" about anything. That's like expecting al-Qaeda to join the world community to work on climate change initiatives and public health policies. LOL.

That, of course, doesn't absolve Israel of its responsibilities to stick to the Oslo Accords and move towards Palestinian statehood in the West Bank. That'll never happen under the current government, though. Netanyahu's Likud Party made a deal with the devil to stay in power in the Knesset by courting the crazy far-right fundies like Itamar Ben-Gvir of the Otzma Yehudit Party. They would even sacrifice normalization of relations with all of their neighbors just to keep up the self-destructive desire to expand settlements (although the Saudis would probably still accept it so long as Iran and its proxies keep getting stronger and more foreboding).

[Muizer]

They are simply a terrorist organization that has at times successfully masqueraded as a "government" for purposes of extremely temporary public relations branding and propaganda. ..... It is a silly conversation based in a fantasyland to talk about them being "responsible" about anything.

The point I was trying to make is not that we should expect Hamas to care for the people it governs, but that does not mean they do not have that responsibility, as the only authority in Gaza.

Lately in the news (and here as well) one gets the impression that a dichotomy is created between "the innocent people of Gaza" and "The terrorist group Hamas who uses them as human shields". But that equation is not complete, because Hamas is not just a terrorist organization, it is the government in Gaza. It does not matter what their ideas of governing are. They are in charge. Nobody else speaks for and acts on behalf of the Gazans. Sad as it may be, every citizen of every country can expect to bear the consequences of the actions of their government, whether that government is a democracy or a dictatorship. The Gazans cannot disown Hamas now anymore than any American (regardless of what they voted) can disown the Biden administration and say 'nothing to do with me'.

[mishkin]

I support giving Palestinians freedom from Hamas. I support them having their own safe state, and I hope we all get more involved safeguarding them.

The problem is that Israel, in the process of eliminating Hamas, is eliminating and displacing the Palestinian population / If they continue like this in Gaza there will soon be no Palestinians to free.

[conon394]

The Gazans cannot disown Hamas now anymore than any American (regardless of what they voted) can disown the Biden administration and say 'nothing to do with me'.

Better comparison might be we are stuck with owning George Bushy Jr's Iraq war and subsequent mismanagement no matter how we voted.

[Ludicus]

It's worth reading the article in TIME that was published a few days ago. Hamas Is Not ISIS. Here's Why That Matters

...comparisons between Hamas and ISIS abound in part because they can be politically useful. Insisting that Hamas is ISIS enables Israeli leaders to muffle criticism of the country’s treatment of Palestinians, including airstrikes in Gaza since Oct. 7 that have left at least 8,000 people dead, two-thirds of them women and children. The conflation could also help win over U.S. leaders and public opinion.
To combat security threats effectively, Israeli leaders must resist facile comparisons and reckon with the fact that, at the heart of Hamas’s appeal among many of its recruits, lies not religious extremism but anger, anguish, and hopelessness.

In fact, last year, Poll finds dramatic rise in Palestinian support for Hamas
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It's easy to say that Hamas is using the population of Gaza as a shield when Palestinians have nowhere to take refuge in one of the most densely populated areas in the world. And even if that were the case, how many Palestinian lives are worth the death of a Hamas commander?

The pretext used by Israel to deny the entry of fuel into Gaza for hospital generators is the same that led to the death of 500,000 children under 5 in Iraq. Madeleine Albright acknowledged that it was worth it, stating, "I think that is a very hard choice, but the price, we think, the price is worth it."

On October 31, the UN website published a plea for a humanitarian ceasefire in Gaza, (a cease-fire, not a "pause") emphasizing the dire situation of more than 2 million Gazans, half of them children. Independent UN experts also called for a ceasefire, warning of a "grave risk of genocide" Gaza has become a graveyard for thousands of children

Biden and some European countries' call for a "humanitarian pause"-already rejected by Israel-let me say, a "pause" is as ineffective as the last meal for death row inmates. For 27 consecutive days, 2.3 million people in Gaza have been bombarded.
Think about this: more children have died in Gaza in the last month than in all world conflicts over three years!

Etty Hillesum, when she sat on that train to Auschwitz, threw her last postcard into the air, discovered by Dutch farmers, entitled: "We left the camp singing.”
It read: “This morning I cycled along the Station Quay enjoying the broad sweep of the sky at the edge of the city and breathing unrationed air. And everywhere signs barring Jews from the paths and the open country. But above the one narrow path still left to us stretches the sky, intact.”

Perhaps that's what thousands of Palestinian children do in their thoughts as they look at a glimpse of the sky untouched by the fog of bombs, above their 75-year-old prison. Anonymous children, whose names we will never know, whose faces we will never see, without even a funeral. Not even the Eiffel Tower or European parliaments will light up in their memory.
In addition to the colossal death toll, countless children suffer injuries, burns, amputations, and illnesses without adequate treatment.
Israel dismisses them as "collateral damage."
The ongoing massacre prompts questions about how long the US and part of Europe- burdened by collective guilt over Holocaust- will passively witness this tragedy?

[PointOfViewGun]

The point I was trying to make is not that we should expect Hamas to care for the people it governs, but that does not mean they do not have that responsibility, as the only authority in Gaza.

Lately in the news (and here as well) one gets the impression that a dichotomy is created between "the innocent people of Gaza" and "The terrorist group Hamas who uses them as human shields". But that equation is not complete, because Hamas is not just a terrorist organization, it is the government in Gaza. It does not matter what their ideas of governing are. They are in charge. Nobody else speaks for and acts on behalf of the Gazans. Sad as it may be, every citizen of every country can expect to bear the consequences of the actions of their government, whether that government is a democracy or a dictatorship. The Gazans cannot disown Hamas now anymore than any American (regardless of what they voted) can disown the Biden administration and say 'nothing to do with me'.

The latest election was in 2006. What you point can only be valid in states with proper and regular elections. Are you honestly suggesting that USA citizens and Gaza residents are in the same position? Even during 2006 at their most moderate stance Hamas didn't get the majority of votes overall in Palestine with Fatah winning 3 of the 5 districts in Gaza. Ever since, majority of Gaza residents opposed Hamas rule.

[conon394]

It's easy to say that Hamas is using the population of Gaza as a shield when Palestinians have nowhere to take refuge in one of the most densely populated areas in the world. And even if that were the case, how many Palestinian lives are worth the death of a Hamas commander?

Its also easy to say Hamas is the government of Gaza and they vastly prioritized attacking Israel than spending money on the people they are suppose to governing and produced an attack that was obviously going to draw exactly the response from Israel we are seeing.

[Ludicus]

You know, my dear Conon, some find it hard to call the guerrillas of the "Palestinian UPA" murderers, just as others find it hard to call members of the Israeli Defense Forces war criminals.
It's worth remembering that the US doubled funding for Holden Roberto the year after the horrific massacres he committed in northern Angola in February 1961.

Moral condemnation of the same crimes varies depending on which side you're on - an infallible way of getting nowhere decent.
For the living, especially those living and protected, far from the conflict, there are civilian deaths and innocent deaths that have justification; but for the dead, if they could speak, there would be no justification at all. Some argue with the moral or political superiority of their camp, of Good against Evil.

But for the dead, there is no good or bad side, there is only death; and those who are going to kill, no matter how much they want to delude themselves, have no moral superiority over those they kill. Lacking arguments to counter what should be morally evident, here where we live in the West, there are some intelligent people who attack the "anti-Western Westerners," who tend to sympathize with the enemies of our values and our moral superiority. As if that superiority, by itself, granted us immunity against evil and made us eternally innocent, by nature. Regarding the historical Palestinian conflict, for example, they ask if we prefer to live in the medieval and theocratic Palestinian societies or in the democratic society of Israel.

Even if we generously and forcibly assume that all Palestinians are fundamentalists and that Israel is an untouchable democratic society, the question and the crux of the problem are: if you lived in Palestine, which both sides claim as their land, would you prefer to live as an Israeli or as a Palestinian?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Even during 2006 at their most moderate stance Hamas didn't get the majority of votes overall in Palestine with Fatah winning 3 of the 5 districts in Gaza. Ever since, majority of Gaza residents opposed Hamas rule.

While it's true that they won 2 out of 5 proportional seats in Gaza, they also won 15 of the district seats there, compared to Fatah's 6. So in total, of the 29 seats in Gaza, Hamas won 17 to Fatah's 9.

[Muizer]

What you point can only be valid in states with proper and regular elections.

In principle, form of government is a nation's internal affair. In international diplomacy, governments act on behalf of their citizens regardless of what form that government takes. Other nations deal with whoever is in power. In other words, we can all expect to suffer the consequences for what our governments do on the international stage. And it is in reaction to that that citizens would be wise to make sure their government does not act against their wishes.

To take an extreme case, at the end of WWII, many german cities were bombed to bits, with enormous civilian casualties. The response evidently was not "They did not deserve that they were oppressed themselves" but rather "They should never have let Hitler do what he did".

[PointOfViewGun]

In principle, form of government is a nation's internal affair. In international diplomacy, governments act on behalf of their citizens regardless of what form that government takes. Other nations deal with whoever is in power. In other words, we can all expect to suffer the consequences for what our governments do on the international stage. And it is in reaction to that that citizens would be wise to make sure their government does not act against their wishes.

To take an extreme case, at the end of WWII, many german cities were bombed to bits, with enormous civilian casualties. The response evidently was not "They did not deserve that they were oppressed themselves" but rather "They should never have let Hitler do what he did".

There is a difference between acknowledging a number of consequences that effect the public due to what their rulers choose and arguing that the public deserves what's coming. What you describe is not a 21st century ideology. We have come a long way. In a way, you're implying a justification of collective punishment which is what we have international laws for.

[mishkin]

"They should never have let Hitler do what he did".

first time I hear this. and if anyone ever said it, it was a psychopath or some really traumatized/"gone" veteran

Edit: Are we discussing now whether the civilian population of Gaza deserves to be bombed becausesome of them voted for or sympathize with Hamas?

[Cyclops]

The problem is that Israel, in the process of eliminating Hamas, is eliminating and displacing the Palestinian population / If they continue like this in Gaza there will soon be no Palestinians to free.

Garbage mate. Israel has stolen land but has never espoused or carried out genocide. Hamas is 100% committed to destroying Israel, whatever the cost.

Hamas entire campaign based around committing atrocities to incite more atrocities.

We can't have peace until Hamas is 100% dead.

We can have peace with Israel without killing them all

[mishkin]

I talk about the civilian population of Gaza and you respond by talking exclusively about Hamas. It sounds like the idea of innocent Palestinian has already been erased from our minds.

Any idea what the Israeli plans are for Gaza in the future (aside from the four very crude points that the government gave)? Are they going to rebuild what they are destroying and give it back to the surviving expelled Gazans?