Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2781

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    I don't think either side should be taking any unilateral action. Both, however, are.
    Regarding sovereignty Israel's unilateral actions make Palestine's negligible. Israel expects everyone to recognize its sovereignty on borders itself even doesn't identify. Even Palestine recognizes Israel in general meanwhile Israel does everything in its power to strike down any attempt by Palestine to establish itself as a state under the 1967 borders.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Israel did not know it was coming. Some in the intelligence community knew Hamas was making such plans, but thought it was too ambitious and implausible. Intelligence has to constantly assess hundreds if not thousands of potential threats, and sometimes mistakes are made. Hamas has never done anything even remotely close to 7/10, so this was thought to be unrealistic. Stop spreading conspiracy theories.
    Israel did know it was coming. At least a year before the attack. Hamas didn't hide its preparations. Conducted drills on assaulting towns, Israeli tanks and border crossings out in the open. Throughout that time Israel did not cease bombing Gaza. They could easily target such drills by Hamas being done out in the open in some of the less residential areas of Gaza. They did not. This was not a random person calling the tip line claiming there will be an attack. They they didn't believe them does not make sense. It's also highly idiotic to claim that the intelligence community didn't take them seriously meanwhile arguing Hamas as an existential threat to Israel.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    As for hostages, IDF has been rescuing them, whenever it can.
    Also killing them either through airstrikes or refusal to reach a hostage deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Because his government failed to act, moved troops to the WB because of tensions it itself raised, and never took responsibility. Not because they deliberately allowed this to happen to further their evil plans.
    The same guy that has been asking people to keep on funding Hamas. Meanwhile he was asking funding related to UN regarding Gaza to be cut, he was asking Qataris to keep on sending cash to Hamas. He was investing on Hamas to create trouble and wanted it to be something major.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    This is the same Netanyahu that released 1000 terrorists to bring back 1 soldier. One of those terrorists was Yahya Sinwar.
    The issue is the terms. Netanyahu wants the war to be resumed after the deal is concluded, Hamas wants it to end so they can declare victory.
    That example doesn't help your case in any way. Release of Sinwar is similar to release of Yasin. OK to release important Hamas members but its not OK to cease bombing of Gaza back to stone age.
    The Armenian Issue

  2. #2782

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    This thread reminds me of the good ol' days when clueless Western European tankies were westsplaining russia to Eastern Europeans. It is rather nostalgic.

    No wait, they are still doing it.

    For some reason, The Evil Joos really suck at genocide, they've had almost a year to kill off all the Gazans, and they've managed less than 1%. At this rate, it is going to take the number of years equal to the age of Jerusalem to wipe out the "resistance".

    I love the newspeak, though.

  3. #2783

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Atreides View Post
    This thread reminds me of the good ol' days when clueless Western European tankies were westsplaining russia to Eastern Europeans. It is rather nostalgic.

    No wait, they are still doing it.

    For some reason, The Evil Joos really suck at genocide, they've had almost a year to kill off all the Gazans, and they've managed less than 1%. At this rate, it is going to take the number of years equal to the age of Jerusalem to wipe out the "resistance".

    I love the newspeak, though.
    Well, Israel just massacred 100 more at a school. They can't even identify the bodies. They destroyed most of Gaza, murdered thousands, pretty much all population in Gaza is a refugee now, and they keep killing more every day while creating the conditions for the death of thousands more due to the lack of food, medical aid, water, fuel, and other necessary items. Even if the war ends today, there will be almost nothing left for Gazans to return to.

  4. #2784

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Atreides View Post
    This thread reminds me of the good ol' days when clueless Western European tankies were westsplaining russia to Eastern Europeans. It is rather nostalgic.

    No wait, they are still doing it.

    For some reason, The Evil Joos really suck at genocide, they've had almost a year to kill off all the Gazans, and they've managed less than 1%. At this rate, it is going to take the number of years equal to the age of Jerusalem to wipe out the "resistance".

    I love the newspeak, though.
    You're not wrong, but there is some logic behind why some westerners support Hamas and Russia in the current conflicts along with the USSR in the past, including demands for cease-fires and giving them whatever they want.

    These westerners harbor a deep-seated anxiety about how these wars are playing out. They are concerned that if Hamas is destroyed, there will be a significant void in the leadership of jihadist efforts against Israel, undermining what these westerners see as their ideological struggle against the "oppressors". Similarly, the successful resistance of Ukraine against Russian aggression rattles them, as they fear that a Russian defeat might lead to the fragmentation of a major power opposed to Western influence, which they perceive as a direct threat to their own ideologies.

    These fears reveals a deeper, more existential crisis: the possibility that the Western principles of governance and economic systems utilized by Israel and Ukraine, which they have long ridiculed as weak and ineffective, may actually prove to be more successful and enduring than the Russian and Islamic ways they idealize. It forces them to confront the unsettling realization that their entire worldview—one that has dismissed Western successes as solely based on slavery and colonialism and lauded alternative systems as inherently superior—might be fundamentally flawed. This isn't merely about being wrong on specific issues; it's an existential confrontation with the possibility that their entire belief system has been wrong all along, akin to discovering that everyone they know is secretly a robot. This fundamental dissonance challenges their most deeply held convictions about the nature of reality.

  5. #2785

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    You're not wrong, but there is some logic behind why some westerners support Hamas and Russia in the current conflicts along with the USSR in the past, including demands for cease-fires and giving them whatever they want.

    These westerners harbor a deep-seated anxiety about how these wars are playing out. They are concerned that if Hamas is destroyed, there will be a significant void in the leadership of jihadist efforts against Israel, undermining what these westerners see as their ideological struggle against the "oppressors". Similarly, the successful resistance of Ukraine against Russian aggression rattles them, as they fear that a Russian defeat might lead to the fragmentation of a major power opposed to Western influence, which they perceive as a direct threat to their own ideologies.

    These fears reveals a deeper, more existential crisis: the possibility that the Western principles of governance and economic systems utilized by Israel and Ukraine, which they have long ridiculed as weak and ineffective, may actually prove to be more successful and enduring than the Russian and Islamic ways they idealize. It forces them to confront the unsettling realization that their entire worldview—one that has dismissed Western successes as solely based on slavery and colonialism and lauded alternative systems as inherently superior—might be fundamentally flawed. This isn't merely about being wrong on specific issues; it's an existential confrontation with the possibility that their entire belief system has been wrong all along, akin to discovering that everyone they know is secretly a robot. This fundamental dissonance challenges their most deeply held convictions about the nature of reality.
    In what universe is what you say remotely true?
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  6. #2786
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Regarding sovereignty Israel's unilateral actions make Palestine's negligible. Israel expects everyone to recognize its sovereignty on borders itself even doesn't identify.
    No, it doesn't. Lol.
    Even Palestine recognizes Israel in general meanwhile Israel does everything in its power to strike down any attempt by Palestine to establish itself as a state under the 1967 borders.
    Because the 1948 armistace line is not a border. By Arab insistance, ironically, the terms of the armistace clearly state that those are not borders. For palestinian statehood to be achieved, clear borders need to be outlined through negotiations. The green line is not a border.
    Israel did know it was coming. At least a year before the attack. Hamas didn't hide its preparations. Conducted drills on assaulting towns, Israeli tanks and border crossings out in the open.
    Lol, no. When you have thousands of indications of threats on a daily basis, you have to assess what's likely and what's implausible. If I tell you I'm going to crash an asteroid into your house, you would not take this threat seriously, because you wouldn't think this plausible. If one fine day I suddenly crash an asteroid into your house, I can't then claim "He knew it was coming, and let it happen. It's his fault, really."
    Throughout that time Israel did not cease bombing Gaza. They could easily target such drills by Hamas being done out in the open in some of the less residential areas of Gaza. They did not. This was not a random person calling the tip line claiming there will be an attack. They they didn't believe them does not make sense. It's also highly idiotic to claim that the intelligence community didn't take them seriously meanwhile arguing Hamas as an existential threat to Israel.
    Israel did not cease bombing Gaza..? Huh? Are you referring to the 2 day military operation in August of 2022 (so more than the year timeframe you gave) that was conducted against the Islamic Jihad (NOT Hamas)?
    Are you suggesting Israel should strike Hamas even at times of truce and ceasefire? Aren't you calling for a ceasefire right now? Giving some very contradicting arguments here, which isn't all too surprising frankly.
    It makes perfect sense when you consider previous attacks by Hamas. Nothing had even come remotely close. Hamas had never before managed to enter a population centre, had never breached the border fence by land (only via tunnels), previous attacks via tunnels had very limited success (few exceptions such as the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit in 2006 when 2 soldiers were killed), and had never sent more than about 13 terrorists at a time on attacks. Add to that the fact that Israel had just completed its new and improved border fence with its underground sensors and that Hamas hadn't joined the previous round of fighting in Gaza, there was every reason to consider such plans to be implausible, and beyond Hamas's capabilities.
    Hubris and negligence allowed Hamas to execute its plans, not some act of evil, sacrificing the people in order to.. uhhh.. damage Israel's economy and international standing for no gain?

    Also killing them either through airstrikes or refusal to reach a hostage deal.
    The insinuation that this is deliberate is sickening, frankly.
    Israel has proposed plenty of hostage deals, Hamas has refused them because it insists on a temporary ceasefire.

    The same guy that has been asking people to keep on funding Hamas. Meanwhile he was asking funding related to UN regarding Gaza to be cut, he was asking Qataris to keep on sending cash to Hamas. He was investing on Hamas to create trouble and wanted it to be something major.
    Qatari money was meant to prevent escalation. Obviously, no such funding should have been provided to them. This has nothing to do with the quote you've replied to, however.

    That example doesn't help your case in any way. Release of Sinwar is similar to release of Yasin. OK to release important Hamas members but its not OK to cease bombing of Gaza back to stone age.
    Their release is not at all okay. Releasing 1000 terrorists for 1 soldier is the sort of act that provides incentive to kidnap more, and likely directly led to 7/10. Yahya Sinwar will get whats coming to him, as did Haniyeh and Deif. Hamas will be eradicated, for the betterment of everyone.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusitanio View Post
    Well, Israel just massacred 100 more at a school. They can't even identify the bodies. They destroyed most of Gaza, murdered thousands, pretty much all population in Gaza is a refugee now, and they keep killing more every day while creating the conditions for the death of thousands more due to the lack of food, medical aid, water, fuel, and other necessary items. Even if the war ends today, there will be almost nothing left for Gazans to return to.
    And of course, all those killed are definitely civilians. Let's ignore that Israel published the names of some 30 terrorists confirmed to have been killed in said bombing.
    Even the UN found that there's no evidence that there's starvation.

  7. #2787

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    No, it doesn't. Lol.
    Because the 1948 armistace line is not a border. By Arab insistance, ironically, the terms of the armistace clearly state that those are not borders. For palestinian statehood to be achieved, clear borders need to be outlined through negotiations. The green line is not a border.
    Yet, the same ambiguity was not a concern for Israel achieving statehood.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Lol, no. When you have thousands of indications of threats on a daily basis, you have to assess what's likely and what's implausible. If I tell you I'm going to crash an asteroid into your house, you would not take this threat seriously, because you wouldn't think this plausible. If one fine day I suddenly crash an asteroid into your house, I can't then claim "He knew it was coming, and let it happen. It's his fault, really."
    If my analysts and intelligence officers write reports on you planning to crash an asteroid, how you're building equipment, recruiting manpower and conducting test runs to make that happen and I tell people to just ignore it, yeah, it would be my fault.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Israel did not cease bombing Gaza..? Huh? Are you referring to the 2 day military operation in August of 2022 (so more than the year timeframe you gave) that was conducted against the Islamic Jihad (NOT Hamas)?
    Are you suggesting Israel should strike Hamas even at times of truce and ceasefire? Aren't you calling for a ceasefire right now? Giving some very contradicting arguments here, which isn't all too surprising frankly.
    Are you saying Israel never conducted airstrikes on Gaza outside of that 2 day operation? You should first establish accurate premises and then accuse me of contradicting arguments. Strikes into Gaza was never something exclusive to major operations and ceasefires never stopped Israel from conducting airstrikes on Gaza before.

    January 2022: Israel hits Gaza with airstrikes
    April 2022: Israel strikes Gaza after rocket attack as Jerusalem tensions soar


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    It makes perfect sense when you consider previous attacks by Hamas. Nothing had even come remotely close. Hamas had never before managed to enter a population centre, had never breached the border fence by land (only via tunnels), previous attacks via tunnels had very limited success (few exceptions such as the kidnapping of Gilad Shalit in 2006 when 2 soldiers were killed), and had never sent more than about 13 terrorists at a time on attacks. Add to that the fact that Israel had just completed its new and improved border fence with its underground sensors and that Hamas hadn't joined the previous round of fighting in Gaza, there was every reason to consider such plans to be implausible, and beyond Hamas's capabilities.
    Hubris and negligence allowed Hamas to execute its plans, not some act of evil, sacrificing the people in order to.. uhhh.. damage Israel's economy and international standing for no gain?
    If nothing like October 7 happened before it was because the Israeli army prevented it from happening. There are cases of them attempting breaches though. You really need to stop making encompassing claims that you clearly do not check. That they have never attempted to breach the border in such a scale doesn't validate the idea that they could never do that. The irony remains that Israel presents Hamas as an existential threat but here you are trying to argue this nonsense. There was every sign of them preparing to do what they did on October 7.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    The insinuation that this is deliberate is sickening, frankly.
    Israel has proposed plenty of hostage deals, Hamas has refused them because it insists on a temporary ceasefire.
    A lot of sickening things happened since October 7 at the hands of Israeli military. Being accused of asking for a temporary ceasefire after having your entire region basically carpet bombed is not the worst thing to be accused of.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Qatari money was meant to prevent escalation. Obviously, no such funding should have been provided to them. This has nothing to do with the quote you've replied to, however.
    Then read it a few more times. It's quite straightforward. We even have Netanyahu himself saying that Israel should invest in Hamas to keep the Palestinian factions separate. The money was not for preventing escalation in any manner. If it was geared to prevent escalation it was to prevent it from against Hamas in Gaza so that Hamas could stay in power.


    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    Their release is not at all okay. Releasing 1000 terrorists for 1 soldier is the sort of act that provides incentive to kidnap more, and likely directly led to 7/10. Yahya Sinwar will get whats coming to him, as did Haniyeh and Deif. Hamas will be eradicated, for the betterment of everyone.
    What likely led to October 7's hostage campaign was the hundreds of if not thousands of Palestinian hostages, including women and children, kept in Israel. Haniyeh's assassination was Israel sabotaging any attempts at reaching a deal. He had no military value and known to be even unaware of the October 7 attack plans. It's suspicious that Israel suddenly chose to kill him after signs of political reconciliation between political bureaus of Hamas and PLO.
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  8. #2788
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    You're not wrong, but there is some logic behind why some westerners support Hamas and Russia in the current conflicts along with the USSR in the past, including demands for cease-fires and giving them whatever they want.

    These westerners harbor a deep-seated anxiety about how these wars are playing out. They are concerned that if Hamas is destroyed, there will be a significant void in the leadership of jihadist efforts against Israel, undermining what these westerners see as their ideological struggle against the "oppressors". Similarly, the successful resistance of Ukraine against Russian aggression rattles them, as they fear that a Russian defeat might lead to the fragmentation of a major power opposed to Western influence, which they perceive as a direct threat to their own ideologies.

    These fears reveals a deeper, more existential crisis: the possibility that the Western principles of governance and economic systems utilized by Israel and Ukraine, which they have long ridiculed as weak and ineffective, may actually prove to be more successful and enduring than the Russian and Islamic ways they idealize. It forces them to confront the unsettling realization that their entire worldview—one that has dismissed Western successes as solely based on slavery and colonialism and lauded alternative systems as inherently superior—might be fundamentally flawed. This isn't merely about being wrong on specific issues; it's an existential confrontation with the possibility that their entire belief system has been wrong all along, akin to discovering that everyone they know is secretly a robot. This fundamental dissonance challenges their most deeply held convictions about the nature of reality.
    Those Westerners, are they in the room with us right now?

  9. #2789
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Zionists have the right to be what they are, or whatever they want to be. That said, zionists, like all particularists, are not only on the wrong side of history; they are at war with human nature. And yet, Judaism advocates – if I’m not wrong- for the universalist,equal consideration and love of a supreme being for all humanity.
    ---
    Dehumanization is the very denial of the humanity of the victims and their cultures. This denial facilitates physical destruction. The victimizer sees the victim as subhuman, as repugnant, as something that infests the surroundings. This is what Omar Bartov is talking about. And much more. An article well worth your time, from which I've only transcribed the last part. Read about the correspondence exchanged between Bartov and Yitzhak Rabin.

    On 19 June 2024, I was scheduled to give a lecture at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev (BGU) in Be’er Sheva, Israel...” that's how the article begins.
    Le long read- As a former IDF soldier and historian of genocide, I was deeply disturbed by my recent visit to Israel - by Omar Bartov.

    (...)Knowing that I had previously warned of genocide, the students were especially keen to show me that they were humane, that they were not murderers. They had no doubt that the IDF was, in fact, the most moral army in the world. But they were also convinced that any damage done to the people and buildings in Gaza was totally justified, that it was all the fault of Hamas using them as human shields.
    They showed me photos on their phones to prove that they had behaved admirably toward children, denied that there was any hunger in Gaza, insisted that the systematic destruction of schools, universities, hospitals, public buildings, residences and infrastructure was necessary and justifiable. They viewed any criticism of Israeli policies by other countries and the United Nations as simply antisemitic.

    Unlike the majority of Israelis, these young people had seen the destruction of Gaza with their own eyes. It seemed to me that they had not only internalised a particular view that has become commonplace in Israel – namely, that the destruction of Gaza as such was a legitimate response to 7 October – but had also developed a way of thinking that I had observed many years ago when studying the conduct, worldview and self-perception of German army soldiers in the second world war. Having internalised certain views of the enemy – the Bolsheviks as Untermenschen; Hamas as human animals – and of the wider population as less than human and undeserving of rights, soldiers observing or perpetrating atrocities tend to ascribe them not to their own military, or to themselves, but to the enemy.

    Thousands of children were killed? It’s the enemy’s fault. Our own children were killed? That is certainly the enemy’s fault. If Hamas carry out a massacre in a kibbutz, they are Nazis. If we drop 2,000-pound bombs on refugee shelters and kill hundreds of civilians, it’s Hamas’s fault for hiding close to these shelters. After what they did to us, we have no choice but to root them out. After what we did to them, we can only imagine what they would do to us if we don’t destroy them. We simply have no choice.
    In mid-July 1941, just weeks after Germany launched what Hitler had proclaimed to be a “war of annihilation” against the Soviet Union, a German noncommissioned officer wrote home from the eastern front:
    The German people owe a great debt to our Führer, for had these beasts, who are our enemies here, come to Germany, such murders would have taken place that the world has never seen before … What we have seen … borders on the unbelievable … And when one reads Der Stürmer [a Nazi newspaper] and looks at the pictures, that is only a weak illustration of what we see here and the crimes committed here by the Jews.

    An army propaganda leaflet issued in June 1941 paints a similarly nightmarish picture of Red Army political officers, which many soldiers soon perceived as a reflection of reality:
    Anyone who has ever looked at the face of a Red commissar knows what the Bolsheviks are like. Here there is no need for theoretical expressions. We would insult the animals if we described these mostly Jewish men as beasts. They are the embodiment of the satanic and insane hatred against the whole of noble humanity … [They] would have brought an end to all meaningful life, had this eruption not been dammed at the last moment.
    Two days after the Hamas attack, defence minister Yoav Gallant declared, “We are fighting human animals, and we must act accordingly,” later adding that Israel would “break apart one neighbourhood after another in Gaza”. Former prime minister Naftali Bennett confirmed: “We are fighting Nazis.” Prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu exhorted Israelis to “remember what Amalek has done to you”, alluding to the biblical call to exterminate Amalek’s “men and women, children and infants”. In a radio interview, he said about Hamas: “I don’t call them human animals because that would be insulting to animals.” Deputy Knesset speaker Nissim Vaturi wrote on X that Israel’s goal should be “erasing the Gaza Strip from the face of the Earth”. On Israeli TV he stated, “There are no uninvolved people … we must go in there and kill, kill, kill. We must kill them before they kill us.” Finance minister Bezalel Smotrich stressed in a speech, “The work must be completed … Total destruction. ‘Blot out the remembrance of Amalek from under heaven.’” Avi Dichter, agriculture minister and former head of the Shin Bet intelligence service, spoke about “rolling out the Gaza Nakba”. One Israeli 95-year-old military veteran, whose motivational speech to IDF troops preparing for the invasion of Gaza exhorted them to “wipe out their memory, their families, mothers and children”, was given a certificate of honour by Israeli president Herzog for “providing a wonderful example to generations of soldiers”. No wonder that there have been innumerable social media posts by IDF troops in Gaza calling to “kill the Arabs”, “burn their mothers” and “flatten” Gaza. There has been no known disciplinary action by their commanders.

    This is the logic of endless violence, a logic that allows one to destroy entire populations and to feel totally justified in doing so. It is a logic of victimhood – we must kill them before they kill us, as they did before – and nothing empowers violence more than a righteous sense of victimhood. Look at what happened to us in 1918, German soldiers said in 1942, recalling the propagandistic “stab-in-the-back” myth, which attributed Germany’s catastrophic defeat in the first world war to Jewish and communist treason. Look at what happened to us in the Holocaust, when we trusted that others would come to our rescue, IDF troops say in 2024, thereby giving themselves licence for indiscriminate destruction based on a false analogy between Hamas and the Nazis.

    The young men and women I spoke with that day were filled with rage, not so much against me – they calmed down a bit when I mentioned my own military service – but because, I think, they felt betrayed by everyone around them. Betrayed by the media, which they perceived as too critical, by senior commanders who they thought were too lenient toward Palestinians, by politicians who had failed to prevent the 7 October fiasco, by the IDF’s inability to achieve “total victory”, by intellectuals and leftists unfairly criticising them, by the US government for not delivering sufficient munitions fast enough, and by all those hypocritical European politicians and antisemitic students protesting against their actions in Gaza. They seemed fearful and insecure and confused, and some were likely also suffering from PTSD.

    I told them the story of how, in 1930, the German student union was democratically taken over by the Nazis. The students of that time felt betrayed by the loss of the first world war, the loss of opportunity because of the economic crisis, and the loss of land and prestige in the wake of the humiliating peace treaty of Versailles. They wanted to make Germany great again, and Hitler seemed able to fulfil that promise. Germany’s internal enemies were put away, its economy flourished, other nations feared it again, and then it went to war, conquered Europe and murdered millions of people. Finally, the country was utterly destroyed. I wondered aloud whether perhaps the few German students who survived those 15 years regretted their decision in 1930 to support nazism. But I do not think the young men and women at BGU understood the implications of what I had told them.
    The students were frightening and frightened at the same time, and their fear made them all the more aggressive. This level of menace, as well as a degree of overlap in opinion, seemed to have generated fear and obsequiousness in their superiors, professors and administrators, who demonstrated great reluctance to discipline them in any way. At the same time, a host of media pundits and politicians have been cheering on these angels of destruction, calling them heroes just a moment before putting them in the ground and turning their backs on their grief-stricken families. The fallen soldiers died for a good cause, the families are told. But no one takes the time to articulate what that cause actually is beyond sheer survival through ever more violence.

    And so, I also felt sorry for these students, who were so unaware of how they had been manipulated. But I left that meeting filled with trepidation and foreboding.
    As I headed back to the United States at the end of June, I contemplated my experiences over those two messy and troubling weeks. I was conscious of my deep connection to the country I had left. This is not just about my relationship with my Israeli family and friends, but also with the particular tenor of Israeli culture and society, which is characterised by its lack of distance or deference. This can be heartwarming and revealing; one can, almost instantaneously, find oneself in intense, even intimate conversations with others on the street, in a cafe, at a bar.

    Yet this same aspect of Israeli life can also be endlessly frustrating, since there is so little respect for social niceties. There is almost a cult of sincerity, an obligation to speak your mind, no matter who you’re talking to or how much offence it may cause. This shared expectation creates both a sense of solidarity, and of lines that cannot be crossed. When you are with us, we are all family. If you turn against us or are on the other side of the national divide, you are shut out and can expect us to come after you.

    This may also have been the reason why this time, for the first time, I had been apprehensive about going to Israel, and why part of me was glad to leave. The country had changed in ways visible and subtle, ways that might have raised a barrier between me, as an observer from the outside, and those who have remained an organic part of it.
    But another part of my apprehension had to do with the fact that my view of what was happening in Gaza had shifted. On 10 November 2023, I wrote in the New York Times: “As a historian of genocide, I believe that there is no proof that genocide is now taking place in Gaza, although it is very likely that war crimes, and even crimes against humanity, are happening. […] We know from history that it is crucial to warn of the potential for genocide before it occurs, rather than belatedly condemn it after it has taken place. I think we still have that time.”

    I no longer believe that. By the time I travelled to Israel, I had become convinced that at least since the attack by the IDF on Rafah on 6 May 2024, it was no longer possible to deny that Israel was engaged in systematic war crimes, crimes against humanity and genocidal actions. It was not just that this attack against the last concentration of Gazans – most of them displaced already several times by the IDF, which now once again pushed them to a so-called safe zone – demonstrated a total disregard of any humanitarian standards. It also clearly indicated that the ultimate goal of this entire undertaking from the very beginning had been to make the entire Gaza Strip uninhabitable, and to debilitate its population to such a degree that it would either die out or seek all possible options to flee the territory. In other words, the rhetoric spouted by Israeli leaders since 7 October was now being translated into reality – namely, as the 1948 UN Genocide Convention puts it, that Israel was acting “with intent to destroy, in whole or in part”, the Palestinian population in Gaza, “as such, by killing, causing serious harm, or inflicting conditions of life meant to bring about the group’s destruction”.

    These were issues that I could only discuss with a very small handful of activists, scholars, experts in international law and, not surprisingly, Palestinian citizens of Israel. Beyond this limited circle, such statements on the illegality of Israeli actions in Gaza are anathema in Israel. Even the vast majority of protesters against the government, those calling for a ceasefire and the release of the hostages, will not countenance them.
    Since I returned from my visit, I have been trying to place my experiences there into a larger context. The reality on the ground is so devastating, and the future appears so bleak, that I have allowed myself to indulge in some counter-factual history and to entertain some hopeful speculations about a different future. I ask myself, what would have happened had the newly created state of Israel fulfilled its commitment to enact a constitution based on its Declaration of Independence? That same declaration which stated that Israel “will be based on freedom, justice and peace as envisaged by the prophets of Israel; it will ensure complete equality of social and political rights to all its inhabitants irrespective of religion, race or sex; it will guarantee freedom of religion, conscience, language, education and culture; it will safeguard the Holy Places of all religions; and it will be faithful to the principles of the Charter of the United Nations”.

    What effect would such a constitution have had on the nature of the state? How would it have tempered the transformation of Zionism from an ideology that sought to liberate the Jews from the degradation of exile and discrimination and to put them on equal standing with the other nations of the world, to a state ideology of ethnonationalism, oppression of others, expansionism and apartheid? During the few hopeful years of the Oslo peace process, people in Israel began speaking of making it into a “state of all its citizens”, Jews and Palestinians alike. The assassination of prime minister Rabin in 1995 put an end to that dream. Will it ever be possible for Israel to discard the violent, exclusionary, militant and increasingly racist aspects of its vision as it is embraced there now by so many of its Jewish citizens? Will it ever be able to reimagine itself as its founders had so eloquently envisioned it – as a nation based on freedom, justice and peace?
    It is difficult to indulge in such fantasies at the moment. But perhaps precisely because of the nadir in which Israelis, and much more so Palestinians, now find themselves, and the trajectory of regional destruction their leaders have set them on, I pray that alternative voices will finally be raised. For, in the words of the poet Eldan, “there is a time when darkness roars but there is dawn and radiance”.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  10. #2790

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Those Westerners, are they in the room with us right now?
    Let's take a look at the easily researched facts:

    Hamas uses civilians as human shields (which is a war crime). Israel does not.

    Hamas prohibits civilians from leaving a war zone, killing those who attempt to flee. Israel does not.

    Hamas steals the money and aid sent to the civilians to buy more weapons and support it's leadership's luxurious lifestyles. Israel does not.

    Hamas uses kindergartens, schools, mosques and apartments as military bases to cause as much destruction as possible. Israel does not.

    Hamas commits mass rapes and uses the opportunity to rape as one of their main draws for recruits. Israel does not.

    That anyone at all sees Hamas as victims of Israeli aggression can only be explained by an insular culture of groupthink and self-delusion some westerners have fallen into, no different then Republicans who think white male Christians are cruelly persecuted in the US.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Dehumanization is the very denial of the humanity of the victims and their cultures. This denial facilitates physical destruction. The victimizer sees the victim as subhuman, as repugnant, as something that infests the surroundings.
    You mean the way Hamas sees all non-Muslims and Jews in particular?

  11. #2791
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Caughdrop, you build a strawman. Nobody in the West (as in "nobody except for extremely marginal groups") "idealizes the Russian and Islamic ways" (how can these two groups be put together, where do they converge?), your post was full of nonsense and elocubrations. Apart from this, I am not going to go into detail about what Hamas and Israel do. At this point, anyone who does not know what the two sides do has absolutely no interest in the subject or is a fanatic of one of the two sides.

    PS. Can you seriously point out any user of this site who is both against Israel (not to say, like you, that supporting Hamas) and in favor of Putin? Send me the name via visitor message.
    Last edited by mishkin; August 14, 2024 at 05:49 AM.

  12. #2792

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Let's take a look at the easily researched facts:
    Hamas uses civilians as human shields (which is a war crime). Israel does not.
    Hamas prohibits civilians from leaving a war zone, killing those who attempt to flee. Israel does not.
    Hamas steals the money and aid sent to the civilians to buy more weapons and support it's leadership's luxurious lifestyles. Israel does not.
    Hamas uses kindergartens, schools, mosques and apartments as military bases to cause as much destruction as possible. Israel does not.
    Hamas commits mass rapes and uses the opportunity to rape as one of their main draws for recruits. Israel does not.
    That anyone at all sees Hamas as victims of Israeli aggression can only be explained by an insular culture of groupthink and self-delusion some westerners have fallen into, no different then Republicans who think white male Christians are cruelly persecuted in the US.
    You mean the way Hamas sees all non-Muslims and Jews in particular?
    Why did you choose to lie about things people can easily Google? Israel's use of human shields is much better documented. They do use human shields. Israel is also known to bomb areas itself declared as safe zones. Entirety of Gaza is a warzone. The mass rape claim has little evidence other than what Israeli representatives claim and we know how many of them turned out to be blatant lies. We know for a fact that Israeli authorities banned doctors who treated people on October 7 from talking to UN investigators. On the other hand, we have video evidence of Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian detainees, among others. No one sees Hamas as the victim. Plenty sees Palestinians as victims. Do try to explain your choice of blatantly lying about what you claimed here though. Finding Hamas' atrocities more or less vile is one thing. To lie about Israeli atrocities as if they didn't happen is a completely different level. Is this the "insular culture of groupthink and self-delusion" you were talking about?
    The Armenian Issue

  13. #2793
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Let's take a look at the easily researched facts:

    Hamas uses civilians as human shields (which is a war crime). Israel does not.

    Hamas prohibits civilians from leaving a war zone, killing those who attempt to flee. Israel does not.

    Hamas steals the money and aid sent to the civilians to buy more weapons and support it's leadership's luxurious lifestyles. Israel does not.

    Hamas uses kindergartens, schools, mosques and apartments as military bases to cause as much destruction as possible. Israel does not.

    Hamas commits mass rapes and uses the opportunity to rape as one of their main draws for recruits. Israel does not.

    That anyone at all sees Hamas as victims of Israeli aggression can only be explained by an insular culture of groupthink and self-delusion some westerners have fallen into, no different then Republicans who think white male Christians are cruelly persecuted in the US.

    You mean the way Hamas sees all non-Muslims and Jews in particular?
    I bet you didn't even bother to read what the Israeli historian of the Holocaust Omar Bartov writes in the article I quoted in my last post. Here goes another excerpt of the article.Read slowly.


    ..In 30 April 1956, Moshe Dayan, then IDF chief of staff, gave a short speech that would become one of the most famous in Israel’s history. He was addressing mourners at the funeral of Ro’i Rothberg, a young security officer of the newly founded Nahal Oz kibbutz, which was established by the IDF in 1951 and became a civilian community two years later. The kibbutz was located just a few hundred metres from the border with the Gaza Strip, facing the Palestinian neighbourhood of Shuja’iyya.
    Rothberg had been killed the day before, and his body was dragged across the border and mutilated, before being returned to Israeli hands with the help of the United Nations. Dayan’s speech has become an iconic statement, used both by the political right and left to this day:Yesterday morning Ro’i was murdered. Dazzled by the calm of the morning, he did not see those waiting in ambush for him at the edge of the furrow.

    Let us not cast accusations at the murderers today. Why should we blame them for their burning hatred for us? For eight years they have been dwelling in Gaza’s refugee camps, as before their eyes we have transformed the land and the villages in which they and their forefathers had dwelled into our own property.

    We should not seek Roi’s blood from the Arabs in Gaza but from ourselves. How have we shut our eyes and not faced up forthrightly to our fate, not faced up to our generation’s mission in all its cruelty? Have we forgotten that this group of lads, who dwell in Nahal Oz, is carrying on its shoulders the heavy gates of Gaza, on whose other side crowd hundreds of thousands of eyes and hands praying for our moment of weakness, so that they can tear us apart – have we forgotten that?…

    We are the generation of settlement; without a steel helmet and the muzzle of the cannon we will not be able to plant a tree and build a home. Our children will not have a life if we do not dig shelters, and without barbed wire and machine guns we will not be able to pave roads and dig water wells. Millions of Jews who were exterminated because they had no land are looking at us from the ashes of Israeli history and ordering us to settle and resurrect a land for our people. But beyond the border’s furrow an ocean of hatred and an urge for vengeance rises, waiting for the moment that calm will blunt our readiness, for the day that we heed the ambassadors of conspiring hypocrisy, who call upon us to put down our arms …Let us not flinch from seeing the loathing that accompanies and fills the lives of hundreds of thousands of Arabs who dwell around us and await the moment they can reach for our blood. Let us not avert our eyes lest our hands grow weak. This is the destiny of our generation. This is the choice of our lives – to be ready and armed and strong and tough. For if the sword falls from our fist, our lives will be cut down.
    The following day, Dayan recorded his speech for Israeli radio. But something was missing. Gone was the reference to the refugees watching the Jews cultivate the lands from which they had been evicted, who should not be blamed for hating their dispossessors. Although he had uttered these lines at the funeral and written them subsequently, Dayan chose to omit them from the recorded version.

    He, too, had known this land before 1948. He recalled the Palestinian villages and towns that were destroyed to make room for Jewish settlers. He clearly understood the rage of the refugees across the fence. But he also firmly believed in both the right and the urgent need for Jewish settlement and statehood. In the struggle between addressing injustice and taking over the land, he chose his side, knowing that it doomed his people to forever rely on the gun.
    --
    Guterres compares civilian death toll in Ukraine and Gaza.
    unprecedented and unparalleled- video – May 2024

    you have more civilians killed in Gaza during a few months then the civilians - much, much more- more than the double, than the civilians killed after the Russian invasion of Ukraine in more than two years. And there you have two of the most powerful armies in the world using the most sophisticated weapons with bombardments all over.
    And this has caused much less civilian casualties than civilian casualties in Gaza. Which means that something is fundamentally wrong in the way this military operation has been conducted.
    Netanyahu believes his total victory will be achieved with the genocide of the Palestinian people and lambasted Gallant on monday, accusing him of adopting an “anti-Israel narrative”. Netanyahu accuses official of 'anti-Israel narrative' - ABC News
    "I hear all the heroes with the war drums, the 'absolute victory' and this gibberish," Gallant reportedly said.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 14, 2024 at 11:55 AM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  14. #2794

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    The wall of text non sequitur is going to free "Palestine" any minute now. Any. Minute.

    On a more serious note, it seems the school strike in the terrorist conclave deleted 30-40 terrorists, not 100 pregnant child journalists.

  15. #2795
    Kyriakos's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Impressive how people unironically give credence to simple lines like "they are terrorists" as excuse for mass murder.
    Reminds me of that dumb hungarian irl person who was vehemently racist against jews, until he discovered he had jewish ethnic background, and then became vehemently racist against "enemies of jews".
    It's the same guy, with the same small-minded us vs them mentality, only the insignificant us and them changes.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  16. #2796
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Atreides View Post
    The wall of text non sequitur is going to free "Palestine" any minute now. Any. Minute.

    On a more serious note, it seems the school strike in the terrorist conclave deleted 30-40 terrorists, not 100 pregnant child journalists.
    Image of some of the terrorists "deleted" in a recent airstrike against another "terrorist conclave".



    Palestinian twins, Aysal and Aser, were killed by an Israeli strike east of Deir al-Balah, central Gaza, on August 14, three days after their birth. At least 115 babies have been born and killed in the enclave, the health ministry said (CNN)

  17. #2797

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why did you choose to lie about things people can easily Google? Israel's use of human shields is much better documented. They do use human shields. Israel is also known to bomb areas itself declared as safe zones. Entirety of Gaza is a warzone. The mass rape claim has little evidence other than what Israeli representatives claim and we know how many of them turned out to be blatant lies. We know for a fact that Israeli authorities banned doctors who treated people on October 7 from talking to UN investigators. On the other hand, we have video evidence of Israeli soldiers raping Palestinian detainees, among others. No one sees Hamas as the victim. Plenty sees Palestinians as victims. Do try to explain your choice of blatantly lying about what you claimed here though. Finding Hamas' atrocities more or less vile is one thing. To lie about Israeli atrocities as if they didn't happen is a completely different level. Is this the "insular culture of groupthink and self-delusion" you were talking about?
    All I see are examples of "Several sources say", "Are alleged to have", "According to Hamas"...

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Caughdrop, you build a strawman. Nobody in the West (as in "nobody except for extremely marginal groups") "idealizes the Russian and Islamic ways"
    Sure they do. There are prominent voices calling for Russian victory and crowds of protestors cheering on Hamas.

    (how can these two groups be put together, where do they converge?),
    There are both seen as brave actors fighting the hated west.

    your post was full of nonsense and elocubrations. Apart from this, I am not going to go into detail about what Hamas and Israel do. At this point, anyone who does not know what the two sides do has absolutely no interest in the subject or is a fanatic of one of the two sides.
    In your opinion, what would have been the appropriate response to Oct 7?

    PS. Can you seriously point out any user of this site who is both against Israel (not to say, like you, that supporting Hamas) and in favor of Putin? Send me the name via visitor message.[/QUOTE]

    There are two who are frequent posters on both this and the Russia thread. I won't name names, but we all know who I'm talking about.


    According to the health ministry, aka Hamas. You may as well be trusting official statements from North Korea.

  18. #2798
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    All I see are examples of "Several sources say", ..
    See with your own eyes,



    It’s nothing new, Use of Palestinian Civilians as Human Shields by the Israeli Army- HCJ 3799/02, Adalah et al v. Yitzhak Eitan, Commander of the Israeli Army in the West Bank, et al- 2002

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    are two who are frequent posters on both this and the Russia thread. I won't name names, but we all know who I'm talking about.
    if you're talking about me, say it loud and clear. I'm not afraid of the Inquisition. But let me tell you something.In an interview with the Financial Times, Ukrainian novelist Andrey Kurkov spoke of the “new normal” in Ukraine. Andrey Kurkov on Ukraine two years on
    Many Ukrainians try to live as they did before the war as they see it as a sort of resistance. New rock groups and solo artists have appeared and are making a name for themselves in bars, pubs, concert halls and even military hospitals. Refusing to hide in bomb shelters, or to put their lives on hold until the end of the war, Ukraine’s farmers continue preparing their fields and allotments for the sowing season
    Ukrainians have bomb shelters, food, internet, schools, universities and civilian security. They even insistently demand Ukrainian translations of all video games released on the steam platform. Ukrainians visit libraries to buy books. It is impossible to get theatre tickets now, all performances are sold out because people want to get away from the war for an hour or two. Why is Ukraine's theater scene thriving amid war?
    it has become harder to secure theatre tickets. Arts venues are fully booked, and new performances are completely sold out.
    In contrast to Ukraine, Gaza has suffered from a situation that has never been normal in the last 75 years, and it's not even worth mentioning the ongoing genocide once again. Can't you see the difference?
    --
    A negotiated end to the war in Ukraine that somehow preserves Ukrainian sovereignty is desirable and possible. What is not easy is to articulate a realistic end state that preserves Ukrainian sovereignty and advances US geostrategic interests. The chances of a nuclear war are low, but not zero. Ukraine's conscription crisis underscores the challenges of sustaining a protracted conflict and the dream that the war will lead to the fragmentation of the Russian Federation is dangerously reckless.
    Now that I've confessed my heretical thoughts, don't forget to complain to the inquisition again.
    Last edited by Ludicus; August 14, 2024 at 08:42 PM.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  19. #2799

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    All I see are examples of "Several sources say", "Are alleged to have", "According to Hamas"...
    That's more true for what you claimed for Hamas' actions. What I presented included literal video evidence of an Israeli soldier raping a Palestinian detainee. The way you're lying right now to save your narrative is mind boggling.
    The Armenian Issue

  20. #2800
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    I can understand Israeli citizens who have been brainwashed by nationalist propaganda, education and media, but I find it hard to understand how a person who has not grown up and lives in Israel can accuse the media and international organizations of being anti-Semitic for talking about what Israel is doing. Is there any serious non-Israeli media outlet denying that what is happening in Gaza and the West Bank is horrible and unnecessarily cruel?

    Edit: I mean, not even Fox News in an article about Israel's good intentions (building a desalination plant to stop the water shortage in Gaza) can ignore facts.

    Two Israeli air strikes targeting aid supplies killed at least 11 Palestinians in Gaza on Monday, according to medics.
    One strike at a food distribution center in Gaza City, near the Shati refugee camp, killed three people.
    Another strike near Bani Suhaila town in the southern Gaza Strip killed at least eight people, including guards accompanying aid trucks.

    (Fox News, June 25)
    Last edited by mishkin; August 15, 2024 at 04:18 AM.

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