Hamas attacks southern Israel

[mishkin]

He thought Hamas was part of ISIS because of some flags in a video? (I have not seen nor will I see any video, only written press, sorry).

[Mithradates]

Hamas fighters agreeing that their acts are no different than the ones carried out by ISIS.

[mishkin]

Any information in any written media stating that, as nhytgbvfeco2 said, Hamas is now a faction of ISIS in Gaza?

[Infidel144]

Cornell Jewish Center Under Guard After Online Threats to Jewish Students
https://www.nytimes.com/2023/10/29/w...h-threats.html

Cornell, IIRC, is the university with the professor that gave a speech about how exhilarating and energizing the palestinian decolonization activities of the 7th were...

[Ludicus]

Read more carefully, that's not what Ludicus is saying. He is saying that the same mindset guiding people like Cecil Rhodes is the same as what we see in other leaders right now.

Thank you. Exactly
---
Israel, through its ambassador to the United Nations, Gilad Erdan, in an interview with Fox News, has called on "all decent countries" to stop funding the UN.
Here UN has 'completely lost' its legitimacy: Gilad Erdan

However, since Israel considers itself a decent country, shouldn't it set an example and withdraw from an organization it deems indecent? Why not leave the UN? Or, even better, why isn't Israel expelled from such an "indecent" organization by the majority it deems "indecent"? That would solve the problem.
---
Calls for UN leader's resignation intensify after 'shameful

The foreign policy of the US falls under the jurisdiction of its government, but the influence of the American Jewish lobby (both Republican and Democratic) is decisive in the decision-making process regarding many aspects of the US foreign policy. There are even analysts who suggest that the U.S. is more dependent on Israel than Israel is on the U.S.

[AnthoniusII]

I will be a bit distarbing.
Greeks co-exist with Jews, Arabs, Kurds and Persians among other enthic groups that disapeared in the time of history for more than 3000 years.
Greeks fought against or with or for them in the past several rimes. The result was a kind of respect of each ethnic group for an other.
Why this introduction. Almost 13000 Greek Jews fought in WW2 with the Greek army honoring the Greek soldier's and Greek Offocer's uniform with the most famous exxampe of Mardochaios Frizis a Colonel that actyally crashed the Italian Brigade Julia in1940 and died in his horse giving courage to his soldiers that admired him!!!!
Arabs fought with Greeks oe with them numerus times in such extend that Greek Orthodox Churches and Monasteries are un harmed guarded by Muslims!
If i would bt the Greek prime minister my message would be this:
To Jews : Inthe name of all those Greeks Christians that saved thousand of Greek Jews puting above all HUMANITY its time to show that you did not forget that and allow food and medicine to go to innocent civilians even if by nessasary the cargo's would be under check of the Jewish authority.
To the Arabs.
In the name of the people that were among the movement of 6 and the 1st that openly supported the Palestinian cause because Greeks also know about refuge and pain and in the name of the Honor of the Arab warrior that fights with a code of honor , return the hostages because only cowards hide behind hostages.
In the name of the 3000 years of co-exist of all of us part of the old world that gathered the wisdom of humanity this is my message.
About the stone. Years ago when a Greek Primemiister visited Isreal he visited a marble stone withe cities names curved on it in a line of the % of the Jewish loses in each city's native language.
The 1st 2 of them were Λαγκαδας (loses 100%) and Θεσσαλονικη. Can someone find a picture of that memorial stone?

[Hobbes]

I was responding to a post that was presenting her as offering some sort of wisdom on the issue. I thought that was obvious since I used the “reply” feature.

Although, I didn't say she is stupid. I think she’s more of a midwit who has a history of promoting nonsense.

Butler, one of the most prominent scholars who has written about systems of oppression based on othering processes is a midwit who has a history of promoting nonsense and has nothing to say about the Palestinian issue. Only on TWC. Sumskilz, is this all about the AAA boycott or something?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Why is it such a foreign concept that one can condemn Hamas' wholesale slaughter of civilians while also condemning Israel's?

Some people think that if they'd condemn Hamas then they're somehow betraying the palestinian cause.

I condemn any intentional harming of civilians by Israel/Israeli forces and Hamas. I also condemn the thousands of deaths and suffering of innocent people accepted as collateral damage by Hamas and Israel.

Good, thank you.

You wanted it to look like Hamas was an ISIS faction in Gaza.

It is in all but name. It helps ISIS in Sinai, acts like ISIS, has the same goals as ISIS. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..

This type of manipulation ("a regular joe killed the president rabin, it was nothing political") is never leading you to a successful outcome.

I said it was one guy, as opposed to multiple, as the post I replied to said "fanatics", plural.
Try harder.

About the stone. Years ago when a Greek Primemiister visited Isreal he visited a marble stone withe cities names curved on it in a line of the % of the Jewish loses in each city's native language.
The 1st 2 of them were Λαγκαδας (loses 100%) and Θεσσαλονικη. Can someone find a picture of that memorial stone?

I think you're talking about the Valley of the Communities at the Yad Vashem Holocaust museum in Jerusalem.




In other news: IDF forces have rescued one of the kidnapped soldiers, 19 year old Ori Magidish, she serves as a lookout (looks at cameras on the border).
This is why a ground incursion is neccesary.

[mishkin]

It is in all but name. It helps ISIS in Sinai, acts like ISIS, has the same goals as ISIS. If it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck..

Hamas is not ISIS. You try to simplify this by turning Hamas into the most execrable thing in humanity. They are people who are very screwed up in the head, just as there are people who are very screwed up in the head on the other side. You try to dehumanize them and remove them from the debate.

Be careful with gross similarities, because Israel's way of acting is some ultranationalist religious mesianic/the chosen people fascist bs.

I said it was one guy, as opposed to multiple, as the post I replied to said "fanatics", plural.
Try harder.

as if that had been your response and not an attempt to turn the murder into something totally apolitical.

In other news: IDF forces have rescued one of the kidnapped soldiers, 19 year old Ori Magidish, she serves as a lookout (looks at cameras on the border).
This is why a ground incursion is neccesary.

Congratulations. Could a calculation be made on how many innocent civilians have died to achieve that liberation?

[Nebaki]

Any information in any written media stating that, as nhytgbvfeco2 said, Hamas is now a faction of ISIS in Gaza?

Does ISIS accept Palestinians of Christian Faith? There is currently an influx of Disinformation and someone is really pushing it hard.

[mishkin]

They are driving me ing crazy, I have to admit. Edit: It was not a very difficult task, I must also admit.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Hamas is not ISIS. You try to simplify this by turning Hamas into the most execrable thing in humanity. They are people who are very screwed up in the head, just as there are people who are very screwed up in the head on the other side. You try to dehumanize them and remove them from the debate.

Hamas members aren't Human. They're not even animals, even animals aren't so cruel to their own kind. They bring immense suffering to both Israelis and Palestinians. Everyone, and I mean literally everyone, including the people of Gaza, will be better off when every Hamas member is wiped off of the face of this earth.

Be careful with gross similarities, because Israel's way of acting is some ultranationalist religious mesianic/the chosen people fascist bs.

Lol.

as if that had been your response and not an attempt to turn the murder into something totally apolitical.

The murder of a politician, especially a prime minister, is pretty much guaranteed to be political. Duh.

Congratulations. Could a calculation be made on how many innocent civilians have died to achieve that liberation?

No, but I'm sure Hamas will claim it was 500 and you'll believe them right away.

[mishkin]

"Lol", says a guy after declaring that a group of people are not human. You said before I should try harder. I ask you now not to make it so easy for me.

[Muizer]

Everyone, and I mean literally everyone, including the people of Gaza, will be better off when every Hamas member is wiped off of the face of this earth.

Personally I think the chances of that happening are 0. And even if that were possible, sooner or later (probably sooner) the same or similar ideas would reappear in a different guise. Ideas can't be killed with bombs. I fear this whole idea of 'eliminating Hamas' is just a rationalization Israel needs for what is purely a revenge / venting exercise. It's starting something they won't be able to finish, but once committed can't abandon without losing face either. It's the same mistake the US made after 9/11.

[Ludicus]

Hamas members aren't Human. They're not even animals,

Hamas Is Not ISIS. Here's Why That Matters-Time Magazine

Many Israelis, seeking to understand the horrors of Oct. 7, have turned to comparing Hamas to ISIS. The hashtag “#HamasisISIS” has trended on social media as Israeli leaders—including Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu—have frequently equated the two. But scholars of Islamist movements like myself, as well as counterterrorism officials, have long understood the comparison to be false. As Gershon Baskin, who has been Israel’s lead hostage negotiator with Hamas since 2006, told me recently: “Its acts of terrorism resemble ISIS, but they don’t have the same ideology.”

The first and most important difference is that Hamas is a Palestinian nationalist Islamist movement. That fused, dual identity differentiates it from ISIS, which is a transnational pan-Islamist movement that wants to gather a universal umma, or community of Muslim believers, into an “Islamic state” untethered from any nationalist project.
A second key difference is their relative religious extremism. Hamas is religiously conservative, but it does not ruthlessly harass or kill non-Muslims in Gaza simply because of their faith or religious comportment.

It tolerates women who don’t wear the hijab, people who sport tattoos, and teenagers who listen to American music. Christians and churches also coexist with Muslims in the Hamas-run enclave. None of this would have been possible under ISIS, a far more religiously extremist organization that tortured and mutilated people to compel their adherence to an ultra-radical version of Islam.

But comparisons between Hamas and ISIS abound in part because they can be politically useful.

Insisting that Hamas is ISIS enables Israeli leaders to muffle criticism of the country’s treatment of Palestinians, including airstrikes in Gaza since Oct. 7 that have left at least 8,000 people dead, two-thirds of them women and children. The conflation could also help win over U.S. leaders and public opinion. “Since 1973, every Israeli war has ended early, from Israel’s perspective, because of dwindling support from the U.S.,” one former Israeli diplomat told me recently. “Keeping the U.S. onside here is very important, so this is useful hasbara [public relations] for Israel.” This rhetorical sleight of hand helps convince people that Hamas is not just a threat to Israel, but to French boardwalks or American nightclubs in the way ISIS was.

Unlike ISIS, Hamas has existed for decades and is no mystery. It grew out of a Muslim charity established in 1973 and has a large social service wing. It split from the Palestine Liberation Organization as a result of the Oslo peace process’ failures and pursues violence against Israel. It won the 2006 Palestinian elections in Gaza and remains, along with its rival Fatah in the West Bank, one of two main political forces in the Palestinian territories. It has continuously negotiated with Israel for years on borders, prisoner swaps, and governance of Gaza. It is also, to some extent, the Frankenstein’s monster of Netanyahu, whose policies empowered Hamas in an effort to divide and weaken the Palestinian territories for years.

Hamas justifies horrific acts of terror as resistance to Israel’s occupation and has traditionally exploited the traumas caused by Israeli violence to grow its ranks. To recruit new members, it attends funerals and contacts bereaved relatives of family members killed in Israeli airstrikes. Its militants also capitalize on the deprivation, isolation, and prison-like conditions that have prevailed in the Gaza Strip since Israel began its blockade 16 years ago.

Nevertheless, Israel last week dropped leaflets that proclaimed “Hamas=ISIS” and warned civilians—who remain trapped in the Strip with nowhere safe to hide—to “surrender.” But that approach is likely falling on deaf ears in Gaza and throughout the Arab world, where most see Hamas as a religious-nationalist Palestinian resistance movement that is directly challenging Israel’s ongoing blockade and occupation.

To combat security threats effectively, Israeli leaders must resist facile comparisons and reckon with the fact that, at the heart of Hamas’s appeal among many of its recruits, lies not religious extremism but anger, anguish, and hopelessness.

Ensuring that Palestinians get the freedom, dignity, and self-determination they have demanded for over 75 years would be the most effective way to ensure Israel’s long-term security. Unfortunately, for millions of Palestinians and Israelis alike, that outcome looks ever more remote.

----
Netanyahu declaring invasion: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our holy bible.”
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass”. 1 Samuel 15:3

Former Un ambassador Nikki Haley also said: "we saw God’s goodness in the outpouring of the support that descended on Israel from around the world. And while evil is trying to claw its way back, God’s goodness is still clear, and it always be".

If two Muslims said what they said, they would be labeled as religious extremists. According to the Wall Street Journal, it’s just an innocent "metaphor".

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Personally I think the chances of that happening are 0. And even if that were possible, sooner or later (probably sooner) the same or similar ideas would reappear in a different guise. Ideas can't be killed with bombs. I fear this whole idea of 'eliminating Hamas' is just a rationalization Israel needs for what is purely a revenge / venting exercise. It's starting something they won't be able to finish, but once committed can't abandon without losing face either. It's the same mistake the US made after 9/11.

It won't be easy, but it's doable. There's no other choice, unfortunately.

"Lol", says a guy after declaring that a group of people are not human. You said before I should try harder. I ask you now not to make it so easy for me.

Their own actions have proven their complete lack of humanity.

Netanyahu declaring invasion: “You must remember what Amalek has done to you, says our holy bible.”
“Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass”. 1 Samuel 15:3

Former Un ambassador Nikki Haley also said: "we saw God’s goodness in the outpouring of the support that descended on Israel from around the world. And while evil is trying to claw its way back, God’s goodness is still clear, and it always be".

If two Muslims said what they said, they would be labeled as religious extremists. According to the Wall Street Journal, it’s just an innocent "metaphor".

As much as I despise Netanyahu, you're forcing me to come to his defence here. The man isn't even religious.

[Copperknickers II]

The standard of discussion has really fallen on this site since I was last here. This is the way I see things:

1. To quote one of the most seasoned war correspondants in British history, Robert Fisk, who was more familiar than most with the Israel-Palestine conflict:
'There are no good guys in war. There are only scared civilians, and fighting men who want revenge on the other side.'
It's tribal violence, pure and simple. Nobody should be defending either Hamas or the IDF leadership, nor trying to claim that one side is somehow 'better' than the other because of [insert inappropriate reference to Hitler or ISIS or whatever irrelevant comparison].

2. That said, this is a profoundly asymmetrical conflict between a wealthy battle-hardened national army and a ragtag band of poorly-equipped refugee fanatics. The Palestinians are fish in a barrel and they will suffer 10 times what Israelis suffer.

3. And finally, people who witness their family and neighbours being slaughtered don't tend to think rationally and are not necessarily going to be tolerant of the people who did it, or the group they come from. We would all be the same, so we ought not to be so quick to judge them. That doesn't mean they are right to be intolerant, it just means that's the default position of a community under attack.

[StarDreamer]

I'm sure a ceasefire would be possible if Hamas gave up its leadership involved in the 7 October attacks, and released all hostages. But I doubt people screaming at Israel to stop is going to think that would be reasonable.

[mishkin]

Netanyahu has rejected it outright, quoting the bible again and saying that this is plain and simple a time of war. According to his words, the conflict would continue even if you offered him the heads of the Hamas leadership on a platter.

Edit: and copperknickers is right in almost everything he said (the level of discussions has not dropped, "before" there was the same percentage of stupid garbage). (mea culpa mea culpa mea maxima culpa)

[nhytgbvfeco2]

I'm sure a ceasefire would be possible if Hamas gave up its leadership involved in the 7 October attacks, and released all hostages. But I doubt people screaming at Israel to stop is going to think that would be reasonable.

It's like the people screaming about aa ceasefire in Ukraine, even though that clearly just favours Russia.
They think a ceasefire will magically solve the problem and make it go away. It won't. There's no diplomatic solution here.
Either Hamas surrenders and gives themselves up, or they're annahilated in battle. Those are the only two options capable of resolving this.