Thread: Hamas attacks southern Israel

  1. #2141

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    No, they do not. The president is a ceremonial position, he doesn't decide a thing. The minister of Economy doesn't decide security policy. Etc.
    And yet they do not act on those chants, and those who do will recieve justice.
    It's only damning if you willfully ignore who it was said about and instead try to pan it as a statement about all palestinians. It was not. Don't conflate Hamas with palestinians.
    A handful morons saying moronic things is not overwhelming evidence of anything. Much like a few Turkish officials showing maps where Greek territory is painted as Turkish isn't a show of intention to invade Greece, wouldn't you agree?
    You expect anyone to take this seriously?
    The west bank is much better off than Gaza, so this is a very odd claim to make.
    I wanted to respond to each part separately but realized the sheer stupidity of what you're trying to argue here is refutation of itself enough on its own.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    First of all, thanks for engaging with the question at all. I'm serious.
    I don't disagree at all that Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank were in a difficult position in the period leading up to 7/10. It is not wrong to say that Israel was slowly choking the life out of any prospect of any form of resolution that would see Palestinians with self determination in a state of their own. This was very clear just from the ongoing encroachment of Israeli settlements in the West Bank.So, one can reason that from a perspective of justice, Israel has a large historical debt.
    What I do not agree with is that this historical debt translates into some sort of credit to attack Israeli targets without expecting repercussions. One might think that would be fair or balanced but the reality is these aren't transactions conducted within a legal framework both sides are committed to. It is the very essence of the conflict that they do not: The 'just cause' question is inherently irrelevant to the humanitarian aspects of war.
    The bolded part is not something anyone here argued.


    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    From a humanitarian point of view I would expect a nation to clear civilians out of areas under their control if they are about to become a war zone. I would expect of its adversary to permit this.
    So it is inherent that both Hamas and Israel have a responsibility. I divide it up roughly like this:
    On balance:
    - Hamas escalated a conflict in which they knew up front that at least they were not going to take responsibility for civilians lives under their rule. They engineered the battlefield such that they would never even be able to do their part.
    - Israel for its part has done no more than the bare minimum with its pro forma evacuation orders.
    So Hamas expected that civilian presence in urban warfare would give them a tactical advantage (use of human shields, a war crime in itself) and Israel kicked that ball back into Hamas' court with pro forma evacuation orders / warnings.
    It is clear in the end neither side seems to care.
    But those who are either partisan or inclined to favour the underdog are blaming it all on Israel. And that at least hand Hamas a partial political victory. One bought with the blood of its people. And one they were after all along. Well personally I do not want to be a part of that in any way. Even in a discussion here on this internet backwater.
    Hamas did not engineer the battlefield. They're incapable of engineering any battlefield given the asymmetrical nature of this conflict. You continue to treat Gaza as if it's a huge swat of land. It's not, yet you continue to ignore that repeatedly. The reason people put most of the blame on Israel is because Israel has the most power to dictate what's happening in Gaza. Israel decided on the borders of Gaza. Israel decided on keeping over a million Palestinian refugees in Gaza. Israel decided to hold Gaza under siege for decades depriving the locals of a basic livelihood. Israel decided to bar the Palestinian Authority from exerting any civilian control on Gaza. Hamas engineered none of that.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; February 28, 2024 at 11:16 AM.
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  2. #2142
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Israel's public relations are going to need an immense effort to recover some good image. Progressive Eurovision performances,...
    Ouch. European Broadcasting Union rejects Israel's 2nd

    insiders involved in the negotiations are "pessimistic" about reaching a favorable outcome.

    Middle East crisis live: Qatar accuses Israel of facilitating '

    Qatar has accused Israel of facilitating “the deliberate starvation of the Palestinian people” and called on the international community to apply more pressure on Israel, saying it was “painful” that the delivery of aid was still an issue.Foreign ministry spokesperson Majed Al Ansari said “There are two and a half million people living in complete absence of health and emergency services”.
    Al Ansari has already realized that some notable members of the Western community have other, much more important concerns; they have little interest in the sub-humans of Gaza.

    From the Guardian,
    A group of more than 50 broadcast journalists have sent an open letter …calling for “free and unfettered access” to Gaza for foreign media.
    Sit and Wait is a song by Youngblood.

    Four-in-five in the US public supports Israel, Netanyahu cites poll...

    …in response to Biden. On Monday, the US President claimed that Netanyahu's government's conduct could cause Israel to lose world support.
    The world support is irrelevant to Israel. Let’s keep in mind that American support for Israel is "God’s foreign policy" The Catastrophe in Palestine and Christian Zionism

    Christians United for Israel (CUFI), founded by John Hagee, is one of the largest, most powerful, and most well-financed pro-Israel organizations in the United States.
    Hagee has a long history of anti-Semitic, anti-Catholic, and Muslim remarks. In sermons and writings, he claimed that the anti-Christ would be partially Jewish and that Adolf Hitler, whom he termed a “half-breed Jew,” was sent by God to persecute European Jews to drive them to Israel.

    In 2006, as Israeli bombs ravaged Lebanon, Hagee famously remarked that American support for Israel was “God’s foreign policy.” None of Hagee’s vitriol has discouraged Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, former Vice President Mike Pence and former South Carolina governor/ U.N. envoy, Nikki Haley, as well as other Republicans from addressing CUFI summits and seeking Hagee’s support. And it was no surprise that Haley—whose tenure at the United Nations was defined by her pro-Israel advocacy—asked Hagee to open her 2024 presidential campaign.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Ludicus View Post
    Antisemites. Antisemites everywhere.

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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    It's sad, but that's how many people tend to think.

    ---
    Year 2020. US Department of Justice- Israel's Largest Bank, Bank Hapoalim, Admits to Conspiring with U.S. Taxpayers to Hide Assets and Income in Offshore Accounts.

    Four years have passed, and what are they doing now?Dawn asks, US: Investigate Israeli Financial Institutions Violating Biden settler sanctions.

    Israeli Bank Hapoalim, crowdfunding website GiveChak, and non-profit Har Hevron Fund are enabling violent settler to raise over $135,000 just days after White House announces sanctions against him.

    Ex-Israeli PM Warns Rafah Attack Would Be 'Risk We Cannot afford to take ’

    Israel will face dire consequences if it sends troops into the besieged city of Rafah, according to Ehud Olmert.
    The patience of the international community has reached a point from where I don’t think they’ll be able to absorb it,” he told Bloomberg News in an interview. “This is a risk we cannot afford to take.”
    I'm not entirely sure about that. Israel doesn’t care about your resolutions, international community.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer
    What I do not agree with is that this historical debt translates into some sort of credit to attack Israeli targets without expecting repercussions.
    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The bolded part is not something anyone here argued.
    It very much looks like it to me though. For instance:

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    The reason people put most of the blame on Israel is because Israel has the most power to dictate what's happening in Gaza. Israel decided on the borders of Gaza. Israel decided on keeping over a million Palestinian refugees in Gaza. Israel decided to hold Gaza under siege for decades depriving the locals of a basic livelihood. Israel decided to bar the Palestinian Authority from exerting any civilian control on Gaza. Hamas engineered none of that.
    If we disregard historical debt, as you say you do, it is simply a conflict between a weak polity (Hamas-run Gaza) and a powerful state (Israel).

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Hamas did not engineer the battlefield. They're incapable of engineering any battlefield given the asymmetrical nature of this conflict. You continue to treat Gaza as if it's a huge swat of land. It's not, yet you continue to ignore that repeatedly.
    What I think you are trying to argue is something along the lines of "the way Hamas fights is the product of circumstances created by Israel" and "Hamas is not to blame for civilian casualties if it is fighting Israel to the best of its abilities within those circumstances".

    However, that argument is void because Hamas itself deliberately and openly escalated the conflict to open warfare.

    So, when I say it is Hamas' responsibility to evacuate, I am not saying that it could have been done easily or at all. I am also not denying that is the result of a history they did not write. I am saying that it was nevertheless their responsibility once they decided to escalate the conflict. In any other conflict the inability to deliver would be the start of negotiations to surrender. Why not here?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  6. #2146
    nhytgbvfeco2's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    "High civilian casualties would add to the worldwide pressure on Israel to stop the war, Sinwar's message said"
    For those who keep denying that maximizing palestinian casualties is Hamas's strategy.

  7. #2147

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    It very much looks like it to me though. For instance:
    If we disregard historical debt, as you say you do, it is simply a conflict between a weak polity (Hamas-run Gaza) and a powerful state (Israel).
    What I think you are trying to argue is something along the lines of "the way Hamas fights is the product of circumstances created by Israel" and "Hamas is not to blame for civilian casualties if it is fighting Israel to the best of its abilities within those circumstances".
    However, that argument is void because Hamas itself deliberately and openly escalated the conflict to open warfare.
    So, when I say it is Hamas' responsibility to evacuate, I am not saying that it could have been done easily or at all. I am also not denying that is the result of a history they did not write. I am saying that it was nevertheless their responsibility once they decided to escalate the conflict. In any other conflict the inability to deliver would be the start of negotiations to surrender. Why not here?
    I didn't say we should disregard context which is what you describe as historical debt as if that makes it invalid. Nor did I argue that it gives Hamas any and all credit to freely attack Israel. You're trying really hard to shift focus away from Israel. You do that often by ignoring the realities on the ground. One normally would assume Israel's decades long siege of Gaza is what escalates the situation into open warfare. In any other conflict you wouldn't try to deny a party's actions to retaliate. Yet, you do here like there is no tomorrow. The inability to deliver decisive results doesn't wish away the continuous suffering of Palestinians.
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  8. #2148
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by nhytgbvfeco2 View Post
    maximizing palestinian casualties is Hamas's strategy.
    Lloyd Austin, today.
    More than 25,000 women, children killed by Israel in Gaza.
    A change in attitude is a change in perspective.

    Martin Griffiths,
    Even after close to five months of brutal hostilities, Gaza still has the ability to shock us. I’m appalled at the reported killing and injury of hundreds of people during a transfer of aid supplies west of Gaza City today. Life is draining out of Gaza at terrifying speed.
    --

    The Times They are A-changin'...

    U.S. views on Israel are far more divided than a poll cited by Netanyahu suggests -NYTimes.


    When asked whether the United States should “support Israel, support Hamas or not take a position” in the war, just 45 percent of registered voters chose Israel... according to a poll conducted by the Marquette University Law School between Feb. 5 and Feb. 15.
    The Marquette University Law School is one of the most respected pollsters in the United States when it comes to questions of accuracy and methodological transparency, and it holds the maximum rating — three stars — given by the analytical website FiveThirtyEight in its pollster ratings.

    Another well-regarded pollster, AP-NORC, found in late January that half of U.S. adults felt Israel’s military response in Gaza had “gone too far.

    While Mr. Netanyahu was mostly accurate in how he cited the finding of the Harvard-CAPS Harris poll, “there are plenty of other polls that show different results, and he omitted those,” Mr. Franklin said.
    ---
    Update, March1st,

    US blocks Security Council motion blaming Israel for deadly Gaza aid convoy incident

    We witness in Gaza live the banalization of evil of which Hannah Arendt spoke.
    The massacre continues without a glimpse of a ceasefire. Vain promises keep postponing the end of the slaughter of the population, trapped in a small space, with no possibility of escape. We witness a crime that the International Court of Justice has admitted could be genocide. What we see are hungry, murdered, defenseless human masses wandering bewildered among ruins.
    Where are the human rights so widely touted by the dominant media? Where are the Western sanctions and restrictions that could contain Israeli infamy? What role are the European Union's organs of power playing, washing their hands like Pilate? Why does the tragedy continue? - because it doesn't call into question the geostrategic convenience, emphatically applied to the war in Ukraine.
    Last edited by Ludicus; March 01, 2024 at 05:31 AM.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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  9. #2149

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    The way Israeli army is defending themselves on what happened around the aid convoy is especially bizarre.

    IDF spokesman reveals more details about Gaza stampede: 'We didn't fire at humanitarian convoy, we secured it'
    Rear Admiral Daniel Hagari unveils video of drone footage showing Gazans ambushing an aid truck carrying food and getting trampled to death during the looting; 'Dozens of Gazans were killed and injured as a result of the stampede'


    “Here are the facts: At 4:40 a.m., the first aid truck in the humanitarian convoy started making its way through the humanitarian corridor that we were securing. Yes, the IDF was securing the humanitarian corridor so that the aid convoy could reach its destination in northern Gaza,” he said.
    Why were the trucks going south to north in the first place? Why not distribute aid from the northern border of Gaza in an orderly fashion? Why let the trucks drive through an area housing thousands of starving people?

    "The tanks that were there to secure the convoy saw the Gazans being trampled and cautiously tried to disperse the mob with a few warning shots,” he said. “You can see how cautious they were when they were backing up. They were backing up securely, risking their own lives, not shooting at the mob,” he said, referring to video shot from a drone during the incident.
    Certainly gun fire sound is known to be very effective in dispersing crowded and starving mobs around trucks weighing tons...

    “This humanitarian aid was coordinated by Israel, for the people of Gaza. We want the aid to reach the people of Gaza. We are working around the clock to make this happen," according to Hagari.
    UNRWA suspends aid to northern Gaza amid ‘collapse of civil order’
    The UN agency in charge of Palestinian affairs said it has been forced to pause aid deliveries to northern Gaza – where it is not “possible to conduct proper humanitarian operations” – amid increasing reports of famine among people in the area.
    UNRWA has not been granted permits by the Israeli authorities to deliver aid to northern Gaza for more than a month, while humanitarian organisations have increasingly despaired at the tiny trickle of aid permitted into Gaza.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    I didn't say we should disregard context which is what you describe as historical debt as if that makes it invalid. Nor did I argue that it gives Hamas any and all credit to freely attack Israel. You're trying really hard to shift focus away from Israel.
    Evidently that is not how I see the debate is trending. From my perspective, it seems like apart from the events of 7/10 itself, it is a litany of accusations addressed to Israel, which IMHO overlooks the responsibility of Hamas in creating this situation. But pointing that out seems anathema. Whenever I do, that's taken as me trying to exculpate Israel. Why? Is it impossible that both sides share the blame, such that if you criticize one you're automatically taking the side of the other?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #2151

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Evidently that is not how I see the debate is trending. From my perspective, it seems like apart from the events of 7/10 itself, it is a litany of accusations addressed to Israel, which IMHO overlooks the responsibility of Hamas in creating this situation. But pointing that out seems anathema. Whenever I do, that's taken as me trying to exculpate Israel. Why? Is it impossible that both sides share the blame, such that if you criticize one you're automatically taking the side of the other?
    You know very well that that's not really an accurate representation of what you're been arguing here. Spending pages on disregarding any Israeli brutality and responsibility to the level of almost justifying and trying to only talk about Hamas actions inaccurately to say that you've been merely trying to placate blame on both sides is just ridiculous argumentation.
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    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    It's interesting to hear Muizer continuously repeating that "it is a litany of accusations addressed to Israel, which IMHO overlooks the responsibility of Hamas in creating this situation"

    Let's hear what Thomas Friedman has to say on the subject. Israel Is Losing Its Greatest Asset: Acceptance -New York Times
    Excerpts,
    I’ve spent the past few days traveling from New Delhi to Dubai and Amman, and I have an urgent message to deliver to President Biden and the Israeli people: I am seeing the increasingly rapid erosion of Israel’s standing among friendly nations — a level of acceptance and legitimacy that was painstakingly built up over decades. And if Biden is not careful, America’s global standing will plummet right along with Israel’s.

    (…) It felt to me, at least, that the world was ready initially to accept that there were going to be significant civilian casualties if Israel was going to root out Hamas and recover its hostages, because Hamas had embedded itself in tunnels under homes, hospitals, mosques and schools and made no preparations of its own to protect Gazan civilians from the Israeli retaliation it knew it would trigger.

    But now we have a toxic combination of thousands of civilian casualties and a Netanyahu peace plan that promises only endless occupation, no matter if the Palestinian Authority in the West Bank transforms itself into a legitimate, effective, broad-based governing body that can take control of both the West Bank and Gaza and be a partner one day for peace.

    So the whole Israel-Gaza operation is starting to look to more and more people like a human meat grinder whose only goal is to reduce the population so that Israel can control it more easily.
    Obviously.
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    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    You know very well that that's not really an accurate representation of what you're been arguing here. Spending pages on disregarding any Israeli brutality and responsibility to the level of almost justifying and trying to only talk about Hamas actions inaccurately to say that you've been merely trying to placate blame on both sides is just ridiculous argumentation.
    This is simply incorrect. My argument was never to shift all of the blame on Hamas, just substantial part. I have[\I] outlined what I believe are the responsibilities of both sides and I [have] said both have failed. The problem is that as far as the responsibility of Hamas is concerned I might as well be talking to a brick wall.

    @Ludicus, I have not repeated that once, let alone continuously. Furthermore if you're going to cite me, it would be nice if what follows had anything remotely to do with the quote.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  14. #2154

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    This is simply incorrect. My argument was never to shift all of the blame on Hamas, just substantial part. I have[\I] outlined what I believe are the responsibilities of both sides and I [have] said both have failed. The problem is that as far as the responsibility of Hamas is concerned I might as well be talking to a brick wall.
    Paying lip service to Israel being also responsible and then pushing every responsibility to Hamas in your arguments while deliberately ignoring Israeli actions doesn't sit well with your claim there. World is already quick to react when Hamas or those helping the Palestinians are accused. UNWRA losing much of its financing because 7 out of thousands of its affiliates in Gaza might have been involved with helping Hamas is a testament to that. It took serious genocide allegations on Israel to have some countries start acting cautiously with Israel. Your brick wall is not where you're looking.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Paying lip service to Israel being also responsible and then pushing every responsibility to Hamas in your arguments while deliberately ignoring Israeli actions doesn't sit well with your claim there.
    Count yourself lucky. Lip service is more than I got from you regarding Hamas' responsibility.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  16. #2156

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Count yourself lucky. Lip service is more than I got from you regarding Hamas' responsibility.
    Naturally, given that I don't find Hamas equally responsible for completely destroying Gaza.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Naturally, given that I don't find Hamas equally responsible for completely destroying Gaza.
    Which part do you think they're responsible for?
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  18. #2158

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Which part do you think they're responsible for?
    Why does pointing out the responsibility of Israel in killing of civilians trigger people so much is beyond my understanding. What responsibility Hamas has now is irrelevant. Israel made sure of that.
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    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Why does pointing out the responsibility of Israel in killing of civilians trigger people so much is beyond my understanding. What responsibility Hamas has now is irrelevant. Israel made sure of that.
    There's that brick wall again. To know it is irrelevant, you have to know what it is.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  20. #2160

    Default Re: Hamas attacks southern Israel

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    There's that brick wall again. To know it is irrelevant, you have to know what it is.
    There is that trigger again. The brick wall you're attributing to me is the very same wall you're standing on. Your entire approach to this matter has been one big projection. The case you've been trying to sell here have been found to be faulty and you have been reluctant to defend it. It's not a matter of not knowing Hamas' responsibility. It's a matter of being accurate and impartial about it. You haven't been and now you're begging me to give you a hole to poke through which is something I'm not entertaining, hence, the trigger.
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