Do the Actions of Israel in Gaza Constitute Genocide?

[Ludicus]

Its genocide, not "ethnic cleansing"...
European Journal of Public Health, Volume 18, Issue 2, April 2008, Pages 204–209, https://doi.org/10.1093/eurpub/ckm011
Published:18 May 2007

Bystanders’ use of the term ‘ethnic cleansing’ signals the lack of will to stop genocide, resulting in huge increases in deaths, and undermines international legal obligations to acknowledge genocide... ‘Ethnic cleansing’ bleaches the atrocities of genocide, leading to inaction in preventing current and future genocides.

--
Israel's far-right government celebrates Trump win, plans West Bank annexation

The newspaper Haaretz announced that Leiter, Netanyahu’s former chief of staff, immigrated to Israel about four decades ago as part of a group of activists in the terrorist organization founded by Meir Kahane in the U.S.

Netanyahu chooses diehard supporter of Israeli settlements as new US ambassador amid Trump return
-----

The facts about Israeli sovereignty in Judea and Samaria - Yechiel Leiter

The Jewish people are the only people in fact who have a recognized legal right over Judea and Samaria. This legal affirmation was enshrined in the mandate drafted and approved by 51 principle members of the League of Nations guaranteeing the “right of Jewish people to reconstitute their national home” in the Land of Israel (1922), thereby recognizing a preexisting historical right...Judea and Samaria have never been under the sovereignty of any other country than the State of Israel.

Mark Mazower,a British historian, writes in Governing the World: the History of an Idea, 1815 to the Present that the League of Nations, created after World War I, "was part of a worldview that guaranteed the virtues of empire" and created systems of "mandates to redefine Europe's relationship with the colonial world." The League of Nations was an extension of the British and French empires under the guise of a universal organization.
The debate at the time is well known. Winston Churchill said that in the new division of the world, "there would be no annexations, but mandates would be assigned to the major powers, giving them the necessary excuse for their control," and President Wilson "had publicly expressed his opposition to annexations," (1) but the French "wanted pure and simple annexations so that France could continue its civilizing work in Africa without restrictions."

The solution? "Caught between the Americans, who wanted to break with the colonial past, and the French, who wanted more colonies, the British found a middle ground: three classes of mandates would be created, corresponding to the civilizational capacities of their respective inhabitants. Class A mandates (in the Middle East) provided for the provisional recognition of independence; Class B and C mandates (for supposedly primitive places in the Pacific and Asia) would continue to be colonies, except in name."

Conclusion: "Everyone was satisfied, except the inhabitants of the mandate ."

Mazower says that the idea of creating mandates "fine-tunes the idea that the simple colonial expansion of the 19th century was unacceptable to public opinion in America and Europe, but, at the same time, wanted to maintain the civilizational standard through Western control, since 'granting freedom to colonial peoples seemed equally ridiculous.'"

It was only later, Mazower notes, that it was revealed that during World War I, the Middle East had been "secretly divided into British and French spheres of influence by the Sykes-Picot Agreement."

This is how the mandate for Palestine, under British supervision, came into being. Later, in the 1930s, under the presidency of the French Joseph Avenol, the League of Nations "found itself in an embarrassing and even despicable role," Mazower mentions. In 1935, when fascist Italy invaded Ethiopia, "Avenol consented to sacrificing Ethiopia to keep Italy in the Society." And then "he forced the removal of some Jewish officials and repeatedly attempted to ensure Nazi Germany's return to the 'club.'"

It is this discredited and defunct organization that the Israeli ambassador Yechiel Leiter cites to defend his colonialist ideas. What does Leiter say about the text that the League of Nations approved 102 years ago? That the "legal right" of Jews to live in the West Bank was enshrined in the mandate written and approved by the 51 main members of the League of Nations, guaranteeing the "right of the Jewish people to reconstitute their national home" in Israel.

The text refers to Palestine but does not take into account the desires of the Palestinian people. The text does not mention Judea and Samaria, contrary to the ambassador's biblical-archaeological arguments, who claims, "the Jewish people are the only people that, in fact, have a legally recognized right over Judea and Samaria." He uses the names from the time when these territories were provinces of the Roman Empire and appear in the Bible. The League of Nations has been dead and buried for eighty years. Leiter forgot to mention that the UN has been trying for sixty years to correct the mistakes of the past, including this 1922 text, and that for sixty years, the UN has been saying that the solution is two states.

(1)"A free open-minded and absolutely impartial adjustment of all colonial claims based upon a strict observation of the principle that in determining all such questions of sovereignty the interests of the populations concerned must have equal weight with the equitable claims of the government whose title is to be determined"- Woodrow Wilson.


The Sykes-Picot Agreement: The Agreement that Haunts the Modern Middle East

Despite initially being kept secret, the Sykes-Picot Agreement was eventually publicized by the Bolsheviks in late November 1917 following the Russian Revolution. Leon Trotsky published the Sykes-Picot Agreement in Izvestia newspaper on November 24 1917 to expose the plans which Vladimir Lenin called ‘the agreement of the colonial thieves’. This caused a political scandal for Britain and France and created a strong mistrust between the Entente and Arab nationalists.

--

600 teddy bears highlighted the plight of kids forcibly taken by Putin's evil regime. "Remember Me" at the Monument in Washington DC

There wouldn't be enough teddy bears for the poor Palestinian children and there would never be a ‘Remember Me’ for the many thousands of children murdered by the Israeli regime. Any attempt would be immediately forbidden.

[flo463]

provide necessary context and refuting information to provide a more accurate picture of reality than the one you try to paint.

"I only use such sources when it suits me"


in other words apart from putting down your interlocutor you have nothing else to do but dodge the issue?





posting the links of a 100% biased channel without any neutrality or impartiality which is contrary to journalism no problem.




Since when does a propaganda channel have "substance" It's like saying that russians TV channels have substance after 24 february 2022


but i only use sources when it suits me, None of these are intelligent or legitimate responses



you posted links to a propaganda channel, not a news channel and you claim that "i don't respond", they're not "intelligent or legitimate answers"


I could turn your arguments around because posting a propaganda channel, denigrating your opponent was neither intelligent nor legitimate responses if you at least had diversified your "sources" as I did before accusing me you will have been more "credible"



i think on the contrary i responded perfectly. it is you who voluntarily do not see and deviate


Sorry if you don't understand that Hamas terrorists have every interest in hiding among civilians like the Taliban and many others before


Amnesty International

31 january 2006


"Leaders and spokespeople of Hamas have often condemned Israel's attacks against Palestinians as violations of international law. But they have repeatedly sought to justify killings of Israeli civilians in the name of resisting the occupation. They must recognize that the same international law is equally applicable to them --- both in their conduct vis-à-vis Israel and at home," said Amnesty International.



say, such incitements should not be the responsibility of international justice or does it only work if it is Israel?

because when it is Israel that retaliates, quickly quickly the haters run before the Criminal Court for a so-called Genocide while there are other conflicts that have caused many more civilian victims


July 25, 2014








Statements by some leaders of Palestinian armed groups also indicate that they have no qualms about launching attacks against civilians and that they in fact carry out such attacks intending to kill and injure Israeli civilians. Attacks that directly target civilians and indiscriminate attacks that kill or injure civilians constitute war crimes.


In previous conflicts Amnesty International has documented that Palestinian armed groups have stored munitions in and fired indiscriminate rockets from residential areas in the Gaza Strip in violation of international humanitarian law


Reports have also emerged during the current conflict of Hamas urging residents to ignore Israeli warnings to evacuate. However, these calls may have been motivated by a desire to minimize panic and displacement, in any case, such statements are not the same as directing specific civilians to remain in their homes as “human shields” for fighters, munitions, or military equipment. Under international humanitarian law even if “human shields” are being used Israel’s obligations to protect these civilians would still apply.



this looks very similar to what has been happening since October 7


hamas launches the worst terrorist attack on Israel's soil

hiding among civilians


then blames israel when they kill civilians




so according to you Amnesty International which condemns hamas for using residential areas to fire missiles on Israel... is neither an "intelligent nor legitimate response"?


when the talibans and other movements were doing exactly the same thing.




I am a terrorist, I will hide among civilians, attack soldiers and then disappear or play the innocent victim


anyone would understand that





https://www.reuters.com/world/middle-east/unrwa- is-sued-by-israeli-victims-oct-7-hamas-attack-2024-06-24/


victims' families sue UN for complicity


UN was involved and helped hamas and also hezbollah



since you like your propaganda channel, even it is forced to tell the truth


Unrwa says assassinated Hamas leader in Lebanon was former employee | Middle East Eye


Unrwa says assassinated Hamas leader in Lebanon was former employee

so a hamas leader worked with the United Nations?


it's as if isis, al-quaeda worked with the un


first employees who participate in october 7


now a hamas leader working for UN?


and UN who accuses Israel of "Genocide" oups.



everyone lies out of opportunism, anti-semitism hate



i know it's hard to cope with reality.



instead of denigrating me, try to find better than a propaganda channel or weak arguments. and you still haven't convinced me of "the existence of a genocide".

[chriscase]

Please remember the topic of this thread is specifically the question as to Israel allegedly commiting genocide in Gaza. More general discussion of the Hamas attack and related events goes in a different thread.

Also bear in mind the Mudpit Rules, in particular:

Rule #1 Excerpt

Debate in good faith and respect other members.

as well as

Rule #2 Excerpt

Address the argument, do not attack the person. Debates should be as detached and impersonal as possible. Do not post in such a manner that would elicit a strong, emotional response if possible.

Personal references are off topic and violate the Terms of Service.

[RollingWave]

The burden of proof is on the side of the no guys, and heck, NO ONE IN ISRAEL IS SAYING THAT's NOT HAPPENING, there's only 2 camp and neither camp is denying what's happening, merely what the definition is.

Haaretz is crying at the top of it's voice every day for a year now that's not only what's happening, but it's literally what the politicians and executioners had in mind all along.

If the US and Israel was serbia, would there even be a ounce of doubt? the only question is how many million people will be persecuted at the Hague, because it's at least that many.

[AqD]

Its genocide, not "ethnic cleansing"...
European Journal of Public Health, Volume 18, Issue 2, April 2008, Pages 204–209, https://doi.org/10.1093/eurpub/ckm011

What about self defense?

If someone hates you so much he wants you dead, what can you possibly do except for killing him?

[PointOfViewGun]

@Pointofviewgun the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem..... Netanyahu's ancestor?

Hitler fits the bill better.

[mishkin]

What about self defense?

If someone hates you so much he wants you dead, what can you possibly do except for killing him?

Are you justifying the murder of tens of thousands of women and children and the destruction of Gaza?

[Ludicus]

I've already quoted three Holocaust historians who are in perfect agreement: it is a genocide. The last one I quoted was Amos Golberg, chair of the Jonah M. Machover Chair of Holocaust Studies at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, who published an article in the online magazine Local Call (Siha Mekomit, in Hebrew) accusing Israel of committing "genocide" in Gaza
Faced with the scale of the massacres and destruction perpetrated by the Israeli army in Gaza, the Israeli historian and Holocaust expert also said in an interview with Le Monde that his country "criminally exaggerated" the October 7 massacres.
Amos Goldberg: 'What is happening in Gaza is a genocide

because Gaza does not exist anymore

Since then, the situation, which was already catastrophic, has become much worse. It is now apocalyptic.

Guterres: Gaza in appalling and apocalyptic situation

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Ah yes, another disgusting comparison to the Holocaust, an utterly incomparable event.
Let's play a quick numbers game:
Holocast: 6 million Jews killed over a period of 6 years, roughly 1 million per year. Well over a third of worldwide Jewry, over two thirds of European Jewry. Global Jewish population still has not recovered to pre Holocaust levels.
Armenian genocide: 600k - 1.5 million Armenians killed over a period of 2 years, roughly 300,000 - 750,000 deaths per year. Somewhere between 25% and 75% of Turkey's Armenian population dead.
Israel-Hamas war: 50k deaths in a year and a month, so a rate of 50k per year. About 2.3% of Gazan population, 0.3% of global palestinian population. There have been over 50k births in Gaza alone since the war started, meaning population numbers already recovered.
There's of course also the issue of intent. In the first two a specific ethnic group was targetted. In the last, there isn't.
One of those is not like the others. By a looooong shot.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

The burden of proof is on the side of the no guys

Literally not how logic works. Please prove that unicorns don't exist.

and heck, NO ONE IN ISRAEL IS SAYING THAT's NOT HAPPENING

Hi, Israeli here. There is no genocide.

there's only 2 camp and neither camp is denying what's happening, merely what the definition is.

It's like if I ate a hamburger and you accused me of cannibalism, and I'd say "no, cannibalism is when you eat a member of your species", and then you go "aha! you're not denying what's happening, merely what the definition is!"
Like yeah, the definition is the main part here? lol.

Haaretz is crying at the top of it's voice every day for a year now that's not only what's happening, but it's literally what the politicians and executioners had in mind all along.

Haaretz is an awful, heavily biased, source. It's worse than Al-Jazeera. And paywalled, to boot.

If the US and Israel was serbia, would there even be a ounce of doubt? the only question is how many million people will be persecuted at the Hague, because it's at least that many.

I think you meant to say prosecuted, but the word you've used does fit better in this context.

[PointOfViewGun]

Ah yes, another disgusting comparison to the Holocaust, an utterly incomparable event.
Let's play a quick numbers game:
Holocast: 6 million Jews killed over a period of 6 years, roughly 1 million per year. Well over a third of worldwide Jewry, over two thirds of European Jewry. Global Jewish population still has not recovered to pre Holocaust levels.
Armenian genocide: 600k - 1.5 million Armenians killed over a period of 2 years, roughly 300,000 - 750,000 deaths per year. Somewhere between 25% and 75% of Turkey's Armenian population dead.
Israel-Hamas war: 50k deaths in a year and a month, so a rate of 50k per year. About 2.3% of Gazan population, 0.3% of global palestinian population. There have been over 50k births in Gaza alone since the war started, meaning population numbers already recovered.
There's of course also the issue of intent. In the first two a specific ethnic group was targetted. In the last, there isn't.
One of those is not like the others. By a looooong shot.

Efficacy of killing does not validate or invalidate legitimacy of a genocide charge. Genocide is not a numbers game. It is a very specific crime. It is usually perpetrators of a false accusation or defense of genocide that comes with this game. What's funny is spending pages on trying to discredit numbers from Gaza health officials' limited ability to count the death. The real figure is likely to be many fold.

While at it, will you finally tell me how many pregnant women were killed on October 7 per your claim?

[nhytgbvfeco2]

Efficacy of killing does not validate or invalidate legitimacy of a genocide charge. Genocide is not a numbers game. It is a very specific crime. It is usually perpetrators of a false accusation or defense of genocide that comes with this game. What's funny is spending pages on trying to discredit numbers from Gaza health officials' limited ability to count the death. The real figure is likely to be many fold.

If the intent was to destroy the population you'd expect there to be a death rate that is higher than the birth rate. Either Israel is incomprehensibly incompetent at genociding, or it's not genociding.
Yes, I'm taking Hamas numbers because that's the high estimate, and yet even it pales in comparison.

While at it, will you finally tell me how many pregnant women were killed on October 7 per your claim?

Don't know, might just be the one, how is this relevant?

[PointOfViewGun]

If the intent was to destroy the population you'd expect there to be a death rate that is higher than the birth rate. Either Israel is incomprehensibly incompetent at genociding, or it's not genociding.
Yes, I'm taking Hamas numbers because that's the high estimate, and yet even it pales in comparison.

It doesn't work like that. None of what you said has any basis in logic or reality. For starters, Gaza health officials' numbers are not the highest estimate, nor they are an estimate. They are recorded deaths and could only be used for a lowest estimate. Israel is killing as many Palestinians as it possibly can without losing substantial international support as its deeply entangled with the international community.

Don't know, might just be the one, how is this relevant?

You tried to argue earlier as if Hamas killed pregnant women left and right. Glad to see you backtrack from that.

[flo463]

South Africa was reluctant to arrest Putin and would have even modified its law to know who to arrest


but anti-Semitism SA did not hesitate to bring Israel before the same court while other conflicts (Myanmar, Ukraine, Yemen,...) having caused more victims are ongoing, hypocrisy at its finest.



@ nhytgbvfeco2 indeed, the comparison with holocaust is disgusting.

[Papay]

What about self defense?

If someone hates you so much he wants you dead, what can you possibly do except for killing him?

With a "final sollution" on the Palestinian issue its obvious that noone will hate Israel anymore

[Laser101]

Efficacy of killing does not validate or invalidate legitimacy of a genocide charge. Genocide is not a numbers game. It is a very specific crime. It is usually perpetrators of a false accusation or defense of genocide that comes with this game. What's funny is spending pages on trying to discredit numbers from Gaza health officials' limited ability to count the death. The real figure is likely to be many fold.

It kind of is though. The point of genocide is the destruction of a particular target group. If that isn't actually being pursued (and there isn't a lot of evidence for that being the case here) then you don't have a genocide.

You can have mass killings and atrocities without a genocide per se. Although I generally favour the more restrictive definition (so I don't think that something like the Holodomor qualifies for example).

[nhytgbvfeco2]

It doesn't work like that. None of what you said has any basis in logic or reality. For starters, Gaza health officials' numbers are not the highest estimate, nor they are an estimate. They are recorded deaths and could only be used for a lowest estimate.

They are an estimate, released by Hamas, which has an interest in inflating civilian casualty numbers, because that's the only way they can win this war.
Hamas is the only party that benefits from high civilian casualties in Gaza. There's not a single benefit to Israel from it.
And yes, it very much does work like that. A 'genocide' that will never kill a population cannot be a genocide, which by definition is the intent to kill a population.

Israel is killing as many Palestinians as it possibly can without losing substantial international support as its deeply entangled with the international community.

Why on earth would it be doing that??

You tried to argue earlier as if Hamas killed pregnant women left and right. Glad to see you backtrack from that.

Nope, I didn't. I stated that they did it, and they did do it.

[nhytgbvfeco2]

With a "final sollution" on the Palestinian issue its obvious that noone will hate Israel anymore

People will always hate Israel. It's full of Jews.

[Muizer]

Genocide is a very specific crime so the only viable options are Yes, No, and Not sure/I don't know as you created the poll with. Someone could argue that what's being done in Gaza is an ethnic cleansing without a genocidal component but that would still fall under the No category.

This is an interesting observation, but you stopped short of formulating why you made it, whether you'd have like to see something different and why? Care to elaborate?

[PointOfViewGun]

It kind of is though. The point of genocide is the destruction of a particular target group. If that isn't actually being pursued (and there isn't a lot of evidence for that being the case here) then you don't have a genocide.
You can have mass killings and atrocities without a genocide per se. Although I generally favour the more restrictive definition (so I don't think that something like the Holodomor qualifies for example).

Pursuing a genocide is independent from accomplishing an exhaustive one. We have plenty of evidence that Israel has been employing policies to inflict as much damage on the civilian population as they're allowed to purse elimination of Palestinians in Gaza; attacks on civilian targets, starvation, denial of medical supplies, etc.

They are an estimate, released by Hamas, which has an interest in inflating civilian casualty numbers, because that's the only way they can win this war.
Hamas is the only party that benefits from high civilian casualties in Gaza. There's not a single benefit to Israel from it.
And yes, it very much does work like that. A 'genocide' that will never kill a population cannot be a genocide, which by definition is the intent to kill a population.

The argument that they're inflating those numbers is a baseless one given the level of destruction Israel has been inflicting on Gaza. There is no substance to cast doubt on those numbers in any way. The current situation in Gaza can easily kill the entire population if the international community allows it. Much of the aid is delivered because of international pressure. Israel would have no problem with starving 2 million people. They even did at one point cut off all water supply to Gaza. The intent is there. The pursuit is there. It's only stopped from accomplishing its goals by non-Israeli actors.

Why on earth would it be doing that??

The same reason it's creeping up on West Bank for so long.

Nope, I didn't. I stated that they did it, and they did do it.

You did:

Hamas murdered men, women, and children. They murdered entire families whole. They went door to door and shot people, and set houses on fire on top of their residents. They've raped, mutilated, beheaded, and kidnapped civilians. They murdered infants, pregnant women, holocaust survivors, and paraplegics. They've committed a genocidal act of unmatched brutality. Hamas are utter scum that deserve nothing less than eradication. Continuing to milk the same story being untrue over and over and over again for over a year won't change that.

You tried to portray these as happening rampantly on October 7. Much of them did not. You called killing of one pregnant woman as a genocidal act of unmatched brutality. That's why you couldn't tell me how many pregnant women murdered on October 8 when I asked you at that time. The reality does not support you to make such portrayals.