Hamas attacks southern Israel

[Papay]

While the West Bank is ideologically important to a growing minority of Israelis, the average Israeli doesn’t care one way or another about any of it, other than the Old City of Jerusalem. They don’t live there, they don’t visit, and they wouldn’t even think about it if it weren’t for the fact that even in more peaceful times, there is a terrorist attack emanating from there nearly every other day. These attacks fail more often than not, but everyone is aware that they’re incentivized by large payments (over $300 million annually) from the internationally recognized, ostensibly moderate, Palestinian government. For that reason, few will complain about the aspects of policy that keep the source of the terrorism at a further distance.

Terrorism isnt only a result of Palestinian actions but also a result of settler actions. "far left" organizations like B'tselem record these terrorist attacks for years but the majority of Israelies dont care. For example some days ago a 59 year old woman went to harvest and was shot dead by someone wearing military uniform(probably settler)

A Palestinian Family Goes to Pick Olives. It Ends in an Execution by Israeli Soldiers - Israel News - Haaretz.com

Have we learned who shot dead that woman? Is he going to prosecuted? Of course not. If a settler can murder a civilian without feel threatened that he is going to be prosecuted, imagine how the palestinians live in constant terror

[PointOfViewGun]

Probably because Israel has been destroying south Lebanon unrelated to its fight against Hezbollah. Lebanese government can't be see to cooperate with Israel at this point. If Israel spent half the resources it used to prop up Hamas on Lebanese government to turn it into an ally it would have a safe and secure border to the north.

[sumskilz]

Probably because Israel has been destroying south Lebanon unrelated to its fight against Hezbollah.

I gather you think that massive tunnel detonation with obvious secondary explosions is unrelated to Israel’s war against Hezbollah. It’s alright, judging by the voiceover, I don’t think CBS News understood what it is either. Unless they just liked the dramatic visual and didn’t care.

[PointOfViewGun]

I gather you think that massive tunnel detonation with obvious secondary explosions is unrelated to Israel’s war against Hezbollah. It’s alright, judging by the voiceover, I don’t think CBS News understood what it is either. Unless they just liked the dramatic visual and didn’t care.

Is it one of those cases where if you squint your eyes enough you're gonna see tunnels everywhere? Any and all explosions, whether they're from gas tanks or other sources, somehow always turn out to be rocket pileups? That narrative might be vaguely plausible for Gaza but a remote village on a hill? Not really.

[sumskilz]

Is it one of those cases where if you squint your eyes enough you're gonna see tunnels everywhere? Any and all explosions, whether they're from gas tanks or other sources, somehow always turn out to be rocket pileups? That narrative might be vaguely plausible for Gaza but a remote village on a hill? Not really.

That’s the village Mhaibib, it’s about a kilometer from the Israeli border, in a strategic position overlooking the Hula Valley. It was obviously not an airstrike. Even in the edited clip, you can hear the IDF engineers that set the charges. Nobody knowledgeable disputes that Hezbollah has (or had) a massive tunnel network along the border. In fact, it’s always been a major talking point for those claiming that Israel won’t be able to accomplish anything in Lebanon. There has been tons of pictures and footage published of the tunnels that Israel has captured before they detonate them, they’ve even been toured by foreign journalists. The IDF literally published the clip used in the CBS News video you posted, so they were obviously not trying to hide anything.











Inside Hezbollah’s tunnels: Journalists tour underground stronghold

[PointOfViewGun]

That’s the village Mhaibib, it’s about a kilometer from the Israeli border, in a strategic position overlooking the Hula Valley. It was obviously not an airstrike. Even in the edited clip, you can hear the IDF engineers that set the charges. Nobody knowledgeable disputes that Hezbollah has (or had) a massive tunnel network along the border. In fact, it’s always been a major talking point for those claiming that Israel won’t be able to accomplish anything in Lebanon. There has been tons of pictures and footage published of the tunnels that Israel has captured before they detonate them, they’ve even been toured by foreign journalists. The IDF literally published the clip used in the CBS News video you posted, so they were obviously not trying to hide anything.

Inside Hezbollah’s tunnels: Journalists tour underground stronghold

Over 2 kms but whose counting. I didn't present that example as an airstrike. The Israeli soldiers posted themselves celebrating the detonation of he entirety of the village. There is no footage of any tunnels under Mhaibib. The detonation footage of Mhaibib footage indicates surface detonation as opposed to sub-surface detonation. What's more interesting is that all the YouTube examples of tunnels you could present in your post indicate that these tunnels are not under population centres as we are supposed to believe.

Since you said that foreign journalists have toured these tunnels before they were detonated, which foreign journalist toured the tunnels under Mhaibib?

[chriscase]

Reopened.

Please remember the Mudpit Rules, in particular:

Rule #1 Excerpt

Debate in good faith and respect other members.

as well as

Rule #2 Excerpt

Address the argument, do not attack the person. Debates should be as detached and impersonal as possible. Do not post in such a manner that would elicit a strong, emotional response if possible.

and don't forget

Rule #4 Excerpt

Do not post images or videos without some clear supporting text discussion. Examples of supporting discussion include: who is the author of the video and what his/her viewpoint is and why you think it is important.

Personal references are off topic and violate the Terms of Service.

[PointOfViewGun]

Several suspects arrested amid probe of PM’s office over alleged classified intel leak

According to Channel 12 news, the war aim in question was related to a potential hostage deal, with its report saying that suspects in the case selectively leaked and twisted Hamas documents obtained by the IDF regarding the terror group’s strategy in the hostage talks.

The alleged leaks led to a pair of reports in the German newspaper Bild and the British outlet The Jewish Chronicle regarding Hamas’s strategy that were nearly identical to points made by Netanyahu in interviews and press conferences shortly beforehand, including a claim that Hamas sought to smuggle Israeli hostages out of Gaza through the Philadelphi Corridor.

A source close to one of those arrested, and who Channel 12 said was still being held, told the outlet that the individual was “thrown under the bus” by the premier.

The IDF said that the document cited by Bild was found in Gaza some five months earlier, and was not written by Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar — who has since been killed by Israeli forces — but that it was a recommendation paper drawn up by a mid-level Hamas officer.

There is no limit to how much manipulation Netanyahu is willing to create. Yet, we still have people taking his word as gospel.

[sumskilz]

Since you said that foreign journalists have toured these tunnels before they were detonated, which foreign journalist toured the tunnels under Mhaibib?

Al Jazeera’s caption of the video you linked:

Israeli forces detonated a massive amount of explosives in the Lebanese village of Mhaibib, saying they were targeting underground Hezbollah “terrorist infrastructure.”

There are a lot of videos of different Hezbollah tunnels and of foreign journalists touring them. They rarely give the specific location.

In my last post, I linked an article written by a foreign journalist who toured “the vast Hezbollah tunnel system built below the Shiite village of Rab El Thalathine.” Your assertion was that it isn’t even “vaguely plausible” that Hezbollah would have a tunnel under a border village on the heights overlooking Israel. In other words, the journalist describes exactly what you indignantly dismissed as not even “vaguely plausible”.

Hezbollah has been launching anti-tank missiles and rockets from those heights into Israel for over a year. The range of the Iranian-made anti-tank missiles Hezbollah uses is 3.5 to 3.75 km, depending on the variant. The maximum range of their rockets varies from 10 to 300 km, depending on the type.

Rab El Thalathine in the upper left, Mhaibib in the lower left. They appear to both be a very similar distance to the de-facto border:



EDIT: The elevation of the top of the hill in Mhaibib is 735 meters. The average in the area is 622 m. Whereas, the average elevation of the Hula Valley in Israel is just 70 m.

[Ludicus]

Israel's 'generals' plan' to clear Palestinians from north of ...

Make no mistake, [the generals’ plan] is a war crime, and it runs contrary to UN Security Council decision 2334, which states that land may not be taken through force, referring to acts of war.

Israel has created 'apocalyptic' conditions in northern Gaza ...

The leaders of 15 United Nations (UN) agencies and humanitarian organisations have warned "the situation unfolding in northern Gaza is apocalyptic”.

World must act to prevent 'ethnic cleansing' of Gaza António Guterres warns

There has been broad international condemnation of Tuesday’s bombing of a five-storey residential building in Beit Lahiya, in which there were many children among the 93 fatalities. The US called it “a horrifying incident with a horrifying result” and on Wednesday the French foreign ministry said it condemned the bombing and “recent Israeli strikes on hospitals in the north”.

“The siege imposed on north Gaza must be ended immediately,” the French statement said.

US pushes Israel for answers following 'horrifying' Gaza airstrike..

..."horrifying incident with a horrifying result."...A spokesperson for UNICEF said the loss of UNRWA “would likely see the collapse of the humanitarian system in Gaza.”

They keep saying the same thing repeatedly, but they do nothing. Sooner or later, the US will be dragged into a war with Iran by Israel.

Most Americans Want to Stop Arming Israel. Politicians Don’t Care.

The number of Americans opposed to sending arms to Israel has grown, month after month, as the brutal war on Gaza grinds on.

[Papay]

(243) Fifty children killed in Gaza’s Jabalia after Israeli strikes, UN says | BBC News - YouTube

A typical day in Gaza were IDF massacres 50 children. Its, of course, no coincidense since Bibi wants to annex Northern Gaza. But what to do with the civilians? Israelis have the same problem Nazis did. When Nazis gave order to the Germans to start shooting women and children many of them refused or had pcycological problems. So they had to invent "modern" industrial ways to carry on the massacres. Bombing is the IDF way

[sumskilz]

(243) Fifty children killed in Gaza’s Jabalia after Israeli strikes, UN says | BBC News - YouTube

A typical day in Gaza were IDF massacres 50 children. Its, of course, no coincidense since Bibi wants to annex Northern Gaza. But what to do with the civilians? Israelis have the same problem Nazis did. When Nazis gave order to the Germans to start shooting women and children many of them refused or had pcycological problems. So they had to invent "modern" industrial ways to carry on the massacres. Bombing is the IDF way

There would be no reason to risk Israeli soldiers in a ground incursion or waste money on expensive air strikes if the goal was simply to kill people indiscriminately. Israel has plenty of artillery shells and the IDF’s self-propelled howitzers can hit almost anywhere in Gaza from the safety of Israel.

[Papay]

There would be no reason to risk Israeli soldiers in a ground incursion or waste money on expensive air strikes if the goal was simply to kill people indiscriminately. Israel has plenty of artillery shells and the IDF’s self-propelled howitzers can hit almost anywhere in Gaza from the safety of Israel.

I see. IDF tries to find ways to massacre children with cheap ways and if that fails then we demolish building blocks with airstrikes. A great and ethical war of genocide.

[PointOfViewGun]

Al Jazeera’s caption of the video you linked:
There are a lot of videos of different Hezbollah tunnels and of foreign journalists touring them. They rarely give the specific location.
In my last post, I linked an article written by a foreign journalist who toured “the vast Hezbollah tunnel system built below the Shiite village of Rab El Thalathine.” Your assertion was that it isn’t even “vaguely plausible” that Hezbollah would have a tunnel under a border village on the heights overlooking Israel. In other words, the journalist describes exactly what you indignantly dismissed as not even “vaguely plausible”.
Hezbollah has been launching anti-tank missiles and rockets from those heights into Israel for over a year. The range of the Iranian-made anti-tank missiles Hezbollah uses is 3.5 to 3.75 km, depending on the variant. The maximum range of their rockets varies from 10 to 300 km, depending on the type.
Rab El Thalathine in the upper left, Mhaibib in the lower left. They appear to both be a very similar distance to the de-facto border:

Is Al Jazeera citing what Israeli army says equal foreign journalists visiting the tunnels under Mhaibib? I also never really dismissed the idea of having tunnels under villages in its entirety. That's your invention. I merely pointed out the absurdity of your automatic judgment you chose to pass without an inch of evidence. The case of Rab El Thalathine, if not staged, is actually an evidence to the contrary to your claims on Mhaibib. The explosion patterns are vastly different with one initiating underground unrelated to structures above and the other is simply a series of surface explosions covering practically every building. Does tunnels make it legitimate to blow up them with large ordinances? Nope. Clearly, weapons located inside them are safe enough that journalists can approach them. They could be removed. This is not destruction in pursuit of dismantling Hezbollah infrastructure but destruction for the sake of destruction.

[sumskilz]

I see. IDF tries to find ways to massacre children with cheap ways and if that fails then we demolish building blocks with airstrikes.

Obviously that never happened, and it’s hard to imagine a more incoherent non-sequitur.

Artillery wouldn’t even have been the least expensive way to bring down buildings and cause mass casualties. The Syrians, for example, dropped more than 80,000 barrel bombs on their own cities, which cost next to nothing to manufacture and produce explosions like this (and that that’s without any secondary explosions from enemy ordnance):

[Papay]

Obviously that never happened, and it’s hard to imagine a more incoherent non-sequitur.

Artillery wouldn’t even have been the least expensive way to bring down buildings and cause mass casualties. The Syrians, for example, dropped more than 80,000 barrel bombs on their own cities, which cost next to nothing to manufacture and produce explosions like this (and that that’s without any secondary explosions from enemy ordnance):

Never happened? Now thats a good joke. Some days ago IDF massacred more than 100 people by demolishing a building in Bheit Lahia. The atrocity was so big that USA condemned it(yeah, we have elections you know...)and IDF was forced to say that there was a "spotter" on the roof(whatever that means). So in order to kill a "spotter" you massacred 100 women and children. Lets face it, Israel wants to ethnically cleanse the area. Unfortunatelly for Israel Palestinians didnt abandon their homes(they cant go anywhere). So IDF uses plan b which is to massacre anyone who lives there

[Ludicus]

Today, the Palestinian right to self-determination is well recognized. The Palestinian resistance is a child of reality: the expulsion of the Palestinians from their land in 1948 and their subsequent gradual elimination by Israeli occupation and oppression

[Papay]

Israel has banned UNRWA which is the organization that basically feeds Palestinians in Gaza and West Bank. Considering that Israeli economy is on downwards spirall who is going to feed Palestinians? Will Israelis pay from their pocket? We all know what Israel wants to do here

[chriscase]

Discussion of how to characterize Israeli action in Gaza has been moved here. Any argument, counter-argument, evidence, etc. on the specific topic of the Israeli state purportedly committing "genocide", "ethnic cleansing" or the like will no longer be considered on topic in this thread.

More general discussion of the Hamas attack and its consequences may continue in this thread. If a particular tangent becomes worthy of dedicated discussion, moderation may, at its discretion, split that topic off into its own thread.

[NorseThing]

Papay: I am not certain where you want to go with your post, but the problem with the UN is that hiring a massive number of people within Gaza is a guarantee that they are hiring terrorists or perhaps close family members of terrorists. The media then quotes from these biased sources as if it were gospel (pardon the pun). Israel wants this to stop and the UN seems to happy with the way things are, but Israel is going to have the final say.