Greece - elections and shocking allegations of casting off Migrants at the sea

[alhoon]

Tomorrow are the Greek elections. A recent tragedy is looming over the elections and the most possible result is that no party will win outright which would mean a coalition government. Coalition governments are not as stable in Greece as they are in Western and Northern Europe. We kinda don't play well together.

But this is not the only issue:
https://in-cyprus.philenews.com/news...grants-at-sea/

A new video by the NYT claims that a bunch of our police, despicably cast off a bunch of migrants. Put them on a raft and cut them loose in the sea. This is horrific.

I honestly don't know what to vote tomorrow. The large parties are full of thieves. The minor parties are full of madmen.
Government ineptitude had led to one of the greatest rail disasters in our history. The previous government's ineptitude led to a huge fire that killed a bunch of people. And now, the far right that we thought was receding apparently has enough of a clout to boldly kick out infant children in the sea without mercy.

Things are bad and honestly, with the elections looming and the new government, this crime will probably be sidelined. If ND (rightwings) win without a clear enough margin to govern alone, they may align with some far-right party to form a coalition. Which will lead to more of such things.

Shameful.
A country of 12 million people, birthplace of Democracy and our choices are all bad.

[Kyriakos]

I doubt I will vote. If I was to vote, I'd choose Varoufakis. That said, even at the very best scenario for him, he will be at 10% - not enough to form any government.
The two main parties (and another one, which used to be major but now is not) shouldn't even exist, in my view.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

@Alhoon You should vote ND, as it fit the most with your conservative world view. If you don't vote you make the far right even stronger , as their supporters will vote in any case. Hopefully Syriza supporters vote Syriza too, so that ND can't rule without Syriza.

A big coalition is in such cases the best option.

[Alastor]

Right, the Greek election is today. I find it hard to care. As far as I can tell there is no credible option and I'm tired of elections that are about the least bad option. Don't get me wrong, this isn't limited to Greece, it's generally a sign of the degeneration of representative democracy as a system across the west. But I guess those characters in Greece seem to be extra worthless. Heh, I suppose why not. It is sort of poetic that the so-called birthplace of democracy is leading the way towards its agonizing demise.

[Coughdrop addict]

It's good that such a thing still shocks you alhoon. In my country they are trying to make it illegal to provide medical care to migrants no matter the situation or age. And some argue to make it a felony to provide them with water, or that they should not have any legal protections against rape, enslavement, or murder.

[alhoon]

@Alhoon You should vote ND, as it fit the most with your conservative world view.

No they don't. They are a group of idiots, glorified book-salesmen and cleptocrats. Sure, they supposedly espouse conservative values but it is more a farce than a reality. This is my country, Morticia. I actually have to put my vote where my mouth is this time, and there are more important things than the party paying lip service to "conservative values" as they mismanage everything and steal what remains.

I voted for the "Union of Centrists", a party headed by a stupid clown surrounded by idiots. No thieves, fascists, radicals or criminals. Thus, the least bad party I could find and he will probably not even get in the parliament. If he gets in, he could be persuaded to join a government because, as I said, he's an idiot and he will actually think he can do stuff, the idiot. But at least, he's just stupid.

The other alternative was, honestly... communists. One of the small communist parties. Radicals with crazy and dangerous ideas I disagree with. But that wouldn't get close to any decision making. But I cannot in good conscience vote for parties that don't believe in borders and are authoritarians unwilling to compromise thinking they are right and everyone else is wrong.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Its your country, you must know best, which party is the most credible one.

From my party affilation i would have voted PASOK-Kinal, but thats just me.

At least Mr Androulakis has revealed the espionage affair.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikos_Androulakis

[alhoon]

Greek source https://www.haniotika-nea.gr/pente-s...s-diadikasias/ but:
Long story short, there are already 5 people arrested over voting fraud. Late last night, 5 Greeks were arrested around Karditsa. These guys were found with 197 fake ID documents, passports, 114 sealed envelopes with cards of a specific candidate, 5 votes for the candidate (in each envelope, for 570 votes) and €‎6060.

This source has more info (but I consider it less reliable):
https://www.huffingtonpost.gr/entry/...b06749be146f7b

In short: 197 fake votes and the rest of the votes and much of the money, were bribes for people (20 euro) to go vote for that candidate, with the votes already prepared in advance. The IDs were obviously for people that didn't have the right to vote and the passports for the criminals to escape abroad.

@Morticia: Chances are the candidate bribing people to vote for him 197 times was ND candidate.

EDIT: It was SYRIZA (the opposition) after all.

[Morticia Iunia Bruti]

Thats bad, thats banana republic/russian style.

[Kyriakos]

You can thank the austerity and debt-colonization, this used to be a first world country.

[Gyrosmeister]

Tomorrow are the Greek elections. A recent tragedy is looming over the elections and the most possible result is that no party will win outright which would mean a coalition government. Coalition governments are not as stable in Greece as they are in Western and Northern Europe. We kinda don't play well together.

But this is not the only issue:
https://in-cyprus.philenews.com/news...grants-at-sea/

A new video by the NYT claims that a bunch of our police, despicably cast off a bunch of migrants. Put them on a raft and cut them loose in the sea. This is horrific.

I honestly don't know what to vote tomorrow. The large parties are full of thieves. The minor parties are full of madmen.
Government ineptitude had led to one of the greatest rail disasters in our history. The previous government's ineptitude led to a huge fire that killed a bunch of people. And now, the far right that we thought was receding apparently has enough of a clout to boldly kick out infant children in the sea without mercy.

Things are bad and honestly, with the elections looming and the new government, this crime will probably be sidelined. If ND (rightwings) win without a clear enough margin to govern alone, they may align with some far-right party to form a coalition. Which will lead to more of such things.

Shameful.
A country of 12 million people, birthplace of Democracy and our choices are all bad.

NYT, same author that had written a similar piece a few years back and was forced to take it down, we have heard this before. https://twitter.com/e_amyna/status/1659662964436156421

And you consider a party that has gone full in on the woke train (ND) right wing? Their economy is all out socialist with handing out benefits left right and centre.

[Gyrosmeister]

Greek source https://www.haniotika-nea.gr/pente-s...s-diadikasias/ but:
Long story short, there are already 5 people arrested over voting fraud. Late last night, 5 Greeks were arrested around Karditsa. These guys were found with 197 fake ID documents, passports, 114 sealed envelopes with cards of a specific candidate, 5 votes for the candidate (in each envelope, for 570 votes) and €‎6060.

This source has more info (but I consider it less reliable):
https://www.huffingtonpost.gr/entry/...b06749be146f7b

In short: 197 fake votes and the rest of the votes and much of the money, were bribes for people (20 euro) to go vote for that candidate, with the votes already prepared in advance. The IDs were obviously for people that didn't have the right to vote and the passports for the criminals to escape abroad.

@Morticia: Chances are the candidate bribing people to vote for him 197 times was ND candidate.

https://www.news247.gr/ekloges/thess....10050694.html

and turns out these were SYRIZA guys, not ND.

[alhoon]

And you consider a party that has gone full in on the woke train (ND) right wing? Their economy is all out socialist with handing out benefits left right and centre.

I didn't say they are a real rightwing party, Gyro.
Furthermore, their economy is NOT socialist. Not even post-1985 PASOK or even 2nd-term-SYRIZA had socialist economy.
The strategy of passing popular laws and handing out benefits before the elections (effectively the government buying votes by handing out money to segments of society) is not rightwing nor leftwing policy. It's how we do business here in the birthplace of democracy.

[Gyrosmeister]

I didn't say they are a real rightwing party, Gyro.
Furthermore, their economy is NOT socialist. Not even post-1985 PASOK or even 2nd-term-SYRIZA had socialist economy.
The strategy of passing popular laws and handing out benefits before the elections (effectively the government buying votes by handing out money to segments of society) is not rightwing nor leftwing policy. It's how we do business here in the birthplace of democracy.

So having a ed up private sector with an incredible high corporate tax, and instead of lowering various taxes to reduce the burden, they hand out benefits and emergency payments etc so that people depend on the father state is not socialist policy, but liberal capitalism.
And yes, I am well aware that this is how politics work in Greece, people will vote for whichever guy gives them the most money

[alhoon]

So having a ed up private sector with an incredible high corporate tax, and instead of lowering various taxes to reduce the burden, they hand out benefits and emergency payments etc so that people depend on the father state is not socialist policy, but liberal capitalism.
And yes, I am well aware that this is how politics work in Greece, people will vote for whichever guy gives them the most money

The ####ed up private sector has a very high corporate tax... for the small businesses. The big names enjoy low taxes with the ND government consistently increasing the margins for profits and lowering their taxes. Also, even for the small businesses, ND did lower the taxes. They are still too high but not as high as they were with SYRIZA.

[Nebaki]

Looks like it is over and Miço (Mitsotakis) did it again

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[alhoon]

Back to the migrant ships:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...H2Iuway4vj58wE

One of the greatest disasters with nearly 100 dead! In an effort to gear up for the next elections that are in 10 days, the PM put Greece on mourning for 3 days. There are accusations as to why the Coastal Guard couldn't save these people or at least more of these people flying around.

[Gyrosmeister]

Back to the migrant ships:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europ...H2Iuway4vj58wE

One of the greatest disasters with nearly 100 dead! In an effort to gear up for the next elections that are in 10 days, the PM put Greece on mourning for 3 days. There are accusations as to why the Coastal Guard couldn't save these people or at least more of these people flying around.

So you have a ship sailing from Tobruk on a course to Italy that shouldn't have sailed in its state to begin with, it sank 47 nautical miles away from Greek coasts, aka international waters, and the ship itself allegedly denied any help from the Hellenic Coast Guard.
Tell me, why is this Greece's problem?
The criminals are the ones who put these migrants on those ing ruins of boats to begin with.

https://www.naftemporiki.gr/society/...a-to-limeniko/

[alhoon]

So you have a ship sailing from Tobruk on a course to Italy that shouldn't have sailed in its state to begin with, it sank 47 nautical miles away from Greek coasts, aka international waters, and the ship itself allegedly denied any help from the Hellenic Coast Guard.
Tell me, why is this Greece's problem?
The criminals are the ones who put these migrants on those ing ruins of boats to begin with.

https://www.naftemporiki.gr/society/...a-to-limeniko/

It is a problem of Greece because this happened just 47 miles from our coasts. Because kids and innocent people died. The Coast Guard should have helped more.
Every major and modest political party realizes that Gyro, thus the 3 days of mourning.

[Gyrosmeister]

It is a problem of Greece because this happened just 47 miles from our coasts. Because kids and innocent people died. The Coast Guard should have helped more.
Every major and modest political party realizes that Gyro, thus the 3 days of mourning.

The ship refused any help from the Coast Guard and wanted to continue sailing to Italy. A ship that wasn't fit for sea in the first place, especially with 700 people in it. It should have stayed in Tobruk