The not-so-bygone days of the state taking children from their parents because government knows better

[alhoon]

In a different site, someone brought to my attention this.

This is too bizarre to contemplate from a Western country but if the source is correct...
"SB254 — which one former lawmaker has called "fascist" legislation — would allow the state to rip children from their parents when they are "at risk" or "subjected" to gender-affirming health care. The bill is written so that even a child of Floridian parents living out of state could trigger the law."



Reminder: I am a conservative. I do think there should be more checks and balances before we put kids to dangerous hormonal changes.
However... the government taking kids from their families? Seriously? In the 21st century?

I thought the days of the government taking kids from "inadequate" families to raise them better has ended when the cultural genocide of the Native Americans ended with the Indian Child Welfare Act in the 70s!

Anyway, my point of view is: I believe it is inhumane and unethical (and probably unconstitutional and illegal to boot) for the government to take kids from their families not because they are mistreated but because the government disagrees with how those kids are being raised.
It is mind-boggling.
Furthermore, it is VERY short-sighted from the Christiano-fascists that pushed for such an abominable legislation! When the shoe is in the other foot? When Progressives take control of Florida? What if they use this as a precedent to pass a law that takes children from their parents because the parents are deemed too racists? Or too homophobic?


Last but not least, this was brought to you by people that officially support:
- small government that doesn't over-reach and tells them how to live their lives.
- guns will stop the government from becoming tyrannical and doing fascist crap like taking children from their families.

I would like to discuss how people view this development, whether there is any argument I have overlooked in favor of the government taking kids away because it disagrees with the parents and not because they are mistreated (and no two wrongs don't make a right) and where can we expect the USA to go from here.
Furthermore, I would like to know if such a law could stand by the courts or they will shoot it down.

I didn't think we would get that far in the 21st century. I really didn't.

[conon394]

It seems draconian and probably illegal declaring a blanket class of people for removal. Nobody I think denies the state the right to acti in individual cases (on a case by case basis) of abuse of children (or even animals) to take away children from their families. But this does smack of the Indian policy. Are there going to be nice boarding homes for these kids. Will they get beaten if they still profess to want gender altering therapy?

When is the next bill for taking kids from parents who their kids in Football programs and expose them the potential of a life series of head injuries culminating in CTE and live long debilitating brain injuries? Its also darky amusing that republicans would pass this legislation while they at the state level are rush to remove child labor laws and are happy with little Timmy going off to work with hazardous materials or in the slaughter house - i'm sure pushing mining carts with their heads will follow. Or in other states refusing to pass universal free school lunch and breakfast funding. But I guess if Timmy is safe from trans gender therapy, and has after school roofing job at 14 he can pay for his own lunch.

In any case it does look like overreach. On the one hand Florida is so Gerrymandered the super majority in the government is in no danger and attacking trans people plays well with the republican base. But it seems really short sighted in terms of how it affects the Republican's brand in purple states.

What if they use this as a precedent to pass a law that takes children from their parents because the parents are deemed too racists? Or too homophobic?

Given he plummeting rate rate of young people identifying as religious you might add too Evangelical.

[Cyclops]

...Nobody I think denies the state the right to acti in individual cases (on a case by case basis) of abuse of children (or even animals) to take away children from their families. But this does smack of the Indian policy...

As usual you nailed it. Hyperspecific sectional prescription as performative "conservatism", they open the door for smokers or circumcisors to have their kids seized.

Exhausting to read the clouds of bulldust in some US states.

[Lord Thesaurian]

OP suggests child sterilization is a unique cultural or ethnic tradition comparable to Native American identity? I’ve heard transgenderism compared to a religion but that’s new.

Sections 1 and 2 of the bill amend child abuse statute(s) to include children subjected to sex reassignment. Common sense, obviously, because sterilizing a child is as at least as abusive as neglect or physical abuse which are already grounds for the state to intervene. The US doesn’t really do orphanages. The usual foster care system would be involved here, or the state would reallocate custody to a family member. Nothing new here.

The remainder of the legislation relates to prohibition on using state funds for sex reassignment, and sets rules for how medical professionals and organizations can conduct and are liable for sex reassignment procedures.

If this bill is “fascist,” so is the very concept of state intervention in child abuse cases. Fake leftist outrage at its finest.

[alhoon]

OP suggests child sterilization is a unique cultural or ethnic tradition comparable to Native American identity?

No, the OP suggests that the government taking kids from their parents because they disagree with how they are raised, even when they are not abused, is horrendous government over-reach and he also suggests that this is dangerous for the teens as well.
A boy that is allowed to dress as a girl is not sterilized, FYI.

The OP, an anti-woke conservative, is also annoyed to be bundled with leftwings because he expresses concern and outrage over the government forcefully taking kids from their parents.

Furthermore, the OP wonders how LT (or other conservatives) would react if the government started to go to homes of 2nd-amendment enthusiasts and told them that they have too many guns and thus, the government is taking their kids and placing them in foster homes, away from their dangerous guns as guns are the #1 reason for children death.

Guns [...] killed 4,357 children (ages 1-19 years old) in the United States in 2020, or roughly 5.6 per 100,000 children.

https://www.technavio.com/report/gen...16%20in%202019.

"According to the 2020 Plastic Surgery Statistics provided by the ASPS, trans females had 6,368 gender confirmation surgeries performed in the US" <=== Children and adults

Soooo... in 2020, the 'sterilized' kids were about as many as kids killed by guns. I believe Legio should totally support taking kids from those dangerous monsters that have guns in their houses, since a dead kid will not procreate.

Are there going to be nice boarding homes for these kids. Will they get beaten if they still profess to want gender altering therapy?

Boarding homes? Beatings if they still want to change their gender?
For someone in a Total War Game forum, you have a bit limited imagination. I think there has been a better solution...

[Lord Thesaurian]

A boy that is allowed to dress as a girl is not sterilized, FYI.

Did you read the bill?

Soooo... in 2020, the 'sterilized' kids were about as many as kids killed by guns. I believe Legio should totally support taking kids from those dangerous monsters that have guns in their houses, since a dead kid will not procreate.

In Florida, both child negligence and child endangerment are felony crimes. Leaving a loaded weapon out or accessible to children is also a crime. Even if the weapon is put away, if the owner knows or reasonably should know that the child could potentially access the weapon, they can be charged. While it is not illegal to own guns concurrently with children living in the residence, parents or relatives must secure weapons at all times and keep ammunition and weapons in two separate, locked devices, closets, or safes.

When a minor accesses a loaded firearm, the owner can be charged with a second degree misdemeanor. When the minor accesses the loaded gun, discharges it, and shoots and injures (or fatally injures) themselves or another, the charges to the gun owner are elevated to a felony. The Florida Department of Children and Families does investigate any time a child is involved in an incident or crime concerning weapons, violence or homicide. Their website offers resources to parents and caregivers about child safety. Investigations are launched to protect the welfare and safety of the child.

https://www.wallsheinlaw.com/child-n...ws-in-florida/

[alhoon]

Touche, Legio, Touche...

That was a bad example from my part as indeed, leaving guns out can lead to jail-time.
But the point I am trying to make is that it is great over-reach.

[Infidel144]

Did you read the bill?

That would involve some work, and would not allow for stupidly pathetic whataboutery...

[Lord Thesaurian]

Touche, Legio, Touche...

That was a bad example from my part as indeed, leaving guns out can lead to jail-time.
But the point I am trying to make is that it is great over-reach.

I’m not trying to play gotcha. It just seems like you haven’t read the bill. It specifies what is meant by sex reassignment. Things like chemical sterilization, hormone treatments, surgery. Specifically excluded are treatments for intersex conditions and other developmental disorders, for injury or disease, or for the purposes of helping someone detransition. If someone injects their kid with hard drugs and maims them with a knife, any normal person would consider that child abuse and send anyone responsible to prison. It’s only because we live in clown world this has to be spelled out.

[alhoon]

I’m not trying to play gotcha. It just seems like you haven’t read the bill. It specifies what is meant by sex reassignment. Things like chemical sterilization, hormone treatments, surgery. Specifically excluded are treatments for intersex conditions and other developmental disorders, for injury or disease, or for the purposes of helping someone detransition. If someone injects their kid with hard drugs and maims them with a knife, any normal person would consider that child abuse and send anyone responsible to prison. It’s only because we live in clown world this has to be specifically spelled out.

Well, I have not read the bill but I have read the articles about that bill. Also "hormone treatments" are not sterilization although I do not condone it. Furthermore, while this is not always the case, in some cases gender dysphoria could be so bad for the teens that they will try to KILL THEMSELVES. The parent has the tough decision to make on whether to give them dangerous drugs OR risk them killing themselves.
It is not a decision the GOVERNMENT should make for the parents.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Well, I have not read the bill but I have read the articles about that bill. Also "hormone treatments" are not sterilization although I do not condone it. Furthermore, while this is not always the case, in some cases gender dysphoria could be so bad for the teens that they will try to KILL THEMSELVES. The parent has the tough decision to make on whether to give them dangerous drugs OR risk them killing themselves.

There’s no conclusive evidence for this, let alone weighed against the lifelong health risks posed by sex reassignment. Children diagnosed with gender dysphoria also have a range of other conditions, from autism to depression, which may predispose them to suicide. There’s no conclusive evidence sex reassignment surgery improves mental health, and individuals who’ve undergone surgery are more likely to commit suicide and/or suffer mental health problems. Chemical sterilization drugs, touted by apologists as a “safe” way for kids to experiment with their sexuality, are also linked to depression and self harm. Same goes for hormone treatment.

When weighed against these risks, the false dichotomy of “transition or suicide” looks all the more ridiculous. Yet when it comes to doing sex changes on kids, such absurdity somehow becomes imperative. In any case, these risks also demonstrate the state has the same interest in intervening on behalf of a child who is or will undergo sex reassignment as it does in removing kids from other kinds of abuse.

[alhoon]

While you make some valid points, all those "no conclusive evidence" or "linked to" etc etc. are things a parent should take into account. And if the parent reached decision A, whether that is to approve transition or not, the state should not interfere.
LT, it is exactly the same with the state taking kids from parents that don't agree to transition drugs. The state should not interfere and the state should assume they know better than the parent.
You and I may disagree with a parent's decision (I believe in most cases psychologists should be involved to help the teen accept the body he or she was given) ... it is not the state's decision to make. It goes too deep inside the house. Government SHOULD NOT have the right to make these decisions for the parents.

[Lord Thesaurian]

LT, it is exactly the same with the state taking kids from parents that don't agree to transition drugs. The state should not interfere and the state should assume they know better than the parent.

It’s not the same, because no state has yet criminalized failure to abuse kids. I understand the media is biased (the article in the OP consisted entirely of comments from critics of the legislation and no coverage of the legislation itself) but there’s nothing of substance here to be upset about, apart from the state of modern “journalism.”

[Coughdrop addict]

In a different site, someone brought to my attention this.

This is too bizarre to contemplate from a Western country but if the source is correct...
"SB254 — which one former lawmaker has called "fascist" legislation — would allow the state to rip children from their parents when they are "at risk" or "subjected" to gender-affirming health care. The bill is written so that even a child of Floridian parents living out of state could trigger the law."



Reminder: I am a conservative. I do think there should be more checks and balances before we put kids to dangerous hormonal changes.
However... the government taking kids from their families? Seriously? In the 21st century?

I thought the days of the government taking kids from "inadequate" families to raise them better has ended when the cultural genocide of the Native Americans ended with the Indian Child Welfare Act in the 70s!

Anyway, my point of view is: I believe it is inhumane and unethical (and probably unconstitutional and illegal to boot) for the government to take kids from their families not because they are mistreated but because the government disagrees with how those kids are being raised.
It is mind-boggling.
Furthermore, it is VERY short-sighted from the Christiano-fascists that pushed for such an abominable legislation! When the shoe is in the other foot? When Progressives take control of Florida? What if they use this as a precedent to pass a law that takes children from their parents because the parents are deemed too racists? Or too homophobic?


Last but not least, this was brought to you by people that officially support:
- small government that doesn't over-reach and tells them how to live their lives.
- guns will stop the government from becoming tyrannical and doing fascist crap like taking children from their families.

I would like to discuss how people view this development, whether there is any argument I have overlooked in favor of the government taking kids away because it disagrees with the parents and not because they are mistreated (and no two wrongs don't make a right) and where can we expect the USA to go from here.
Furthermore, I would like to know if such a law could stand by the courts or they will shoot it down.

I didn't think we would get that far in the 21st century. I really didn't.

There's a reason we call Florida Mini Russia. Like his hero in the Kremlin, Desantis is kidnapping kids.

Some earlier versions of the bill were even more outrageous and would have basically legalized a parent violating the custody agreement of another state and taking the child to Florida if they alleged the kid would become trans otherwise.

I wonder how long until Republicans ditch all pretenses and start allowing even non-family members or total strangers to snatch children from their beds in other states as long as they can make it to Florida and then alleged the kid was at risk of becoming trans?

[alhoon]

It’s not the same, because no state has yet criminalized failure to abuse kids.

According to many people's opinion, Florida just did. Again, what I am saying is that you (and to a degree, so do I) consider feeding puberty blockers to 14 years olds as bad. Many parents disagree. And there are downsides from taking such at risk kids from their families and trying to change their way of life. A Teenager that is 14 years old and consents to be given these drugs after his or her parents get the kid to a doctor that after 5-6 sessions diagnoses dysphoria are in way abusing their kid. In my opinion they pick the wrong approach, but this is my opinion about a very important matter in their family.
I don't understand why you claim that a teenager that medical professionals after several sessions (and not charlatans that do it after 1 short interview) suggest to be put on hormones is abused.

I will go with a different example: A kid in the house of chain smokers. That kid's body takes as dangerous chemicals as the other kid. But there's no doctor behind this and no reason to.


I clarify that I am not talking about parents that use their kids (consciously or not) to draw attention on themselves and jump to put the kids on dangerous drugs and blockers when the kids are like 9 years old after a biased doctor has a 15 minutes interview with the kid. I am talking about people that consulted with their teen and put his or her wellbeing to the front and then went to doctors that did their job and after several sessions and efforts decided the kid may need to transition in the future.
Florida will now have a bill that will take that kid from the parents because it is at risk of receiving gender-change medicine in the future. That kid will be thrown to foster families that do not know him or her and that clearly see things differently from the kids parents.

It is very cruel to those parents, it will cause the teenager to strongly resent his foster parents and it may well lead the kid to feel isolation and despair. And Florida will do that to the most "at risk" group of teens.
You said that GD comes with other conditions like Autism or depression and I think you are right. So, you are taking a kid that may already suffer from depression away from his or her parents to a new family the kid doesn't know nor they know of him or her. And don't you think this will significantly increase the chances of the kid making a suicide or setting his foster parents' house on fire or something?

[Lord Thesaurian]

I don't understand why you claim that a teenager that medical professionals after several sessions (and not charlatans that do it after 1 short interview) suggest to be put on hormones is abused.

A third party investigation would be required to ascertain the situation you propose anyway, so this is a moot point. The bill excludes from prohibition “prescriptions or procedures provided to a patient for the treatment of a physical disorder, physical injury, or physical illness that would, as certified by a licensed physician, place the individual in imminent danger of death or impairment of a major bodily function without the prescription or procedure.”

I will go with a different example: A kid in the house of chain smokers. That kid's body takes as dangerous chemicals as the other kid. But there's no doctor behind this and no reason to.

Florida law considers history of substance abuse in the home negatively impacting child welfare as a form of child harm and abuse. This is established through medical and legal investigation on a case by case basis that may result in removal under statutory procedure.

It is very cruel to those parents, it will cause the teenager to strongly resent his foster parents and it may well lead the kid to feel isolation and despair. And Florida will do that to the most "at risk" group of teens.

It’s very easy to avoid having your kids taken away in Florida. Don’t expose them to substance abuse. Don’t beat them. Don’t neglect them. Don’t feed them chemical castration drugs and hormones to change their sex. That way they won’t have to go through the trauma of being separated from their abuser(s). These abusers always have the same excuse: “It’s my kid not yours, I can do whatever I want.” In some specific cases, no, they can’t. Common sense.

[alhoon]

These abusers always have the same excuse: “It’s my kid not yours, I can do whatever I want.” In some specific cases, no, they can’t. Common sense.

Yes, common sense. And common sense says that giving puberty blockers to consenting teens after a psychologist suggested so, is not child abuse.

[Lord Thesaurian]

Yes, common sense. And common sense says that giving puberty blockers to consenting teens after a psychologist suggested so, is not child abuse.

No, it doesn’t.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

https://docs.cdn.yougov.com/bwbgbyvm...nTabReport.pdf

https://www.thetrafalgargroup.org/wp...eport-1014.pdf

[Muizer]

Geez, transgenderism ............ again. I suppose we should be happy for our American friends that they can't find anything of consequence to worry about. Clown world indeed. What's this obsession with interfering with other people's lives about? I mean, if it were up to me, I'd approve dragging kids away from parents that force their children to attend church. The indoctrination that goes on there is well known to seriously mess people up, after all. Scarred for life, many of them. I guess that's now a legit political objective.

[Cyclops]

Geez, transgenderism ............ again. I suppose we should be happy for our American friends that they can't find anything of consequence to worry about. Clown world indeed. What's this obsession with interfering with other people's lives about? I mean, if it were up to me, I'd approve dragging kids away from parents that force their children to attend church. The indoctrination that goes on there is well known to seriously mess people up, after all. Scarred for life, many of them. I guess that's now a legit political objective.

Well don't they preach about "eunuchs for Christ"? [/jk]

It's just cutting out black sheep to shriek about. Straight up bullying people for votes, like gun fearers demonizing gun owners as small dicked murderers.

"Get angry, hate your fellow citizens, vote blind, forget that many members of both parties were in bed with Epstain"

I like my allies strong, this garbage makes my ally weaker.