Netflix's Cleopatra

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

If you think that I am going to stop making references to The Bangles you are dead wrong.

[Ludicus]

Indeed, I completely agree.A little more on the subject,
Casting Cleopatra: It’s All About Politics (Part I)
Casting Cleopatra: It’s All About Politics (Part II)

Politicized, fully assumed by the production. All in all, no regrets: Netflix's 'Cleopatra' criticized in Egypt over skin color
"

We don't often get to see or hear stories about Black queens," Netflix quotes the series' producer Jada Pinkett Smith, wife of Will Smith, as saying in advance. Access to historically significant women is difficult, but important, because they "formed the backbone of African nations."

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^That is a very good TIL for me. Pessoa wrote a slogan for coca-cola...
Now I've seen everything, as they say

The result: Coca-Cola would be prohibited by the Portuguese dictatorship for allegedly create addiction.
For the Salazar regime, Coca-Cola was a kind of drug, assumed from the name, and whose toxicity the slogan of Fernando Pessoa seemed to evoke. Forbidden by the dictatorship, Coca-Cola waited almost 50 years to take root in the habits of the Portuguese.

[NorthernXY]

Haven't seen much complaining that most of the Egyptians were represented as blacks. Which is another reason Egypt hates this work of fiction. Where'd they all go? Did the Arab Muslim invasion replace them all?

[Roma_Victrix]

Haven't seen much complaining that most of the Egyptians were represented as blacks. Which is another reason Egypt hates this work of fiction. Where'd they all go? Did the Arab Muslim invasion replace them all?

This has been mentioned in this thread already (see my conversation with Sumskilz and Lord Oda Nobunaga), and while the Arts sub-forum isn't exactly the place for this conversation and more about the drama/production of TV series, we've already strayed well into the realm of archaeogenetics and Ptolemaic dynastic politics, so why not?

Sumskilz has already provided a brief summary of Egypt's genetic history, demographics, and historical population migrations going back to the Neolithic period with the Eurasian backflow event. With that being said, I'll add to it by saying it is 1,000% absurd and breaks all laws of common sense to think that the Arab Muslim Rashidun Caliphate that took Egypt from the Eastern Roman Empire in the 7th century AD systematically mass murdered, raped, or displaced all native Egyptians. Firstly, they would have never secured the province doing that or made it into an effective tax base, considering how early Islamic regimes relied on huge populations of Christians and Jews as "People of the Book" dhimmi taxpayers. Secondly, LOL, not even the 13th century Mongols who were the most notorious for mass murder and sacking cities (or the Timurids) committed a truly systematic ethnic cleansing like the German Nazi Party of the modern Third Reich. For that matter most of the native Amerindian wartime deaths in the Americas like the Aztecs were casualties of Old World diseases like chickenpox brought by the Spaniards and then other colonial Europeans who came afterwards.

The truth is that black people have basically always existed in Egypt...as a minority! The Kerma culture of ancient Sudan was conquered and assimilated by the Egyptians of the New Kingdom period by 1500 BC, but even before that the Nubians were a highly visible minority serving in the ranks of the pharaoh's army, in particular as bowmen (earning their renown for that role when the Achaemenid Persians and then Romans attempted to invade ancient Sudan). The subsequent Kingdom of Kush even managed to conquer Egypt for a century as the Nubian 25th dynasty. They continued living in Egypt afterwards, mostly in Upper Egypt, and were obviously a minority group under Ptolemaic Greek monarchs like the famous Cleopatra VII Philopator. However, despite emulating the Egyptians by building Egyptian-style pyramid tombs at Napata and Meroe, they were not truly ethnic Egyptians and retained their own Meroitic language and writing system.

So the Arab Muslim invasion didn't even replace Nubians, let alone the brown/olive native Egyptians who simply converted to Islam or remained as Orthodox Coptic Christians. The Copts still retain a liturgical Afro-Asiatic language to this day that is directly descended from Ancient Egyptian (proven after deciphering the Rosetta Stone). If anything, the Egyptian population's Sub-Saharan African DNA levels increased after the Islamic conquests due to the slave trade (as indicated by Sumskilz).

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

The director of Netflix Cleopatra, the British-Kiwi-American-Iranian, Tina Gharavi wrote "Doing the research, I realized what a political act it would be to see Cleopatra portrayed by a Black actress".

In that same article for Variety which she wrote, she stated "It is more likely that our actor looked like Cleopatra than Elizabeth Taylor ever did". But given what we know about Cleopatra this is just blatantly false.

On a side note, I saw a clip for that Netflix documentary and there is this guy who plays Antony or something. Some random white guy who looks like a disheveled trailer park meth head. By Osiris! This documentary is so low effort.

[Kyriakos]

Why aren't the romans black too? :./

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Because the Romans are White colonizers except when they are Blaque. Kinda crazy how they are even getting White people to say all this stuff in this documentary.

What I found so interesting about this documentary is how many Black people came out to say that Cleopatra wasn't Black and/or how apparently Arab colonizers is a thing all of a sudden.

Like Netflix made this trash to take a big steamy dump on Whypipo but it inadvertently caused them to attack Arabs. Honestly this is an even better outcome and frankly totally hilarious. So you could say that I actually support Netflix now. At this rate Netflix will keep hemorrhaging subscribers until it dies.

I just want to point out that this documentary has a few so called experts with PhD's. I am going to need a panel of experts to explain to me how these people have PhD's. But also there are some "experts" who are nobodies without any qualifications. No it isn't who you think actually. The intellectuals in the trailer have PhD's.

But that being said I need to point out that this is not so much a historical documentary but is instead a Black power documentary. What do I mean by this? Well other than the fact that Netflix is throwing Black power groups a bone, this is essentially religiously motivated.

No I don't mean incessant attacks by the Left, but this is part of it. I also mean that most "Black Power" groups are essentially part of a religion. For example Nation of Islam which is literally a religion, or their cousins the Hoteps which are also more or less a religion. Afrocentrism and Black Power in general are basically modern religions.

So the fact that this documentary is nonsensical or illogical is inevitable as they are catering to actual pseudo-religious groups. Don't think of it as any different than Passion of the Christ, the Ten Commandments, or God is Not Dead. Jada Plinkett Smith has become the Black Kirk Cameron. Nothing in this was supposed to be historical. It was just to assert faith in the veracity of Afrocentrist claims.

[conon394]

I just want to point out that this documentary has a few so called experts with PhD's. I am going to need a panel of experts to explain to me how these people have PhD's.

That earned your Phd as an expert in your field and likely published real peer reviewed work does not stop you from you the human self delusion of hey I'm an expert at this thing therefore I must also be an expert at many other things. Also of course HIstory is squishy. Its not a hard science (in many cases) where things can say be falsified as in OK we read your paper tried to repeat your experiment and umm you know it does not produce the results you claimed (re Cold Fusion)... The farther you go back in history the more opinion is involved. So you can sustain a career on being the outlier to some extent. To be fair there their a lot of old white guys experts in their field who pontificate on a lots as great experts at everything as well with just as baseless arguments.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

That earned your Phd as an expert in your field and likely published real peer reviewed work does not stop you from you the human self delusion of hey I'm an expert at this thing therefore I must also be an expert at many other things. Also of course HIstory is squishy. Its not a hard science (in many cases) where things can say be falsified as in OK we read your paper tried to repeat your experiment and umm you know it does not produce the results you claimed (re Cold Fusion)... The farther you go back in history the more opinion is involved. So you can sustain a career on being the outlier to some extent. To be fair there their a lot of old white guys experts in their field who pontificate on a lots as great experts at everything as well with just as baseless arguments.

I have to wonder how good their peer reviewed work is. That old lady who said "my grandma told me that Cleopatra was Black" has a PhD from the university of Syracuse. Her name is Shelley P. Haley. Apparently her dissertation was on "The Role of Amicitia in the Life of Gnaeus Pompeius Magnus". Okay sounds promising but is it any good?

If we look at her other work:
"When I Enter': Disrupting the White, Heteronormative Narrative of Librarianship" (wtf???)
"Be Not Afraid of the Dark: Critical Race Theory and Classical Studies," (the Dark??? is that intentional?)
"Black Feminist Thought and Classics: Re-membering, Re-claiming, Re-empowering" (I'm Re-fusing and Re-jecting this Re-tardation)
"The Five Wives of Pompey the Great." (but is it any good?)

She also taught a course on Cleopatra at Hamilton College. In the documentary she said that she never wanted to study Cleopatra until she finally did. So she does have some background on Cleopatra specifically, but also seems to really like Pompey Magnus as a subject. Her other work is typical Left leaning Black intellectual type of stuff. Critical Race Theory and Classical Studies... wtf? Black Feminist Thought and Classics... uh wtf???

So she is definitely about that Black Power Afrocentrist ideology. She is also a Feminist, how lovely. In the documentary she oversimplifies a lot and plays up certain aspects. If she is as knowledgeable about Cleopatra as she seems I have a hard time understanding why she chose to present the subject in the documentary in that way.

That said she was kind of being strawmanned. For example when she said that her granny told her that Cleopatra was Black and it didn't matter what the schools said. First of all I find it crazy that her granny was alive for 2000 years and still remembers what Cleopatra looked like. But in its full context they were talking about the perception of Cleopatra.

Certainly though, I have no doubt that Haley believes Cleopatra to have been Black. Why exactly? My best guess: we don't know who Cleopatra's mother and therefore two grandmothers were (her mother's mother obviously, but also her father's mother). Therefore they might have been Egyptian, and so therefore Egyptians were Black. Therefore Cleopatra could have even been 3/4 Black. That seems to be the reasoning that a lot of people are using here. Including renowned African scholar, Egyptologist, and musician Shakka Ahmose.

The other thing people bring up is that she said she had no interest in studying Cleopatra, and this is supposed to be evidence that she is not an expert on the subject. But as I said she taught a course on Cleopatra at Hamilton College and seems to know who Pompey was on top of that. So she definitely has some understanding on the subject of the Late Roman Republic at the very least. Why she presented the subject so awkwardly in the Netflix documentary is likely to be for the reason that she is interested in distorting the subject (though of course she doesn't see it that way) and wants to present Cleopatra as a Black Feminist icon.

They go to great lengths in this documentary to play up Cleopatra's importance in the grand scheme of Late Republic history. Even to the point of omitting and distorting. Also keep in mind that this is also a docudrama and that means that the portions with the actors are especially over the top and nonsensical. But written in such a way to confirm their biases and to present their narrative. For example a new trend is Afrocentric Feminism. Something which has popped up in the past decade and which is promoted by influential Black women like Dr. Haley or Jada Pinkett Smith.

[Pinarius]

I didn't know that there was also a Cleopatra-anime:

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Never heard of it but the fake Egyptian aesthetic is particularly disgusting. They probably saw the Liz Taylor movie. Since Japanese animation and manga had a habit of copying western films up until the 1990's.

[Roma_Victrix]

I just want to point out that this documentary has a few so called experts with PhD's. I am going to need a panel of experts to explain to me how these people have PhD's. But also there are some "experts" who are nobodies without any qualifications. No it isn't who you think actually. The intellectuals in the trailer have PhD's.

Several of the interviewed scholars have actually come out to criticize the show and say they did not fully understand what it was about when they were interviewed. Jada Pinkett Smith and the producers apparently kept information about the show concealed from them. For instance, this interview with Dr. Colleen Darnell who was a commenter in the Netflix series (Egyptian TV interview is in English, but TV presenter starts in Arabic):

No I don't mean incessant attacks by the Left, but this is part of it. I also mean that most "Black Power" groups are essentially part of a religion. For example Nation of Islam which is literally a religion, or their cousins the Hoteps which are also more or less a religion. Afrocentrism and Black Power in general are basically modern religions.

So the fact that this documentary is nonsensical or illogical is inevitable as they are catering to actual pseudo-religious groups. Don't think of it as any different than Passion of the Christ, the Ten Commandments, or God is Not Dead. Jada Plinkett Smith has become the Black Kirk Cameron. Nothing in this was supposed to be historical. It was just to assert faith in the veracity of Afrocentrist claims.

The Nation of Islam is certainly a religion, but I wouldn't depict silly hotep Afrocentrists as having their own organized religion, even if they share and exhibit cultic thoughts and attitudes. It's basically just a collection of chronically online idiots who sniff each others' farts but aren't actually aligned in any coherent fashion. That being said, they do subscribe to a lot of the same literature like the stuff from the Guyanese-British professor Ivan Gladstone Van Sertima who wrote a bunch of conspiracy theories about how Africans founded various civilizations (Olmecs in Mexico, for instance, which is beyond silly). If they do have a bible, it's definitely one of Van Sertima's works.

What I found so interesting about this documentary is how many Black people came out to say that Cleopatra wasn't Black and/or how apparently Arab colonizers is a thing all of a sudden.

Generally speaking, most people are not insane conspiracy theorists who believe in Ancient Aliens and such, and that naturally includes black people. For that matter, most major black Youtubers who put out history content that I've seen (like HomeTeam History) just focus on legitimate Sub-Saharan African history, whether West African, East African, or Southern African, and if they do talk about North Africa it's only due to some tangential relationship (like Ancient Egypt trading with the ancient Somali Kingdom of Punt). The Afrocentric hotep stuff is basically the black version of Ancient Aliens, Flat Earthers, and believers in reptilian shapeshifters.

[Valiant Champion]

She may have been black skinned, but she was definitely caucasiod/caucasion. most black skinned peoples of east africa are caucasoid. black skinned negroid were usually only present in images as traders, emmissaries or prisoners.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Several of the interviewed scholars have actually come out to criticize the show and say they did not fully understand what it was about when they were interviewed. Jada Pinkett Smith and the producers apparently kept information about the show concealed from them. For instance, this interview with Dr. Colleen Darnell who was a commenter in the Netflix series (Egyptian TV interview is in English, but TV presenter starts in Arabic):

That would make the most sense to me. But I would also like to think that Dr. Haley was being manipulated given her academic background, HOWEVER in the case of Dr. Haley she is clearly in line with the agenda.

The Nation of Islam is certainly a religion, but I wouldn't depict silly hotep Afrocentrists as having their own organized religion, even if they share and exhibit cultic thoughts and attitudes. It's basically just a collection of chronically online idiots who sniff each others' farts but aren't actually aligned in any coherent fashion. That being said, they do subscribe to a lot of the same literature like the stuff from the Guyanese-British professor Ivan Gladstone Van Sertima who wrote a bunch of conspiracy theories about how Africans founded various civilizations (Olmecs in Mexico, for instance, which is beyond silly). If they do have a bible, it's definitely one of Van Sertima's works.

It is an illogical world view which they created and actively utilize to justify their positions. Almost nothing in their world view makes sense or is based on fact.

Hoteps may not be an organized religion, and the Hoteps are actually pretty chill, but a lot of them do have pseudo-religious belief in fantasies about the supernatural abilities of the Black race, and in Black pseudo-history.

As well as literally copying Ancient Egyptian religion or practices. Some of them are more cultural, as in they are Atheistic and don't believe in religion, but even just culturally Kemet is part of it. But as I said a lot of them are also literally believers in Ancient Egyptian religion.

Generally speaking, most people are not insane conspiracy theorists who believe in Ancient Aliens and such, and that naturally includes black people. For that matter, most major black Youtubers who put out history content that I've seen (like HomeTeam History) just focus on legitimate Sub-Saharan African history, whether West African, East African, or Southern African, and if they do talk about North Africa it's only due to some tangential relationship (like Ancient Egypt trading with the ancient Somali Kingdom of Punt). The Afrocentric hotep stuff is basically the black version of Ancient Aliens, Flat Earthers, and believers in reptilian shapeshifters.

I don't mean that they believe in Aliens or Kemet melanin super powers. But a lot of Black people do believe that Ancient Egyptians were Black. Even some White people assume this. In my experience it is overwhelming when it comes to Black people.

That includes more hard core people from say Nation of Islam to chill people like Hoteps. The cultural influence that Black Egypt has on the Black community is very high. Often times you will even see them with Egyptian symbols and such.

If you go online and look for which Black people are against Black Cleopatra, a lot of them tend to be against the Black movements in general. People who are associated with Right Wing media and movements like PragerU or Daily Wire. So that in itself is not surprising to me. Only how many Black people actually ascribe to this Conservative ideology.

What is surprising is that a few of the Hoteps and so on have actually come out and said that Black Cleopatra is complex. But more surprising their strange yet pseudo-historical statement. For example Hotep Jesus one of the chillest dudes on the internet, who still believes that Egyptians were Black, has said that Cleopatra was "an octoroon, mixed race, not specifically Black" and he is referring to the statement made by Shakka Ahmose a long time ago.

But Shakka Ahmose himself has said lately that Cleopatra was Black or part Black in any case (which makes her Black or makes her mixed in the grand scheme of things??? Shakka Ahmose's current position is not very clear, but Hotep Jesus said he doesn't care). Her being part Black is something that is way less believable than part Egyptian. But I don't agree that she was part anything in any case.

[Kyriakos]

It is interesting, anyway, that many US people simply fail to realize that their own societal issues aren't identical to those outside the US. Even in societies which are very comparable, such as Britain (same language, but far fewer african-descended citizens) the debate isn't run in the same way (let alone the vast majority of euro countries, which often have less than 0.1% black citizens).

[paleologos]

It is interesting...

What's interesting?
Most Americans cannot name 5 presidents, or 7 States and believe that Herakles frolicked with Xena.

There is a video in youtube where an interviewer asks random people in the street to name a country whose name starts with the letter "U".
Most of them could not say "USA".
One of them said: "Yugoslavia".

And things were that bad before their education system got taken over by woke educators.

[Kyriakos]

I liked another answer in some similar video:

-Who fought in the Civil War?
-Australia against Great Britain



In a way it is a bit charming, in that it alludes to how people there don't have to care about the outside world. But still pretty dumb

[conon394]

What's interesting?
Most Americans cannot name 5 presidents, or 7 States and believe that Herakles frolicked with Xena.

There is a video in youtube where an interviewer asks random people in the street to name a country whose name starts with the letter "U".
Most of them could not say "USA".
One of them said: "Yugoslavia".

And things were that bad before their education system got taken over by woke educators.

Too be fair I would give Yugoslavia a pass on the question for all practical purpose in American English the Y is superfluous. Now when was the interview since after what 1992 the answer is incorrect as there is no such country. Personally if the country does not need to be extent I would have answered Upper Volta.

7 States we have a comparison from a comparable sized country? None of German 16 state crap how many Russians can name all the comparable units in Russia or Chinese ones in China? I am quite sure the list of sub units in Luxembourg is vast right?


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@Kyriakos

Really you know how easy it would be to create a similar video with a select sample of answers for and any country including Greece? Again the video is pointless without statististics. How many interviews? Did everyone get the same set of questions? where are the correct answers?

Also on the video to the revolutionary war - my reply which one? And since the implied desired answer is the the American one I would said not a revolution just a successful tax rebellion of American elites vs Britain - but that would not have been included would it?

I mean I lived in Texas for 4 years and travelled all about the state and you know what I can name with gun to my head one county - Harris where I lived. Why because obviously knowing the rest meant absolutely nothing to me and if I wanted to know I could google that or pull out my road atlas. Now maybe give me a bunch of multiple choice questions in a test setting I probably could say pick the right counties that are on the border or that Galveston (city) is in its little island country of the same name, recall what county the capital is in etc. But on some rando street interview nope.

Also by accent one pair of girls ain't American I'll bet on that. In fact I will bet my left nut because she adds Bora Bora not an island any American is likely to pull out of their @ss but very much an Aussie/New Zealander don't you think? Maybe we can ask Cyclops to referee this point.

[Kyriakos]

Reminds me of yet another video, where a US border guard was stopping cars and asking questions to establish if there are grounds to believe anyone there was illegal. So he asked someone what country he was from, and repeatedly got either a city or a state as answer. In the end he accepted that only a US citizen would be unable to answer correctly, so his work was done

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

This is the first time that he got demonetized. Hmm...

I never liked The Metatron. His stuff is low hanging fruit.
Also was the shroud of Turin real? Really??? I would have demonetized him just for that.