Netflix's Cleopatra

[Roma_Victrix]

She’s half Greek. We can assume that despite the other half of her ancestry being of no interest to anyone, it probably contributed to her appearance.

Fair enough, then not the best example, but aside from Nomikou and Stratou who I've previously mentioned, then a Greek like female journalist Alanna Vagianos or the male politician Evangelos Venizelos.

On another note, if you search "Cleopatra Netflix" on Youtube there's like a billion reaction videos criticizing the series. LOL. That doesn't even include the one with archaeologist Zahi Hawass that came out the same day (May 10th) and has over 200,000 views the last time I saw it.

EDIT: wait a minute, though! Jennifer Anniston's father was the Greek John Anniston, but while her mother was Nancy Dow, the latter's mother Louise Grieco descended from Italian immigrants with a surname "Grieco" that sounds like an indication of Greek origin, so it would appear she is more than half Greek at least.

Also, just for fun, Historia Civilis released this video today, putting to rest how Cleopatra actually looked like (a big blue square):

[Kyriakos]

I am blue, if I was green I would die, da-ba-de, da-ba-dae

[Laser101]

Fair enough, then not the best example, but aside from Nomikou and Stratou who I've previously mentioned, then a Greek like female journalist Alanna Vagianos or the male politician Evangelos Venizelos.

On another note, if you search "Cleopatra Netflix" on Youtube there's like a billion reaction videos criticizing the series. LOL. That doesn't even include the one with archaeologist Zahi Hawass that came out the same day (May 10th) and has over 200,000 views the last time I saw it.

It seems as though Netflix managed the rare accomplishment of making something that virtually everyone is dunking on; a remarkable achievement in the modern media environment.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

She’s half Greek. We can assume that despite the other half of her ancestry being of no interest to anyone, it probably contributed to her appearance.

Common assumptions being that her father the Greek was darker, and photo evidence says that this is true:
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/i...Ui6qw&usqp=CAU

Shoulder pads that rival Hatshepsut’s beard.

Elizabeth Holmes's fake voice is what got me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ymXe...el=Scandalcast

"Yeah you know, as a woman no one respected me as a leader until I started sounding like a teenage boy that hadn't finished going through puberty"

Either way that is not a broad that I can get behind.

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

From Little Mermaid to Cleopatra these red heads can't get a break, goddamn.

[Roma_Victrix]

I am blue, if I was green I would die, da-ba-de, da-ba-dae

Excellent. I love how you never miss an opportunity to bring up one of the worst songs of the 1990s.

It seems as though Netflix managed the rare accomplishment of making something that virtually everyone is dunking on; a remarkable achievement in the modern media environment.

Seriously, though, people on the left and right side of the political spectrum, and people of all backgrounds including African Americans, are dunking on this series. I've seen a number of videos by black Youtubers who hate it intensely, because they see it as a big unnecessary distraction, glorification of a colonial Greek ruler over Egyptians, and missed opportunity to talk about actual black African queens of ancient Sudan and Ethiopia, or medieval Somalia and Mali, etc.

From Little Mermaid to Cleopatra these red heads can't get a break, goddamn.

I know, right? It's redhead ginger erasure!
Although I don't think Cleopatra looked like an Irish ginger. Per Roman frescoes that seem to give it an auburn color (with the Herculaneum one being the most hyperbolically fiery red), her hair was probably just reddish brown like I've said before. The Macedonian monarchs and aristocracy occasionally intermarried with notoriously redheaded Thracians (and also Illyrians) in marriage alliances, so Macedonian men having some red in their beards or women with a reddish tint to their hair is not a huge surprise given the resilience of some recessive traits. Thracians were also a big minority group in Greek city-states like Athens even going back to the Classical period. Ancient Greek writers commonly referred to the Thracians as redheads and the Thracians depicted themselves as such in funerary frescoes of royal tombs in Bulgaria. Some Northern Greeks like Pyrrhos of Epirus were also redheaded for that matter.

[alhoon]

Are we sure Pyrrhos of Epirus was Greek genetically instead of just culturally? I am pretty sure his family was not as obsessed with line purity like the Perverted Ptolemies.

[conon394]

Thracians were also a big minority group in Greek city-states like Athens even going back to the Classical period

And a lot of other non greeks in metic and slave population. And If you were going to make up some odd ethnic citizens Athens is probably a better choice than as Alhoon says in a family obsessed with line purity. After all in Athens all you needed is to not have any enemies on your local deme board such that they would not just say yep he says its his legit kid seems fine with us.

[Kyriakos]

Afaik in ancient Athens not only did you have to be greek to be a citizen, you had to have at least one parent be athenian greek (and later on, both parents).
So to claim that even non-greeks could become citizens, is rather bizarre

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

Seriously, though, people on the left and right side of the political spectrum, and people of all backgrounds including African Americans, are dunking on this series. I've seen a number of videos by black Youtubers who hate it intensely, because they see it as a big unnecessary distraction, glorification of a colonial Greek ruler over Egyptians, and missed opportunity to talk about actual black African queens of ancient Sudan and Ethiopia, or medieval Somalia and Mali, etc.

Yeah the reaction has been pretty interesting considering. I remember like over a decade ago when I was a kid and was first introduced to Afrocentrism. I found a blog on the internet where a Black woman was going over her experiences of discovering that Cleopatra wasn't Black.

But her reasoning for why Black people identify with Cleopatra made sense at a grass roots level. Sure the Egyptian thing was part of it, but also the idea that she was raising the children of two different men, all while being a boss female, that is definitely mama vibes for sure.

It is one of those projections that the Black community tends to engage in. From Cleopatra being their mama, to wanting to be an Egyptian king, to calling themselves Super Saiyans because a gay white person is using racial slurs at them. This time around the reaction to Black Cleopatra has been surprisingly mixed.

Egypt because it was probably the leading African civilization in all of history. But also an attempt to escape the perception of weakness that was caused by slavery. Hell most people don't realize that Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian. While Egypt has permeated all of culture as a whole. I actually got into history because as a kid I really liked Egypt, and then Greece, but not the evil Romans, or the unwashed Celts who looked like Mad Max cannibal soccer hooligans.

I know, right? It's redhead ginger erasure!
Although I don't think Cleopatra looked like an Irish ginger. Per Roman frescoes that seem to give it an auburn color (with the Herculaneum one being the most hyperbolically fiery red), her hair was probably just reddish brown like I've said before.

You are dangerously close to Red Head denial. I am triangulating your position and sending the Albanian special forces, the Dutch special forces, the Irish special forces, and the Norwegian special forces, and Seth Rogen to take you out.

The Macedonian monarchs and aristocracy occasionally intermarried with notoriously redheaded Thracians (and also Illyrians) in marriage alliances, so Macedonian men having some red in their beards or women with a reddish tint to their hair is not a huge surprise given the resilience of some recessive traits. Thracians were also a big minority group in Greek city-states like Athens even going back to the Classical period. Ancient Greek writers commonly referred to the Thracians as redheads and the Thracians depicted themselves as such in funerary frescoes of royal tombs in Bulgaria. Some Northern Greeks like Pyrrhos of Epirus were also redheaded for that matter.

By all accounts the Macedonians were apparently heavily mixed with Thracians and Illyrians. Ptolemy himself may have been a redhead. But he was not from Macedonia as his father Lagus was from Eordaea. Pyrrhus the Epirote was also a redhead and he was not from Macedonia at all. So it does seem that the northern Balkan area had many people with light hair as you've stated. Cleopatra's Sogdian ancestor Apama (the wife of Seleucus Nicator) may have been a redhead, who knows.

[NorthernXY]

Excellent. I love how you never miss an opportunity to bring up one of the worst songs of the 1990s.



Seriously, though, people on the left and right side of the political spectrum, and people of all backgrounds including African Americans, are dunking on this series. I've seen a number of videos by black Youtubers who hate it intensely, because they see it as a big unnecessary distraction, glorification of a colonial Greek ruler over Egyptians, and missed opportunity to talk about actual black African queens of ancient Sudan and Ethiopia, or medieval Somalia and Mali, etc.



I know, right? It's redhead ginger erasure!
Although I don't think Cleopatra looked like an Irish ginger. Per Roman frescoes that seem to give it an auburn color (with the Herculaneum one being the most hyperbolically fiery red), her hair was probably just reddish brown like I've said before. The Macedonian monarchs and aristocracy occasionally intermarried with notoriously redheaded Thracians (and also Illyrians) in marriage alliances, so Macedonian men having some red in their beards or women with a reddish tint to their hair is not a huge surprise given the resilience of some recessive traits. Thracians were also a big minority group in Greek city-states like Athens even going back to the Classical period. Ancient Greek writers commonly referred to the Thracians as redheads and the Thracians depicted themselves as such in funerary frescoes of royal tombs in Bulgaria. Some Northern Greeks like Pyrrhos of Epirus were also redheaded for that matter.

Alexander, who had a sister named Cleopatra, had light brown/blonde hair.

[Roma_Victrix]

And a lot of other non greeks in metic and slave population. And If you were going to make up some odd ethnic citizens Athens is probably a better choice than as Alhoon says in a family obsessed with line purity. After all in Athens all you needed is to not have any enemies on your local deme board such that they would not just say yep he says its his legit kid seems fine with us.

Afaik in ancient Athens not only did you have to be greek to be a citizen, you had to have at least one parent be athenian greek (and later on, both parents).
So to claim that even non-greeks could become citizens, is rather bizarre

I didn't say the Thracians were citizens, I said they were a minority group who lived there, you know, like the Scythians. In either case yes the poleis of the south barely intermarried with outsiders due to the strictures of citizenship, whereas Epirotes and Macedonians did that on frequent occasion with nearby peoples like Thracians and Illyrians, and that includes royal houses in marriage alliances. That and Greek and Italian genomes haven't changed much since the Bronze Age, so the northern parts of Greece and Italy have pretty much always had a minority of blonds and redheads running about (especially after northern Italy was settled by Celtic tribes who lived just north of the Etruscans prior to Roman assimilation).

Probably also worth noting that red hair is still a minority hair color even in Ireland where it's most prevalent, because you know, it's a recessive gene.

Egypt because it was probably the leading African civilization in all of history. But also an attempt to escape the perception of weakness that was caused by slavery. Hell most people don't realize that Cleopatra wasn't even Egyptian. While Egypt has permeated all of culture as a whole. I actually got into history because as a kid I really liked Egypt, and then Greece, but not the evil Romans, or the unwashed Celts who looked like Mad Max cannibal soccer hooligans.

That's the best description of the Celts I have yet seen anywhere on this site.

You are dangerously close to Red Head denial. I am triangulating your position and sending the Albanian special forces, the Dutch special forces, the Irish special forces, and the Norwegian special forces, and Seth Rogen to take you out.

This sounds like the beginning of one of those Navy Seals copypasta texts.

By all accounts the Macedonians were apparently heavily mixed with Thracians and Illyrians. Ptolemy himself may have been a redhead. But he was not from Macedonia as his father Lagus was from Eordaea. Pyrrhus the Epirote was also a redhead and he was not from Macedonia at all. So it does seem that the northern Balkan area had many people with light hair as you've stated. Cleopatra's Sogdian ancestor Apama (the wife of Seleucus Nicator) may have been a redhead, who knows.

Seriously, though, they were Iranian, but if you look at the modern linguistic and genetic descendants of Sogdians living in Tajikistan today (the Yaghnobi people), they literally look like a bunch of impoverished Russians who converted to Islam. LOL. Aside from some who look Mongolic or Turkic due to admixture over time, most of them have either light brown or even blonde hair, and green or blue eyes, just as the Tang dynasty Chinese had described the Sogdians of medieval times.

The Chinese also depicted the Sogdians in silk paintings and ceramic art like a bunch of bearded garden gnomes with funny hats.

[Kyriakos]

I was only attacking Conon. You were used, but like any gun was not to blame

[Ludicus]

I would like to mention Cleopatra's ethnicity has already been discussed here ad nauseam. A great thread, there is not much more to say. Cleopatra was white and I can prove it - Total War Center
That said, I deeply admire Roma Victrix’s stamina- and extensive knowledge, of course. Unstoppable! (More precisely: almost unstoppable)

[Roma_Victrix]

I would like to mention Cleopatra's ethnicity has already been discussed here ad nauseam. A great thread, there is not much more to say. Cleopatra was white and I can prove it - Total War Center
That said, I deeply admire Roma Victrix’s stamina- and extensive knowledge, of course. Unstoppable! (More precisely: almost unstoppable)

To clarify, "white" as in a Greek and Southeastern European in the Mediterranean, not "white" like a Swede or a Latvian.
The title was also partly tongue in cheek to grab people's attention. Apparently it worked!
I could have chosen some boring title instead, like "look at these neat Pompeian frescoes that scholars like Classicist Duane W. Roller believe depict the late Ptolemaic monarch Cleopatra VII Philopator" and instead I cast some bait that I knew some users wouldn't be able to resist.

Obviously we'll never know with certainty about her DNA unless we find her tomb (which might happen soon given the ongoing search at Taposiris Magna). We have obvious evidence, though, not just her family tree, her coins from Egypt, and Roman paintings and busts, but also the poet Lucan who said her breasts were white when she emphasized them in eastern style dresses (could be a turn of phrase). More substantive than that, the famous orator and senator Cicero met her personally in Rome and referred to her in a backhanded compliment as a clever "graecula" (Greek woman). If she was black African like a Nubian of Kush (Sudan) or Upper Egypt I think he would have used a different word to describe her, like an Ethiopian ("Aethiopikoi").

Greeks and Romans knew full well what Ethiopians looked like. There's even a funny 3rd century AD novel Aethiopica describing the story of how an Ethiopian princess Chariclea was born white and was thus abandoned by her mother the queen out of fears that the baby would be said to have been born out of wedlock. In all their propaganda lobbed at Cleopatra the Romans never once made that accusation about Cleopatra, while Strabo (uncorroborated by other historians) merely suggested she had a different mother than her older sister Berenice IV (born of the same father at the very least, Ptolemy XII Auletes).

I was only attacking Conon. You were used, but like any gun was not to blame

Roma_Victrix, the smoking gun! Better than being Chekhov's gun I guess!

[Lord Oda Nobunaga]

White like an Egyptian.

[Ludicus]

Roma_Victrix, the smoking gun! Better than being Chekhov's gun I guess!

I never tire of repeating that I greatly admire your encyclopedic knowledge, your posts are a delight to read.In fact, my dear friend, you did a brilliant job trying to prove what cannot be proved. 😊
-----
I do not appreciate the anxieties of white supremacists about race. (That’s not the case with Roma, of course!).

On one hand, Shakespeare is not only for white people. On the other hand, what is wrong with the Netflix docudrama about Queen Cleopatra is that it was made as an Afrocentric educational project. We may never know her race, that’s the reason why, in my opinion, it doesn’t “makes perfect sense for Netflix’s New Cleopatra to Be Black”, as the Slate defends, Netflix's Queen
---
I don’t take offense, but I can’t avoid feeling a sense of disbelief when I watch “Queen Charlotte: a Bridgerton story”, as Lorraine Ali remarked not long ago: The debate over Bridgerton and race - Vox

Historians and Jane Austen purists may take offense, but this well-crafted, escapist drama - where orchestras play covers of Ariana Grande and Billie Eilish hits — is not meant for them.

Who knows, it will end up working like Fernando Pessoa's advertising slogan for coca cola- “primeiro estranha-se, depois entranha-se” (First, you find it strange. Then you can't get enough of it).

[Kyriakos]

^That is a very good TIL for me. Pessoa wrote a slogan for coca-cola...
Now I've seen everything, as they say

[Roma_Victrix]

On one hand, Shakespeare is not only for white people. On the other hand, what is wrong with the Netflix docudrama about Queen Cleopatra is that it was made as an Afrocentric educational project. We may never know her race, that’s the reason why, in my opinion, it doesn’t “makes perfect sense for Netflix’s New Cleopatra to Be Black”, as the Slate defends, Netflix's Queen

I mean yeah, pretty much. It basically brushed aside any inconvenient evidence to shoehorn their narrative, and was not a good faith depiction of the ethnic demographics in the Greek city-state of Alexandria (to say nothing of the Ptolemies as a royal family). The documentary put out on Youtube by Curtis Ryan Woodside on the same day (May 10th) was far more serious, although not a live action piece like the Netflix docudrama so not as entertaining.

Speaking of which, apparently the biomedical and forensic Egyptologist/Egyptian bioarchaeologist Sofia Aziz and aforementioned filmmaker Woodside were approached by Smith's production team back in 2021. They were asked to help out with the project on Netflix. LOL. They backed out as soon as they realized it was a propaganda puff piece disinterested in anything that upset its narrative. Of the academics who stayed on, only Sally Ann-Ashton could be said to be a real Egyptologist (curating special exhibitions for the British Museum), although she received her PhD in Egyptian artwork back in 1999. She has since focused mainly on teaching African history to black inmates in prison environments of the UK per her MPhil in Criminological Research and recently wrote a book about the origins of afro combs.

Here's a video explaining how they were approached (article source given in the video):

[conon394]

On the other hand, what is wrong with the Netflix docudrama about Queen Cleopatra is that it was made as an Afrocentric educational project

Because education implies attempting to convey the best understanding of what history was to the best of your ability based on the best use of evidence. And that is clearly Cleopatra was the Macedonian (whom the Roman's would have just called Greek) the product of the inbreed royal linage of imperial occupies of Egypt. And a line that cared a great deal about legitimacy back to Ptolemy and or his other generals and the man himself so shaving with occam's razor the possibility she was a basterd is really really low and where the case that it would explicitly not be noted even more unlikely.

Its not education when it becomes propaganda. Roll it around if you say what's wrong with a whitewashing nazi based docudrama about history?

On one hand, Shakespeare is not only for white people

And last I checked he was writing drama. Which is why Blacula is a really good B grade vampire movie. But nether the original nor the 70s blacksplation film are telling or selling themselves as a documentary.