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Thread: Netflix's Cleopatra

  1. #161
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Pinarius View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    I actually don't like this portrait at all and think that it makes no sense.



    "Only 25% of Cleopatra's ethnic makeup is totally certain???"

    No it isn't. I did a family tree of the Ptolemies. I pretty much broke it down. I don't care about wild speculations regarding Ptolemy XII's mother or Cleopatra's mother.



    "About 25% of Cleopatra's ethnicity is Middle Eastern"

    If by 25% she means Sogdian then no. As the Sogdians were not explicitly Middle Eastern. Go look up Sogdians and where Sogdia was located. If we were judging it by modern standards then Cleopatra would have been Asian. But in her time Sogdia had not been conquered by the Turks, that was not until the 500's/600's AD.

    The Sogdians would not have looked much different from the people in Tajikistan. Though culturally they are Iranian the people there kind of look more like Russians actually. Which Scythians and Sogdians were not that different anyway.

    Now if she means because we don't know Ptolemy XII's mother there really is no reason to assume that his mother would not have been an Alexandrian. Which means Greek. It doesn't seem like the Ptolemies were sampling the local women. There is actually a high chance that even if Ptolemy XII was considered illegitimate that his mother would have been a member of the Ptolemaic line anyway.

    Interestingly of the three ancient writers that refer to Ptolemy XII as being illegitimate, not one refers to Cleopatra as being illegitimate. But given what we know there is an extremely high chance that Ptolemy XII's mother was an Alexandrian Greek, probably a member of the elite, or one of his relatives who was a member of the Ptolemaic family.

    Now we know that Ptolemy IX (his father) had three or four children. With two consorts: Cleopatra IV and Cleopatra Selene. Consider that Ptolemy XII was considered illegitimate due to some technicality and that his mother could have possibly been Cleopatra IV or Cleopatra Selene. Though it is said that Ptolemy 9th had other illegitimate sons, while Pausanias said that Ptolemy 9th Soter had no legitimate sons at all.

    If true that puts us in a predicament but illegitimacy here probably just means that the mother was not a reigning queen. So again the likelihood that Ptolemy 12th Auletes was birthed by a member of the Ptolemaic family, or at the very least a member of the Alexandrian elite, is extremely high. Sorry there was no Egyptian intermarriage. Generally when these claims have been brought up in other cases, they are quickly debunked.



    One more thing. Using coins is not really useful because aside from the coins being generally of poor quality so that they could be produced en masse (from Marius to the early reign of Augustus this was the era of inflation, but it was much worse in Egypt), they are also not interested in depicting an accurate likeness.

    The goal being to create a stereotypical Cleopatra that was easily recognizable and to be mass produced on coins. Cleopatra was not intended to look ugly, rather their goal was to present her as the Ptolemaic ideal. Hence the massive jaw, the thick brow, the large nose. So we could call it Ptolemaic features.

    This was to portray the Ptolemies as strong rulers, but given that Cleopatra was a woman that had the effect that she was portrayed in a very masculine fashion. Which serves the intended purpose because all women leaders do anyway is wear pant suits and try to look ugly so that men will follow them.
    One more reason I don't like this video. It just occurred to me that when referring to Ptolemy she showed a picture of the ancient scholar instead of Ptolemy Soter. LMAO.

    I find it so infuriating with the whole "her mother and grandmother could have been anyone, it could have been an Egyptian woman, it could have been a Sub-Saharan woman, it could have been a European woman" yeah maybe if we lived in fantasy land where everything is possible. I'm sure Ptolemy XII had jungle fever. This is such a modern perspective on the matter. Both her mother and grandmother were likely to be Greek, her mother was 99% likely to be Cleopatra V. Her grandmother was probably also Greek at the very least if not another member of the Ptolemaic family. "So I'm going to work off the assumption that Cleopatra was 75% Greek and Middle Eastern" WTF!!! WHY!!!???

    Honestly this past month I realized something... so many of these academics are so terrible. They will give doctorates to just about anyone. So I will be expecting my PhD in the mail cause if supporters of "Black Cleopatra" can have one or "We don't know who Cleopatra's mom was she might have been Egyptian" can have one then I can have one already. It was already bad when academics were like "Cleopatra might have been part Egyptian because she spoke Egyptian" never mind the fact that she also spoke cave speak apparently, so I guess she was a Neanderthal as well. But now Jada Pinkett Smith can produce documentaries?

    Give me a major in Early Modern Warfare, Napoleonic Warfare, Sengoku Era Japan, Ancient China (specifically the Warring States, Qin, Han and Three Kingdoms), Hittite studies, Classics and a minor in Post-Modern African Diaspora media, throw in PoliSci, and... I dunno Psychology or something.
    Last edited by Lord Oda Nobunaga; June 02, 2023 at 09:32 PM.

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  2. #162

    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    Kinda crazy how they are even getting White people to say all this stuff in this documentary.
    Crazy maybe, but not at all surprising.

    When I was in sociocultural anthropology, I noticed that non-whites invariably study their own culture, whereas whites almost always study some "exotic" culture. If you saw a white anthropologist's girlfriend, husband, or whatever, you could be something like 90% sure what that particular culture is. The same is somewhat true within the rest of the social sciences. Apparently, the trouble Sally-Ann Ashton had was that she discovered she had a mismatch that she needed to be resolved. She just wants some attention from the right people. Those poor incarcerated young black men she works with now are a captive audience.

    Reminds me of the woman I knew in passing from the University of Washington, who claims Sponge Bob SquarePants is violent, racist, and colonialist.

    Here she is with her "Pacific Islander research family":

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    To be fair, both the aforementioned are also white savior types, and I should also note that saying things which are perceived to be good for POC's self-esteem tends to be good for one's career these days. To be clear, I'm not being critical of being particularly attracted to people from the culture you study. Rather, it's the obfuscating and/or pedaling nonsense for the sake of it, that I don't much care for.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    It is interesting, anyway, that many US people simply fail to realize that their own societal issues aren't identical to those outside the US. Even in societies which are very comparable, such as Britain (same language, but far fewer african-descended citizens) the debate isn't run in the same way (let alone the vast majority of euro countries, which often have less than 0.1% black citizens).
    True, UK Asians don't even look Asian.

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    Most Americans cannot name 5 presidents, or 7 States and believe that Herakles frolicked with Xena.

    There is a video in youtube where an interviewer asks random people in the street to name a country whose name starts with the letter "U".
    Most of them could not say "USA".
    One of them said: "Yugoslavia".

    And things were that bad before their education system got taken over by woke educators.
    It isn't the education system, these things are covered repeatedly over the 13 years of public school. It's just not retained, because most Americans literally don't care in the slightest bit. For most I think, there is a strong preference for pop culture and/or pragmatic knowledge, and regarding geography, few Americans ever travel outside the US, except for those who live in border states, and then just across the border. For working class people, there is no social capital in knowing such things. In fact, it may be the opposite. By work, I don’t mean the sort of stuff I do. This is my impression anyway.
    Last edited by sumskilz; June 03, 2023 at 02:28 PM. Reason: clarification
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  3. #163
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    It isn't the education system, these things are covered repeatedly over the 13 years of public school. It's just not retained, because most Americans literally don't care in the slightest bit. For most I think, there is a strong preference for pop culture and/or pragmatic knowledge, and regarding geography, few Americans ever travel outside the US, except for those who live in border states, and then just across the border. For working class people, there is no social capital in knowing such things. In fact, it may be the opposite. By work, I don’t mean the sort of stuff I do. This is my impression anyway.
    Err and I am confident you can create an edit video set of the same type on any country for You Tube content. And than come up with why the locals are clueless.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #164
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Many will be clueless, certainly But you can't deny that in the US far more people can easily get away with next to knowing nothing about the world outside the US, which simply isn't the same elsewhere (well, it would be similar in some other continent-sized countries, but even they have a use for learning english as a second language).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  5. #165
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Many will be clueless, certainly But you can't deny that in the US far more people can easily get away with next to knowing nothing about the world outside the US, which simply isn't the same elsewhere (well, it would be similar in some other continent-sized countries, but even they have a use for learning english as a second language).
    I will provisionally agree. But no more than than that unless somebody drags up real survey data with both general knowledge of the world and some random local history questions. But I won't reach any conclusions based on a random edit You Video for which the objective seems to be americans are clueless.

    Again these are fun but easy to make like for China.

    https://nextshark.com/chinese-geography-skills-video

    but even they have a use for learning english as a second language).
    Willing to bet that any other continent sized country now that emerged out WW2 as powerful and economically dominant (as the US did) that spoke a different language than english and its was preceded by several centuries of another world spanning empire that spoke the same language . and was still the leading economy in the world - it citizens would not be learning a second language with any regularity.
    Last edited by conon394; June 03, 2023 at 08:32 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  6. #166
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    From Little Mermaid to Cleopatra these red heads can't get a break, goddamn.
    Triss Merigold.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  7. #167
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    Crazy maybe, but not at all surprising.

    When I was in sociocultural anthropology, I noticed that non-whites invariably study their own culture, whereas whites almost always study some "exotic" culture. If you saw a white anthropologist's girlfriend, husband, or whatever, you could be something like 90% sure what that particular culture is. The same is somewhat true within the rest of the social sciences. Apparently, the trouble Sally-Ann Ashton had was that she discovered she had a mismatch that she needed to be resolved. She just wants some attention from the right people. Those poor incarcerated young black men she works with now are a captive audience.

    Reminds me of the woman I knew in passing from the University of Washington, who claims Sponge Bob SquarePants is violent, racist, and colonialist.

    Here she is with her "Pacific Islander research family":

    To be fair, both the aforementioned are also white savior types, and I should also note that saying things which are perceived to be good for POC's self-esteem tends to be good for one's career these days. To be clear, I'm not being critical of being particularly attracted to people from the culture you study. Rather, it's the obfuscating and/or pedaling nonsense for the sake of it, that I don't much care for.

    True, UK Asians don't even look Asian.

    It isn't the education system, these things are covered repeatedly over the 13 years of public school. It's just not retained, because most Americans literally don't care in the slightest bit. For most I think, there is a strong preference for pop culture and/or pragmatic knowledge, and regarding geography, few Americans ever travel outside the US, except for those who live in border states, and then just across the border. For working class people, there is no social capital in knowing such things. In fact, it may be the opposite. By work, I don’t mean the sort of stuff I do. This is my impression anyway.
    There is a bit of a White saviour complex happening with some of these White people and that Iranian-Brit-American-Kiwi director.

    But people are so uninformed. Most people don't even know that Cleopatra was Greek or that her dad was named Ptolemy, much less that there were over a dozen rulers named Ptolemy. Most people think "Marc Anthony" was a historical figure.

    The majority of Black people think that Egyptians were Black, as do many other people of other races. A lot of people associate anything in the Ancient Middle East with Arabs and Arab culture as well.

    Movies like The Scorpion King or Tut probably didn't help. Where there are a lot of Black actors. Friggin Ridley Scott's Exodus: Gods and Kids portrayed the Hittites as being Black or something. While their aesthetic made them look like generic ancient times tribal people. I'm sure at least half of those actors from The Mummy or Star Gate are actually Hispanic, Jewish, or Armenian.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  8. #168
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    I wish the romans would be black too, if the greeks are
    I recall the outrage with that (vaguely) medieval Poland-Lithuania (or thereabouts) game because it had no black people.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  9. #169

    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I wish the romans would be black too, if the greeks are
    I recall the outrage with that (vaguely) medieval Poland-Lithuania (or thereabouts) game because it had no black people.
    I think that was Kingdom Come: Deliverance which was set in Hussite War-era Bohemia.

  10. #170
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    ^+1
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #171
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by sumskilz View Post
    It isn't the education system, these things are covered repeatedly over the 13 years of public school. It's just not retained, because most Americans literally don't care in the slightest bit. For most I think, there is a strong preference for pop culture and/or pragmatic knowledge, and regarding geography, few Americans ever travel outside the US, except for those who live in border states, and then just across the border. For working class people, there is no social capital in knowing such things. In fact, it may be the opposite. By work, I don’t mean the sort of stuff I do. This is my impression anyway.
    When I went to an American public school, ancient history was never taught in detail. And then the teachers never reached beyond the Reconstruction era. Actually, the Reconstruction era was considered to be far late in American standards. My American elementary teachers didn't go beyond the War of 1812. In college, most of the students don't take a history course, or they take a basic one that's not detailed. If they don't have any interest in history, then they won't research on their own unless their grades depend on it. I'm not surprised that there are a lot of people who know very little history. It's very easy for the creators of that Cleopatra "documentary" to trick people, hence it's why they're attempting to do it. Of course, these creators live in their own bubble and don't realize the backlash that would come from outside their bubble.
    Last edited by Ukiah; June 06, 2023 at 08:13 AM.

  12. #172
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    But people are so uninformed. Most people don't even know that Cleopatra was Greek or that her dad was named Ptolemy, much less that there were over a dozen rulers named Ptolemy. Most people think "Marc Anthony" was a historical figure.

    To be fair how many people can rattle off anything about the Sumerian or Mayan king lists and know anything about those rulers? Which ones are real and those that are likely mythological. Can you without a quick trip to google scholar?

    "Marc Anthony"
    I dunno for western civ 101 I would take the spelling (error) as long as they correctly placed the person in Second Triumvirate, or as one of JC's right hand men.
    Last edited by conon394; June 06, 2023 at 10:58 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  13. #173
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    At least they didn't get Marky Mark to play him.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  14. #174
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    To be fair how many people can rattle off anything about the Sumerian or Mayan king lists and know anything about those rulers? Which ones are real and those that are likely mythological. Can you without a quick trip to google scholar?
    Yes actually.

    If we are talking about specifically Sumerian kings then my favorites tend to be from the Neo-Sumerian period. I do have a soft spot for Mesh-ane-pada and the potential for a historical Gilgamesh or Gilgamesh type of figure from Uruk. Though my main interest is actually Akkad and the Amorite period.

    In terms of Mayan civilization I do like Siyaj Kak but he was actually Mexica not Mayan. For fear of sounding cliché I will say Pacal but I also find Hunac Ceel to have been a very enigmatic figure, if not controversial in his own time.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I dunno for western civ 101 I would take the spelling (error) as long as they correctly placed the person in Second Triumvirate, or as one of JC's right hand men.
    Ah yes Marc Anthony and Jennifer Lopez, a love affair second only to Ben Affleck and Jennifer Lopez.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  15. #175

    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Poster reminded me that I've been in a conversation that Hannibal was black because he was from Africa. One facepalm later I stated he was Phoenician, which is like modern day Lebanon area. Hell, the Punic Wars are called what they are because the Romans thought of the Carthaginians as Phoenicians.

  16. #176
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    At least they didn't get Marky Mark to play him.
    [Will Smith gears up for a slap.] I SAID...KEEP MY WIFE'S FUNKY BUNCH OUT YO DAMN MOUTH, FOOL!!!!
    Poor Chris Rock! The dude just can't catch a break.

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernXY View Post
    Poster reminded me that I've been in a conversation that Hannibal was black because he was from Africa. One facepalm later I stated he was Phoenician, which is like modern day Lebanon area. Hell, the Punic Wars are called what they are because the Romans thought of the Carthaginians as Phoenicians.
    The Romans were right to do so, considering how the Carthaginian ancestry, religion, language, artistic traditions, architecture, etc. was mostly rooted in ancient Phoenicia, and of course partially influenced by Egyptians, Greeks, and Iberians along the way (the latter mostly with military gear as you and I have discussed in the Vestigia Vetustatis sub-forum). To be fair, there were some black Africans who fought in service of Carthage by virtue of some Numidian Berbers intermarrying with darker skinned folk from the deep Algerian and Moroccan interior (we do have Roman reliefs showing Maghreb cavalry auxiliaries with frizzy dreadlock hair at the least). Carthaginian citizens would have been mostly Levantine or Lebanese looking Semites, while the second class Libyans they intermarried with most likely would have looked like typical Libyans of modern times, ditto for mixed race Punic Sardinians probably looking like Sardinians for the most part, or Phoenicians who intermarried with Greeks in Sicily looking like Greeks or like modern Sicilians.

    Ironically, the Carthaginians were more xenophobic than the Romans when it came to allowing outsiders to gain citizenship in their city-state. The Romans granted wholesale citizenship to entire Gallic tribes and allies all at once as a reward for special service. However, not all freemen in the empire were citizens until Caracalla and a late Republican era Social War was fought in Italy over the right to citizenship by allies. Still a better track record than Carthage, though, which didn't even enfranchise the Libyans who were very close to them culturally for centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    There is a bit of a White saviour complex happening with some of these White people and that Iranian-Brit-American-Kiwi director.

    But people are so uninformed. Most people don't even know that Cleopatra was Greek or that her dad was named Ptolemy, much less that there were over a dozen rulers named Ptolemy. Most people think "Marc Anthony" was a historical figure.

    The majority of Black people think that Egyptians were Black, as do many other people of other races. A lot of people associate anything in the Ancient Middle East with Arabs and Arab culture as well.

    Movies like The Scorpion King or Tut probably didn't help. Where there are a lot of Black actors. Friggin Ridley Scott's Exodus: Gods and Kids portrayed the Hittites as being Black or something. While their aesthetic made them look like generic ancient times tribal people. I'm sure at least half of those actors from The Mummy or Star Gate are actually Hispanic, Jewish, or Armenian.
    Entertainment does play a huge role in shaping public perception about long gone civilizations, one could argue far more than actual high school or college history courses, hence the huge outcry against the Netflix Cleopatra series. You won't see that kind of immediate backlash in comment sections and social media reported on in mainstream media if someone were to criticize a boring old book by Ivan Van Sertima, even though Afrocentrists like him are the originators of most of this silliness. As you've mentioned before, though, most "Hoteps" are just harmless idiots even if the more radical Nation of Islam is extremely vocal and even militant about protecting and amplifying these theories. It's comparable to most fans of "Ancient Aliens" being harmless idiots for the most part, but they share a loose connective tissue with Neo-Nazis who use that idea to disparage non-European civilizations to suggest they built nothing of their own and needed aliens or Nordic Aryan supermen rulers to do it for them. It's quite similar to the Afrocentrist stuff that says blacks created the Olmec civilization in ancient Mexico or even the Shang dynasty in ancient China but they were all killed off by the evil Mexicans and Chinese at some nebulous point in the historical timeline (how convenient that they just ignore any and all primary sources, DNA analyses, and archaeology that suggests otherwise, let alone common sense).

  17. #177
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by NorthernXY View Post
    Poster reminded me that I've been in a conversation that Hannibal was black because he was from Africa. One facepalm later I stated he was Phoenician, which is like modern day Lebanon area. Hell, the Punic Wars are called what they are because the Romans thought of the Carthaginians as Phoenicians.
    Yes but even in a modern setting that kind misperception is easy to make. My father had a pretty good story. One of the young tool and die makers was spending all his time studying Spanish. Like when just kinda waiting for something to break and they are otherwise sitting around (other time they are making stuff its sometime some have to sorta be on call ). So my father asked him why (because usually skilled trades guys would study some new rating or technical certificate etc in down time). He was going on huge family vacation to Brazil. My father laughed and pointed out he needed to be learning Portuguese and he probably would end up offending the locals if used Spanish - he was better off hoping they spoke some english. Guy would absolutely not believe him because you know everyone south of the US speaks Spanish.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  18. #178
    Lord Oda Nobunaga's Avatar 大信皇帝
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    I wish the romans would be black too, if the greeks are
    I recall the outrage with that (vaguely) medieval Poland-Lithuania (or thereabouts) game because it had no black people.
    Yeah I find that way less offensive than just the Egyptians being Black. Like at least if it was consistent it would actually make sense. Being inaccurate to the source material is one reason that people complain. But just the fact that it makes no sense that there are multiracial/biracial societies in Ancient or Medieval times.

    "Famous general without peer in any age, most superior in valor and inspired by the Way of Heaven; since the provinces are now subject to your will it is certain that you will increasingly mount in victory." - Ōgimachi-tennō

  19. #179
    Ludicus's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Oda Nobunaga View Post
    No I don't mean incessant attacks by the Left, but this is part of it.
    I am from the left and I think that a movie made about Cleopatra, entirely featuring black actors, with the deliberate intention of being an "educational" Afrocentric project, is an incredibly shortsighted stupidity without limits. But perhaps you are referring to a specific sector of the American left. Another thing, quite different, is wanting to forcefully prove that Cleopatra was white, because it cannot be proven.Another thing, quite different, is wanting to forcefully prove that Cleopatra was white, because it cannot be proven.
    Il y a quelque chose de pire que d'avoir une âme perverse. C’est d'avoir une âme habituée
    Charles Péguy

    Every human society must justify its inequalities: reasons must be found because, without them, the whole political and social edifice is in danger of collapsing”.
    Thomas Piketty

  20. #180
    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Netflix's Cleopatra

    There doesn't seem to be any need to "forcibly prove Cleopatra was white" in the first place, since if she wasn't white, we'd have at least some mentions of such. Romans (and Greeks) provided descriptions for much less striking traits.
    Anyway, it is funny how this gets lumped up to the slave trade in the US, as if ancient romans/greeks viewed north europeans as something other than barbarians, regardless of skin tone
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










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