Lindsey Graham suggests invading Mexico to fight the cartels.

[alhoon]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...C1mR6q0Z8Sm1XQ

As we often mentioned, guns are flowing to Mexico from USA. You can turn the entire Mexico to ash and the Cartels will still have their guns.

[Vanoi]

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/latino/...C1mR6q0Z8Sm1XQ

As we often mentioned, guns are flowing to Mexico from USA. You can turn the entire Mexico to ash and the Cartels will still have their guns.

You could stop every single firearm from reaching Mexico and nothing would change in terms of how powerful the cartels are.

Btw they can get guns from non-US sources.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mexi...-source-2022-2

[alhoon]

You could stop every single firearm from reaching Mexico and nothing would change in terms of how powerful the cartels are.

Btw they can get guns from non-US sources.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mexi...-source-2022-2

They would loose access to the source of 80% of their guns.

[Vanoi]

They would loose access to the source of 80% of their guns.

Did you even read the article? The cartels are aware of the efforts to stem the tide of guns from the US. They mention numerous times they know ways to work that including sourcing weapons from countries such as Colombia whose police and military frequently loose track of their own guns.

The government's "actions are slowing down our job, but we haven't stopped at all. We are finding new ways, including the back door: Central America," the trafficker, nicknamed "El Güero," told Insider, asking not to be identified for personal security reasons.

Mexican criminal groups have long been associated with foreign-made weapons like the AK-47 and M16, but, according to El Güero, it is now more common for sicarios, or hitmen, to use the Galil ACE, an Israeli rifle that is manufactured in Colombia. The Galil ACE is an official weapon for Mexican and Colombian law enforcement.

"The Galil is not the best one, but it does the job. I still get more requests to get cuernos, but when there is none available, a Galil from Central America is enough," El Güero said, referring to "cuerno de chivo," a nickname for the AK-47 meaning "Goat's Horn."

That's why I laugh at the assertion that all you need to do is stop the flow of guns from the US to stop the violence. It's shows a real lack of understanding of the situation and not understanding how these cartels are able to adapt regardless of measures taken against them.

[Roma_Victrix]

Did you even read the article? The cartels are aware of the efforts to stem the tide of guns from the US. They mention numerous times they know ways to work that including sourcing weapons from countries such as Colombia whose police and military frequently loose track of their own guns.

That's why I laugh at the assertion that all you need to do is stop the flow of guns from the US to stop the violence. It's shows a real lack of understanding of the situation and not understanding how these cartels are able to adapt regardless of measures taken against them.

Are you suggesting that they are going to make up for an 80% loss in firearm imports by doing what exactly, stealing more from the Colombian police and military? LOL. Colombia would have to lose a LOT of guns for that to make any kind of sense. It would be a paltry return compared to 80% of what they are used to receiving from the US. The US is clearly the biggest and most reliable manufacturer of weapons for them. Cutting that off would be an enormous stumbling block for the cartel, and would be one serious avenue for combatting them if you are not serious about ending the failed and so-called War on Drugs.

Legalization of very addictive (and unhealthy) substances is downright harmful. Smoking a joint or a few cigarettes or getting drunk one time will most probably not put you in a road of addiction that it is nearly impossible to break, nor tie you to substances that will be the most important thing in your life, often more important than your kids.

I mean, simply legalizing marijuana would make an impact, but let's say hypothetically far more dangerous substances like cocaine were decriminalized for possession of small amounts or treated as administrative offenses rather than criminal ones. Lord Thesaurian likes to say Portugal's experiment has failed but the data from over two decades of Portugal's drug policies since 2001 proves him wrong. Not a huge surprise, as he is wrong about many things. From the linked source:

Drug-related deaths have remained below the EU average since 2001
The proportion of prisoners sentenced for drugs has fallen from 40% to 15%
Rates of drug use have remained consistently below the EU average

When it is no longer cool or edgy to use drugs like a hoodlum and seen more like a personal failing, that you are a disappointing loser who needs to check in to a hospital because you are weak willed, suddenly drugs seem to lose their appeal! Who knew?

For people who turn to drugs to cope with physical or mental anguish, hospitalizing them and putting them into rehab is far more sensible and humane than throwing them in jail. Conservatives love the latter as the solution even though their beloved figures like Rush Limbaugh had an Oxycontin pill addiction problem. I realize that the Mexican Cartel has branched out into many industries and avenues for making money elsewhere, but undermining their illicit drug trade profits and cutting off the supply of 80% of their firearms would quite frankly cripple them and make them far less relevant than they are now.

[Lord Thesaurian]

I mean, simply legalizing marijuana would make an impact, but let's say hypothetically far more dangerous substances like cocaine were decriminalized for possession of small amounts or treated as administrative offenses rather than criminal ones. Lord Thesaurian likes to say Portugal's experiment has failed but the data from over two decades of Portugal's drug policies since 2001 proves him wrong. Not a huge surprise, as he is wrong about many things.

From the linked source:

Simply repeating things doesn’t make them true. I made no judgment regarding the quality of Portugal’s drug laws or the lack thereof.

- drug deaths in Portugal were already lower than the EU average at the time of drug decriminalization, and have actually been rising for the past decade

- the reduction in drug offenses to the EU average isn’t relevant given other EU countries criminalize drugs

- Portugal has similar rates of drug use with EU countries that criminalize drug possession.

All these points, and particularly the latter, would appear to render your “what about Portugal” argument moot, especially since decriminalization does not impact supply in the first place, which I had pointed out the first time you brought this up.

Deliberate misinterpretation of the source material hardly validates your argument, never mind at my expense.

[Roma_Victrix]

I know the common refrain here is that Mexico is a helpless narco-state beyond repair or saving at this point, and hence the righteous US must step in and invade because it knows better and is just so much more competent at law enforcement. Putting aside the grotesque violation of their state sovereignty by such a move, it seems like Mexico is capable of combatting this stuff on its own. Suggesting that Mexico has simply given up or is disinterested in its own illicit drug trade problem is false. Despite corruption and some complicity by certain officials in regards to the cartel, some institutions are working fine, as Mexico's Navy was able to bust up this operation just recently:

ABC News (report by Associated Press): Mexico finds 11,520 tequila bottles with liquid meth at port: Inspectors from the Mexican Navy say they have found 11,520 tequila bottles bound for export that actually contained concentrated liquid meth

[Lord Thesaurian]

I know the common refrain here is that Mexico is a helpless narco-state beyond repair or saving at this point, and hence the righteous US must step in and invade because it knows better and is just so much more competent at law enforcement. Putting aside the grotesque violation of their state sovereignty by such a move, it seems like Mexico is capable of combatting this stuff on its own. Suggesting that Mexico has simply given up or is disinterested in its own illicit drug trade problem is false. Despite corruption and some complicity by certain officials in regards to the cartel, some institutions are working fine, as Mexico's Navy was able to bust up this operation just recently:

ABC News (report by Associated Press): Mexico finds 11,520 tequila bottles with liquid meth at port: Inspectors from the Mexican Navy say they have found 11,520 tequila bottles bound for export that actually contained concentrated liquid meth

This is objectively false. Illegal border crossings and drug seizures at the border by CBP are higher than ever, as are drug-related murders in Mexico. AMLO has actively restricted cooperation with US law enforcement and claimed everything is just fine and the US is making all this up. This has been underscored by data leaks last year confirming corruption and collusion with the cartels reaches the highest levels of the Mexican government. Mere days ago, AMLO deliberately mischaracterized a landmark achievement by US law enforcement against the Sinaloa cartel as “spying” operation, continuing his efforts to undo decades of Mexican American cooperation. The situation is the opposite of “working fine” by any objective measure.

[Vanoi]

Are you suggesting that they are going to make up for an 80% loss in firearm imports by doing what exactly, stealing more from the Colombian police and military? LOL. Colombia would have to lose a LOT of guns for that to make any kind of sense. It would be a paltry return compared to 80% of what they are used to receiving from the US. The US is clearly the biggest and most reliable manufacturer of weapons for them. Cutting that off would be an enormous stumbling block for the cartel, and would be one serious avenue for combatting them if you are not serious about ending the failed and so-called War on Drugs.

Cutting them off? You didn't read the article? Again they are aware and will adapt. If you bothered to read they source their weapons from much more than just Colombia.

I don't even think you bothered to even read my post either. I do advocate reducing the amount of guns flowing south of the border, but I realize that cutting gun flow is easier said than done and that cutting gun flow won't dramatically alter the situation in Mexico especially if they can source guns elsewhere.

I'll keep saying this over and over. You have to actually combat the groups. Half ass measures are not going to work.

[Sir Adrian]

Are you suggesting that they are going to make up for an 80% loss in firearm imports by doing what exactly, stealing more from the Colombian police and military?

The reason cartels arm themselves with weapons smuggled directly from the US is because it is the easiest and cheapest way to get weapons, not because it is the only way to get weapons. There are plenty of gun runners in this world.

[Roma_Victrix]

The reason cartels arm themselves with weapons smuggled directly from the US is because it is the easiest and cheapest way to get weapons, not because it is the only way to get weapons. There are plenty of gun runners in this world.

Of course it's not the only way, but if you suddenly remove the cheapest and easiest way for them to acquire weapons, it would be an enormous shock to the system. I would be astonished if they made up that 80% loss of firearms + ammo within a year or even more. It would also be more prohibitively expensive for them to acquire firearms elsewhere in Latin America or outside the Western Hemisphere, to say nothing about it being riskier. They're certainly not going to get them from Canada. LOL.

Cutting them off? You didn't read the article? Again they are aware and will adapt. If you bothered to read they source their weapons from much more than just Colombia.

Yeah, adapt while scrambling desperately to find another source for who knows how many years to make up that sudden 80% loss. They could turn to various arms dealers operating in Latin America, but that would be more expensive, time consuming, and riskier overall than just smuggling it across the wide open expanse of the US border with Mexico. That's especially the case if they had to constantly deal with port authorities and the Mexican navy (a story of which I highlighted above for your convenience and for others).

[Lord Thesaurian]

Of course it's not the only way, but if you suddenly remove the cheapest and easiest way for them to acquire weapons, it would be an enormous shock to the system. I would be astonished if they made up that 80% loss of firearms + ammo within a year or even more.

Considering this 80% figure you’re citing refers to guns smuggled from the US to Mexico, what law would you pass or amend to create this “80% loss of firearms and ammo within a year?”

Also, it says alot that you consider current US efforts to stop illegal weapons trafficking insufficient but Mexican efforts to stop drugs and illegal immigrants from flowing in the other direction is “working fine.” Surely this would all be solved if Mexico “just cut off” drugs and migrants, reducing the demand for guns? Or, to borrow your viewpoint on drugs, just decriminalize any and all gun possession and trafficking so gun criminals don’t feel stigmatized, right?

[Sir Adrian]

Of course it's not the only way, but if you suddenly remove the cheapest and easiest way for them to acquire weapons, it would be an enormous shock to the system. I would be astonished if they made up that 80% loss of firearms + ammo within a year or even more. It would also be more prohibitively expensive for them to acquire firearms elsewhere in Latin America or outside the Western Hemisphere, to say nothing about it being riskier. They're certainly not going to get them from Canada. LOL.

They won't lose 80% of their firearms. They will still get guns from the US, only instead of getting most of them directly across the border they will use an intermediary, like say an African warzone. It's going to be a repeat of when the US blocked the Caribbean Colombian cocaine highway. They just found another route, one that was more expensive and time consuming, true, but volume did not decrease.

Besides if the US has the power to police the border to such an extent that it can completely block all weapons shipments as you are implying, why don't they block the drugs coming in. Hurting the income will be a much bigger shock to the system than losing out on some guns.