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Thread: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

  1. #61

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    You should have no problem citing the election law Trump conspired to break then.
    New York Laws
    PEN - Penal
    Part 3 - Specific Offenses
    Title K - Offenses Involving Fraud
    Article 175 - Offenses Involving False Written Statements
    175.10 - Falsifying Business Records in the First Degree.



    Universal Citation: NY Penal L § 175.10 (2019)

    § 175.10 Falsifying business records in the first degree.
    A person is guilty of falsifying business records in the first degree
    when he commits the crime of falsifying business records in the second
    degree, and when his intent to defraud includes an intent to commit
    another crime or to aid or conceal the commission thereof.

    Falsifying business records in the first degree is a class E felony.


    And here's the indictment you were ordered not to read: https://apnews.com/article/trump-ind...t-640043319549

    So now you can stop believing that all of Trump's woes are because he's being persecuted by a "deep state" out to get him for his character, courage, compassion, and good looks and accept that-just like the Trump University and Trump Foundation scams-Trump's legal troubles are a direct result of actions he took knowing they were illegal.

  2. #62

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oh, you are right. According to the dictionary, murder is unlawful killing.

    OK then, a mass killer.
    While there "is no universal definition of mass violence crimes, mass murders or mass killings", there "are three different definitions provided by the Federal government":
    Congress: "“The term ‘mass killings’ means three or more killings in a single incident” that occur in a ‘public place’.”
    "According to the FBI, the term “mass murder” has been defined generally as a multiple homicide incident in which four or more victims are murdered..."
    "AEAP guidelines define an act of mass violence as “an intentional violent crime that results in physical, emotional, or psychological injury to a sufficiently large number of people and significantly increases the burden of victim assistance and compensation for the responding jurisdiction..."
    https://www.nmvvrc.org/learn/about-mass-violence/
    Rittenhouse killing two people in self-defence does not fit any of those...

  3. #63

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    So now you can stop believing that all of Trump's woes are because he's being persecuted by a "deep state" out to get him for his character, courage, compassion, and good looks and accept that-just like the Trump University and Trump Foundation scams-Trump's legal troubles are a direct result of actions he took knowing they were illegal.
    Do you know what an election law is? I’m beginning to have my doubts. But you’ve done a nice job illustrating what I’ve already said a dozen times: “falsifying business records” is misdemeanor, unless the intent is to commit a crime in the process. I ask you again: Which election law did Trump conspire to break by allegedly committing these misdemeanors?
    Last edited by Legio_Italica; April 10, 2023 at 07:38 AM.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  4. #64
    Ramashan's Avatar Artifex
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    @Lord Thesaurian

    Bragg would not have added the "... order to commit a crime." unless he had something to that was a crime to accuse Trump of. According to Bragg's own words these are;

    Asked by reporters following Trump's arraignment what other crimes Trump allegedly committed by falsifying the business records, Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg said the indictment doesn't specify those details "because the law does not so require." But Bragg highlighted several laws he said are potentially applicable to the case, including New York state election law that makes it a crime to conspire to promote a candidacy by unlawful means; laws that prohibit false statements, including statements that were planned to be made to tax authorities; and federal election contribution limits.
    Now, is this a strong case? Absolutely not. But it's going to be up to a Prosecutor to prove and a jury to decide.

    One thing to consider though, the misdemeanors that Trump is charged with, falsifying business documents, which is kind of a well established fact that he did so, can come with jail time if a convicted and sentenced to the extreme. Regardless of the severity, jail time is not off the table.

    New York Misdemeanor punishment: After a misdemeanor conviction, the judge may sentence the defendant to some combination of any or all of the following: incarceration, probation, and a fine.
    Under the Patronage of Lord Condormanius

  5. #65

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramashan View Post
    @Lord Thesaurian

    Bragg would not have added the "... order to commit a crime." unless he had something to that was a crime to accuse Trump of. According to Bragg's own words these are;
    “I’m sure the king wouldn’t chop my head off without a good reason. He is appointed by God after all.”
    Now, is this a strong case? Absolutely not. But it's going to be up to a Prosecutor to prove and a jury to decide.
    Please read the Sixth Amendment to the Constitution.
    One thing to consider though, the misdemeanors that Trump is charged with, falsifying business documents, which is kind of a well established fact that he did so, can come with jail time if a convicted and sentenced to the extreme. Regardless of the severity, jail time is not off the table.

    New York Misdemeanor punishment: After a misdemeanor conviction, the judge may sentence the defendant to some combination of any or all of the following: incarceration, probation, and a fine.
    Trump isn’t being prosecuted for falsifying business records. He’s being prosecuted for falsifying business records in a conspiracy to rig the 2016 election. If the prosecution of a former POTUS for election law violations were a routine matter of law enforcement, letting the accused and the public know what those violations are would logically be a bare minimum standard. But it’s not about law enforcement. It’s about making an example of the guy who took on the Party and won. It’s unlikely Bragg would have the jurisdiction to prosecute federal election law violations in the first place, which is probably why he didn’t specify.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  6. #66

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Do you know what an election law is? I’m beginning to have my doubts. But you’ve done a nice job illustrating what I’ve already said a dozen times: “falsifying business records” is misdemeanor, unless the intent is to commit a crime in the process. I ask you again: Which election law did Trump conspire to break by allegedly committing these misdemeanors?
    You appear unfamiliar with how proof works when you make an assertion. It's up to you to prove Bragg's case is all lies made up by the evil deep state to persecute poor innocent Trump, not for me to prove it's not. "Nuh-uh Democrats." Isn't proof. Neither is "I don't like it."

    Or to put it another way if I assert that Trump faked Epstein's death and is hiding him at Mar a largo I would need proof to support my assertion. "Anyone who says otherwise is a communist who hates baby Jesus." Wouldn't be proof.

    What I'd like to know is why you will defend Trump no matter what? And don't bother to deny it's all about him. Would you go this far to defend Cruz? McConnell? Graham?

  7. #67
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    Trump isn’t being prosecuted for falsifying business records. He’s being prosecuted for falsifying business records in a conspiracy to rig the 2016 election.
    No, he is prosecuted for falsifying business records. His motive doesn't matter, only whether he is guilty or not for the act. Whether he illegally used campaign funds, whether he tax evaded and whether he falsified business records is what matters.
    Whether he did it as hush money, or because he thought it will bring back Elvis Presley to life, doesn't matter.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  8. #68

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, he is prosecuted for falsifying business records. His motive doesn't matter, only whether he is guilty or not for the act. Whether he illegally used campaign funds, whether he tax evaded and whether he falsified business records is what matters.
    Whether he did it as hush money, or because he thought it will bring back Elvis Presley to life, doesn't matter.
    As pointed out previously and bolded several times from different sources, it absolutely matters. Falsifying business records in order to rig the election is what the prosecution has to prove. The entire prosecution hinges on that question.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  9. #69
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So... nope, I will let my horses run free like the wind.
    That's how your horses end up falling off a cliff.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, he is prosecuted for falsifying business records. His motive doesn't matter, only whether he is guilty or not for the act. Whether he illegally used campaign funds, whether he tax evaded and whether he falsified business records is what matters.
    Not true. His motive is the whole point. Falsifying business records by itself is a misdemeanor, in New York those have a statute of limitations of about 2 years if I recall. This happened 8 years ago. Aka it's not prosecutable. The only way to prosecute is to turn it into a crime and to do that you need to prove it was done with the motive of perpetrating a different crime. So the motive is the whole point. Trump though is not being prosecuted for that other crime, nor has he been convicted for it. So how can Bragg take it as a given that he committed it? Even more considering the crime in question (election tampering) is a federal crime, not a state crime, Bragg couldn't prosecute even if he tried.

    This case is ridiculously flimsy.

  10. #70
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Not true. His motive is the whole point. Falsifying business records by itself is a misdemeanor, in New York those have a statute of limitations of about 2 years if I recall. This happened 8 years ago. Aka it's not prosecutable.
    The only way to prosecute is to turn it into a crime and to do that you need to prove it was done with the motive of perpetrating a different crime. So the motive is the whole point. Trump though is not being prosecuted for that other crime, nor has he been convicted for it. So how can Bragg take it as a given that he committed it? Even more considering the crime in question (election tampering) is a federal crime, not a state crime, Bragg couldn't prosecute even if he tried.

    This case is ridiculously flimsy.
    Ohhhh... That is what you and Legio meant.
    Yeah, I haven't thought of that.

    I would argue that the point is to prove he has done something naughty and smear him. But yes, good luck proving that the hush money were part of a crime.

    But is the stature of limitations over falsifying business records and tax evasion so low?! Just 2 years?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  11. #71
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Just 2 years?
    You wouldn't want to hamper businesses from doing "business" now would you?

    Anyway yes, the statute of limitations for misdemeanors in New York seems to be 2 years. At least according to: https://www.nycourts.gov/courthelp/g...SOLchart.shtml

  12. #72
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    While there "is no universal definition of mass violence crimes, mass murders or mass killings", there "are three different definitions provided by the Federal government":
    Congress: "“The term ‘mass killings’ means three or more killings in a single incident” that occur in a ‘public place’.”

    Rittenhouse killing two people in self-defence does not fit any of those...
    No, RH killing two people while he was out looking for trouble, doesn't fit the definitions of a country with several mass shootings per week.
    But it is a mass killing whatever the FBI classifies it as.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    You wouldn't want to hamper businesses from doing "business" now would you?

    Anyway yes, the statute of limitations for misdemeanors in New York seems to be 2 years. At least according to: https://www.nycourts.gov/courthelp/g...SOLchart.shtml
    Wait, I see way worse things there with absurdly low Stature of limitations...
    "Medical malpractice: 2 1/2 years. Wrongful death: 2 years from death"
    So... you treat someone wrongly, giving him crappy pills and rosewater with a bit of snake-oil for stage 2 cancer, things that don't work and you know they don't work. The patient dies a few months later because untreated cancer untreated can kill.
    And 2 years later, you are free as a bird.

    "Child sexual abuse: until the victim turns 28"

    WHAT THE... ?!?!?
    But if the parent plants a bullet on the head of the teacher that seduced his 14 years old daughter, then there's no stature of limitations... <=== I don't condone nor promote such action. I just find it unfair for the criminal part to be erased after the victim turns 28.
    Last edited by alhoon; April 11, 2023 at 07:28 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  13. #73

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    No, RH killing two people while he was out looking for trouble, doesn't fit the definitions of a country with several mass shootings per week.
    But it is a mass killing whatever the FBI classifies it as.
    Noting that you left in the Congressional definition.
    Whatever the FBI, Congress or the AEAP guidelines classify it as...
    It did not fit under the one you left in..

    That is it is a "mass killing" under your definition, which will be whatever is convenient for you.
    Fortunately, your definition is worthless.

  14. #74
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But it is a mass killing whatever the FBI classifies it as.
    To be fair, mass translates to a large number of people. Two is not a large number of people, it is... two.

    But this is kind of besides the point of this topic, so let's move on.

  15. #75

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    https://www.newsweek.com/donald-trum...uments-1798733

    "The Special 'Prosecutor' is harassing and threatening my people over the Document's Hoax, while NOTHING is being done with respect to Crooked Joe Biden's MANY TIMES MORE Documents, especially those stored in CHINATOWN & Delaware. Another RUSSIA, RUSSIA, RUSSIA, style Witch Hunt. Under the Presidential Records Act, I have done everything right, except that I probably should not have returned documents until it was ALL settled. I had every right to have them, with the right, also, to Declassify..." Trump wrote on Friday.
    I hope his lack of remorse will be taken into account here and in his other trials when he is sentenced.

  16. #76

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2353684.html

    The Department of Justice is preparing to ask a Washington, DC grand jury to indict former president Donald Trump for violating the Espionage Act and for obstruction of justice as soon as Thursday, adding further weight to the legal baggage facing Mr Trump as he campaigns for his party’s nomination in next year’s presidential election.
    The Independent has learned that prosecutors are ready to ask grand jurors to approve an indictment against Mr Trump for violating a portion of the US criminal code known as Section 793, which prohibits “gathering, transmitting or losing” any “information respecting the national defence”.
    I hope this time he isn't treated with kid gloves when he is indicted. I want to see him cuffed like the common criminal he is.

  17. #77
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/w...-b2353684.html



    I hope this time he isn't treated with kid gloves when he is indicted. I want to see him cuffed like the common criminal he is.
    Well, an image of him in cuffs will send a lot of MAGA's reaching for their wallets and not-few of them reaching for their guns. Be careful what you wish for.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
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  18. #78

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    If anyone else would have done what he did
    We’d be in jail within days

    And they asked and begged for those docs
    He kept hiding them
    And lying.

    So the comparison
    With Biden and Hilary
    FAKE NEWS
    REBEMBER?

    Lock him up

  19. #79

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Well, an image of him in cuffs will send a lot of MAGA's reaching for their wallets
    Good. Money spent to keep Trump and his slimy brood living an upper-crust lifestyle is money the base is not spending on guns, meth, opioids, and to get more Republicans elected.

    and not-few of them reaching for their guns. Be careful what you wish for.
    No need to worry, the FBI has been locking MAGAs up at a rapid clip. They all have a strange compulsion to announce their violent intentions on social media, and are always shocked to find that the FBI can see their public posts.

  20. #80
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    I really do wonder, if Trump was to be re-elected, would the democrats then storm the capitol in protest? Even more so, would it then be justifiable resistance to the tyrant? The polarisation in the US doesn't seem to be showing any signs of easing.

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