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Thread: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Today, Former president Trump has been indicted by NY grand jury. He is accused of spending money from his campaign as hush money and falsifying records to do it, although the specific charges and allegations are not revealed as of the time of this post.

    Trump is the first former PotUS to be indicted. Whether he will also be the first to be convicted remains to be seen.

    In my opinion, this is something a great many Republican party high-ups were praying for. The indictment of Trump would weaken his chances to be the party nominee and STILL mobilize his base to come out again in 2024 and vote for anyone with an R. If Trump is convicted, I think (I could be wrong) that he won't be allowed to be elected which means that the Republican party would finally be free to put someone else without alienating millions of his diehard fans.
    It remains to be seen how QAnon followers will react to this and if we will see violence in USA. Trump is now officially charged so his followers may become angrier.

    I would also like to discuss where things go from here.
    The trial will take some time, I think. Which means the campaign would be at full swing before this ends.
    If Trump is cleared, he will seek revenge, that is a given. I also expect the democrats to start rioting in protest.
    If Trump is convicted, I don't believe he will be in prison, I believe it will be house arrest while he will still be protected by his secret service detail. I hope they won't let him use his influence to contact people and call for violence.

    What do you guys think?
    Will Trump be convicted or not? Will this indictment help his campaign or not? If cleared do you think we will see large riots? If he is CONVICTED do you think we will see terrorist attacks?
    If convicted, do you think he will go to prison or just House Arrest? What would "House Arrest" mean for an ex-pres?
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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    I like to think of it this way:
    F=G(m1m2)/r^2, and Trump's (political) mass, say m1, had become too large when compared to that of the system, m2, he was in, so effects from the pull were very visible on both.
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
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    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    It seems that the Trump derangement syndrome is still going strong. I'll put it like this, Trump is most definitely responsible for all kinds of nasty. Including, unsurprisingly for a US president, war crimes. He is being accused of none of this. Instead, they come at him for a topic that is both lurid and rather minor. Considering he is running for president, I can't think of this as being independent either. In my opinion, this will simply sharpen the divide and backfire on the Democrats. Even if they manage to get rid of Trump, someone who is Trumpian but less ridiculous, like DeSantis, would simply more easily step in.

    An interesting take:
    https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/2...trump-problem/

    BTW, such moves, simply make the ridicule coming from the Republican side that much more plausible if anything:
    https://babylonbee.com/news/manhatta...ss-tag-in-1997
    https://babylonbee.com/news/democrat...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-im...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-re...-is-just-trump

  4. #4

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Will Trump be convicted or not?
    He in all likelihood will be as these were the same charges that sent Cohen to jail, done on Trump's orders. That and there is a lot of talk that the former CFO of Trump Org Allen Weisselberg has turned state's evidence in this and his other legal problems with the state and city of New York.

    Will this indictment help his campaign or not?
    It will not make a lick of difference either way. Those who don't support him by now never will, and those who still support him would do so even if he bragged about performing abortions while urinating on the flag and the Bible.

    If cleared do you think we will see large riots?
    Doubt, more than likely resignation that rich white Republicans truly are a class of hereditary aristocrats above the law.

    If he is CONVICTED do you think we will see terrorist attacks?
    Absolutely. We saw attacks after the FBI merely executed a search warrant. His remaining followers think he's a messianic superhero fighting the very embodiment of evil in the form of Democrats, Hispanics and LGBTQ+. If Trump were convicted and was facing time they would conclude everything was hopeless and they had nothing left to live for so they might as well take down as many people as they can. So expect mass shootings, bombings and family murder-suicides.

    If convicted, do you think he will go to prison or just House Arrest? What would "House Arrest" mean for an ex-pres?
    I think he will force the authority's hand and end up in prison.

    At first he will be released on bail, but I'd bet it won't be long before he's caught trying to flee the country or making threats on social media against the officials involved, and his bail is revoked.

    Since he is egotistical and belligerent he won't listen to his lawyers when they tell him to shut up. He will spend the entire trial demanding the judge be arrested for something insane, or declaring that the law doesn't apply to him, rather than mounting a defense. He will undoubtedly lie his head off under oath and get a few perjury charges added on, and run his mouth at the judge and end up gagged and slapped with CoC charges.

  5. #5
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Usually I find your predictions far-fetched Coughdrop addict BUT...
    Trump saying the judge currently trying him should be arrested is not beyond the realm of possibility.
    Trump getting slapped with a contempt of court is a very very real possibility. After all, Trump is absolutely in contempt of the court (or the entire institution of justice, or lets be honest, the concept of justice itself). Whether he will be allowed to run his mouth to the point that even an ex-Pres with tens of millions of fanatics (thousands of them ready to spill blood for him) will be hit with Contempt of Court I don't know but I honestly doubt he will show much respect to the system.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It seems that the Trump derangement syndrome is still going strong. I'll put it like this, Trump is most definitely responsible for all kinds of nasty. Including, unsurprisingly for a US president, war crimes. He is being accused of none of this. Instead, they come at him for a topic that is both lurid and rather minor. Considering he is running for president, I can't think of this as being independent either. In my opinion, this will simply sharpen the divide and backfire on the Democrats. Even if they manage to get rid of Trump, someone who is Trumpian but less ridiculous, like DeSantis, would simply more easily step in.
    I don't necessarily disagree Alastor, but:
    Al Capone was brought in on some crap charges too.
    A Trumpian but without the baggage would certainly show up because MAGA controls the system. It is why the primaries should be done with Superdelegates that are appointed instead of pure elections: the guys that show up to vote early on in primaries are the fanatics.
    What we consider war crimes is not what the USA justice system considers as war crimes and even for those as a PotUS, he would have immunity. It is the very reason diplomats and elected politicians have immunity.
    Last edited by alhoon; March 31, 2023 at 06:03 AM.
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    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I don't necessarily disagree Alastor, but:
    Al Capone was brought in on some crap charges too.
    Al Capone was not a former US president currently running for office. I'm sure you will appreciate there are some slight differences here.
    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What we consider war crimes is not what the USA justice system considers as war crimes and even for those as a PotUS, he would have immunity. It is the very reason diplomats and elected politicians have immunity.
    Incorrect. There is international law, there is the charter of the UN, which the US has ratified and so on. Also a president absolutely doesn't have immunity for crimes committed while in office, if he did Nixon would have nothing to fear. Take Soleimani's assassination for example, a blatant breach of international law, that was also very weakly supported by US law and actually investigated. Naturally, the establishment would not go against Trump for any of that, it would be an extremely dangerous precedent to do that, what they seem to misunderstand is that playing petty politics with the law is dangerous also.
    Last edited by Alastor; March 31, 2023 at 06:15 AM.

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    pchalk's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    I would be happy to not see Trump on the ticket, even as someone who leans Republican on many issues. One thing I beleive: innocent or guilty, the result will be based on political consequences like the ones you mentioned and less about the facts of the case.

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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It seems that the Trump derangement syndrome is still going strong. I'll put it like this, Trump is most definitely responsible for all kinds of nasty. Including, unsurprisingly for a US president, war crimes. He is being accused of none of this. Instead, they come at him for a topic that is both lurid and rather minor. Considering he is running for president, I can't think of this as being independent either. In my opinion, this will simply sharpen the divide and backfire on the Democrats. Even if they manage to get rid of Trump, someone who is Trumpian but less ridiculous, like DeSantis, would simply more easily step in.

    An interesting take:
    https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/2...trump-problem/

    BTW, such moves, simply make the ridicule coming from the Republican side that much more plausible if anything:
    https://babylonbee.com/news/manhatta...ss-tag-in-1997
    https://babylonbee.com/news/democrat...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-im...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-re...-is-just-trump
    Its sad that POTUS tried to lynch his VP and Congress said no problem. I guess they have a better shot to get him for the minor cover up.

    Maybe its trying to paint him as a tabloid loser by pitting against a figure more at his level?
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  9. #9
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Al Capone was not a former US president currently running for office. I'm sure you will appreciate there are some slight differences here.
    Incorrect. There is international law, there is the charter of the UN, which the US has ratified and so on. Also a president absolutely doesn't have immunity for crimes committed while in office, if he did Nixon would have nothing to fear. Take Soleimani's assassination for example, a blatant breach of international law, that was also very weakly supported by US law and actually investigated. Naturally, the establishment would not go against Trump for any of that, it would be an extremely dangerous precedent to do that, what they seem to misunderstand is that playing petty politics with the law is dangerous also.
    As I said... I don't necessarily disagree, Alastor.

    But you make me curious. If Politicians DO NOT have immunity for what OTHER organizations / countries consider as crimes... how can the system work?
    What I mean is... well, what you said. Every last one of the USA presidents have done things that would be illegal in USA. Like killing American citizens without a trial (those that are enemy soldiers and you can find Americans, even few in number, in all battlefields). I am sure there are a few American mercenaries among the dead of ISIS, killed by USA bombs. I kinda recall a drone during the Obama years killing an American Taliban.
    And if we go to what the UN considers crimes I am 90% sure that the 2nd Iraq War that was totally about the WMDs that were never found was illegal.

    And of course, it is not only USA. I am pretty sure China has broken a few dozen UN laws. Or Myanmar with the genocide of the Rohingya (under that Myanmar president with the nobel peace prize). The former President of Myanmar has been detained during the coup and charged with a lot of things BUT NOT for her role in the genocide.
    Last edited by alhoon; March 31, 2023 at 08:23 AM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Kyriakos's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    It seems that the Trump derangement syndrome is still going strong. I'll put it like this, Trump is most definitely responsible for all kinds of nasty. Including, unsurprisingly for a US president, war crimes. He is being accused of none of this. Instead, they come at him for a topic that is both lurid and rather minor. Considering he is running for president, I can't think of this as being independent either. In my opinion, this will simply sharpen the divide and backfire on the Democrats. Even if they manage to get rid of Trump, someone who is Trumpian but less ridiculous, like DeSantis, would simply more easily step in.

    An interesting take:
    https://consortiumnews.com/2023/03/2...trump-problem/

    BTW, such moves, simply make the ridicule coming from the Republican side that much more plausible if anything:
    https://babylonbee.com/news/manhatta...ss-tag-in-1997
    https://babylonbee.com/news/democrat...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/putin-im...ical-opponents
    https://babylonbee.com/news/biden-re...-is-just-trump
    Probably to accuse Trump on purely political actions would open a can of worms for non-Trump US politicians, who don't want that.
    Still, this specific accusation obviously is only convenient in the short-term, much like other indirect attempts to ban parties (to some respect, in the US the candidate can be seen as a party, due to differences in the system when compared to most european ones).
    Λέων μεν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δε βούς, ἄνθρωπος δε νῷι
    "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
    Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC










  11. #11
    Alastor's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But you make me curious. If Politicians DO NOT have immunity for what OTHER organizations / countries consider as crimes... how can the system work?
    What I mean is... well, what you said. Every last one of the USA presidents have done things that would be illegal in USA. Like killing American citizens without a trial (those that are enemy soldiers and you can find Americans, even few in number, in all battlefields). I am sure there are a few American mercenaries among the dead of ISIS, killed by USA bombs. I kinda recall a drone during the Obama years killing an American Taliban.
    And if we go to what the UN considers crimes I am 90% sure that the 2nd Iraq War that was totally about the WMDs that were never found was illegal.
    Might makes right. There are arrest warrants pending against Trump both from Iraq and Iran. Who will dare execute them?

    As for Trump being indicted by the US itself for those more serious crimes, the answer is lack of political expediency, or as put by Kyriakos:
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Probably to accuse Trump on purely political actions would open a can of worms for non-Trump US politicians, who don't want that.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Considering he is running for president, I can't think of this as being independent either. In my opinion, this will simply sharpen the divide and backfire on the Democrats. Even if they manage to get rid of Trump, someone who is Trumpian but less ridiculous, like DeSantis, would simply more easily step in.
    Gotta agree with you. Not only the charge was tiny compared to what suposed Mueller special investigation was suposed to find, the fact there were 8 years, or 4 years counting time when Biden was in office, to bring this charge of him election period, it will be in the head of everyone that there may have been political motivation for the indictment as the top priority, regardless of what happened.
    Last edited by fkizz; March 31, 2023 at 09:35 AM.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    Al Capone was not a former US president currently running for office. I'm sure you will appreciate there are some slight differences here.
    Spiro Agnew pleaded no contest to a felony while he was Vice President. So. There's that.
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    I imagine the other billionaires are sick of Trumps antics and want to trip him up, but use as low grade a charge as they can because you can't have a precedent of rich people facing too many consequences.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Kyriakos View Post
    Probably to accuse Trump on purely political actions would open a can of worms for non-Trump US politicians, who don't want that.
    Still, this specific accusation obviously is only convenient in the short-term, much like other indirect attempts to ban parties (to some respect, in the US the candidate can be seen as a party, due to differences in the system when compared to most european ones).
    More practically, I don't think a state court would be able to issue an indictment for the actions of a President in their capacity as such. That would imply they have authority over the actions of the federal executive branch, which of course they don't.

  16. #16
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    It remains to be seen how QAnon followers will react to this and if we will see violence in USA. Trump is now officially charged so his followers may become angrier.

    I would also like to discuss where things go from here.
    The trial will take some time, I think. Which means the campaign would be at full swing before this ends.
    If Trump is cleared, he will seek revenge, that is a given. I also expect the democrats to start rioting in protest.
    If Trump is convicted, I don't believe he will be in prison, I believe it will be house arrest while he will still be protected by his secret service detail. I hope they won't let him use his influence to contact people and call for violence.
    Democrats are not going to riot over a failure of prosecutors to prove he committed felony fraud in hush money payments to a porn star. Firstly, centrist normie Dems do not riot and rarely protest unless it's a boringly civil woman's march or something with an average crowd age of 60. Suburban soccer moms and retirees who watch MSNBC all day do not have the energy or wherewithal to engage in a riot, but a huge amount of Gen-X and Boomer posts on Facebook are guaranteed (same for older conservatives on the opposite side of the spectrum). Meanwhile, truly lefty Dems and socialists only protest and riot when it comes to things like police brutality and the BLM movement, preserving unions and worker's rights, Occupy Wall Street, LGBTQ rights, abortion and reproductive rights, etc. Let's say Bernie Sanders was indicted and then convicted of a crime. I'd be shocked if some nationwide protest movement materialized as a consequence.

    Unlike the far left, however, the far right has proven that they will rally around a strongman idol like Trump, as seen on January 6th, 2021 and other smaller instances. However, a lot of people on the far right were convicted for engaging in the riot on Capitol Hill, so even they are squeamish about showing up in the streets. The most racist elements of the far right definitely protest at places like Charlottesville when it involves stuff like municipalities taking down statues of Confederate generals from the Civil War. The Oath Keeper terrorist militia types occasionally threaten to kidnap Democratic governors like Whitmer. The average suburban conservative centrist, however, is not going to riot and are similar enough to centrist Dems. These constituencies frequent the same restaurants and golf at the same country club (and their favorite politicians, while seemingly diametrically opposed, feed from the same donor pig trough).

    I think you would probably be more likely to see far right types committing acts of terrorism over drag queen shows than Trump being indicted. One thing is for sure, though, it will definitely rally Trump's base who will then be eager to vote for DeSantis or anyone else filling his shoes if convicted and knocked out of the race. Others here who have mentioned that are totally correct. It's hard to imagine the lackluster uncharismatic figures of Pence or Haley garnering any support above 15%, though. DeSantis might have been wounded by the legal battle with Disney recently, but he is not to be underestimated.

  17. #17
    Ferdiad's Avatar Patricius
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Realstically this indictiment is nothing, the real thing is if he gets indicted over his actions for trying to tamper with the election in Georgia.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Coughdrop addict View Post
    Since he is egotistical and belligerent he won't listen to his lawyers when they tell him to shut up. He will spend the entire trial demanding the judge be arrested for something insane, or declaring that the law doesn't apply to him, rather than mounting a defense. He will undoubtedly lie his head off under oath and get a few perjury charges added on, and run his mouth at the judge and end up gagged and slapped with CoC charges.
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ind...185502531.html

    That didn't take long, did it?

    The man at the center of the storm [...] employed a dubious legal strategy of attacking the judge who will preside over the case against him in New York.

    "The Judge 'assigned' to my Witch Hunt Case, a 'Case' that has NEVER BEEN CHARGED BEFORE, HATES ME. His name is Juan Manuel Marchan, was hand picked by Bragg & the Prosecutors, & is the same person who 'railroaded' my 75 year old former CFO, Allen Weisselberg, to take a 'plea' deal (Plead GUILTY, even if you are not, 90 DAYS, fight us in Court, 10 years (life!) in jail," Trump wrote. "He strong armed Allen, which a judge is not allowed to do, & treated my companies, which didn't 'plead,' VICIOUSLY. APPEALING!"



    + Greene declared Friday that she was heading to New York on Tuesday to exercise her constitutional right to protest the indictment that she considers unconstitutional.
    No surprises there. Fellow posters, do you think she will do something stupid like incite violence and get hit with accusations and end up charged in crimes too?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  19. #19

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by Laser101 View Post
    More practically, I don't think a state court would be able to issue an indictment for the actions of a President in their capacity as such. That would imply they have authority over the actions of the federal executive branch, which of course they don't.
    Business indictment is literally in the realm of State Court and that is the rumors this is lining up as. 30+ indictments. And keep in mind, we are a country that runs down politicians that are running for office, in office, and retired from office. There is only one single exception and only at the federal level. The President is immune from investigation at the federal level. And only by policy. No Congress has ever passed a law regarding this. They certainly have never passed a law regarding living president not in office. And once they are out of office they are definitely not immune because the really are not the President. So New York kept investigating.

    Guess what we got.

    Keep in mind. Spiro Agnew. What does a nation do if a high level executive is doing this type of crap? One possible idea is to offer a plea bargain for which they'd just stay out of office with the utmost leniency. The more corrupt or unstable the White House occupant the greater his bargaining power. Only if you let my client go; will you be allowed to pry the powers from his hands. A powerful chip, but with an expiration date. At noon Inauguration Day, he loses that leverage. He also loses his Attorney General(I can go into a lot of crap about William Barr, but that is not the point of this post).

    In October 1973 Agnew resigned from the Vice Presidency and plead guilty to one count of tax evasion. Keep in mind that this charge is... literally about business. He didn't want to lose his money. That is the FELONY he plead no contest to. Any State, nevermind the Federal Government, can nail you for tax evasion. If you live in the United States you pay taxes on the State and Federal Level.

    Agnew's corruption began when he what a Baltimore County executive and continued through when he was Governor of Maryland. He used his offices for bribery and extortion, steering government contracts, and exchanging money. After he was elected Vice President, the payments continued. Cash was delivered to the White House itself of all places. EVIDENCE.

    What was to be done? Impeachment? Or Indictment? The DoJ was literally nailing down on him. Agnew sought an impeachment procedure so he could turn it into a cumbersume political process(take note re: Trump; don't do this unless you have the Senate in your pocket). Speaker Albert declined, saying the criminal process should proceed. (Ironically, Solicitor General Robert Bork rejected Agnew's argument that the sitting VP could not be indicted).

    Now. How do you end this? AG Elliot Richardson went for a plea pargain so favorable that the younger lawyers who had been investigating were probably understandably tempted to quit. Larger context. Nixon's Watergate scandal was also exploding, and Nixon imploding. It was imperative that Agnew be out of the line of succession. This gave Agnew enormous bargaining power. He used it.

    He spent the rest of his life golfing and occasionally talking to people that called him. But he wasn't exactly big R anymore.

    Apply this to Trump. Finance case. Also. Voting case. Also. Classification Case. Also. Jan6 Case.

    Trump has to balance this crap. Execpt. He's already started calling the judge names. What do YOU think is going to really happen?
    Last edited by Gaidin; April 01, 2023 at 01:52 AM.
    One thing is for certain: the more profoundly baffled you have been in your life, the more open your mind becomes to new ideas.
    -Neil deGrasse Tyson

    Let's think the unthinkable, let's do the undoable. Let us prepare to grapple with the ineffable itself, and see if we may not eff it after all.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Lock him up! Former PotUS Trump indicted

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://www.yahoo.com/news/trump-ind...185502531.html

    That didn't take long, did it?






    + Greene declared Friday that she was heading to New York on Tuesday to exercise her constitutional right to protest the indictment that she considers unconstitutional.
    No surprises there. Fellow posters, do you think she will do something stupid like incite violence and get hit with accusations and end up charged in crimes too?
    While it was expected that Trump goes on the attack, I have actually changed my mind about what he might do once he's in court. It will depend on if Trump realizes how much trouble he's in.

    When Trump thinks he has some sort of leverage over someone or they cannot touch him he is extremely smug and belligerent. But on the rare occasion he has no leverage-and actually realizes he doesn't-he becomes a timid mouse. For example with Putin.

    As for Greene I'm sure she'll make herself a public nuisance with lots of noise and calling for the arrests of random strangers, but she is an expert at keeping herself just within the line of what's legal.
    Last edited by Coughdrop addict; April 01, 2023 at 02:41 AM.

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