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Thread: Why did they crucify Jesus?

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Why did they crucify Jesus?

    In today's world does it matter that they crucified an innocent man way back then? I mean we celebrate things like Guy Fawlkes because he set out to blow up Parliament and he was guilty as we know but why Jesus who as Pilate said was innocent yet the Jews demanded His death, why? What is even more baffling is that the Roman soldiers took a delight in adding to His misery on that eventful day, but why? In a few days many if not most of us will be stuffed to the hilt with hot cross buns and many varieties of chocolate eggs but yet how many actually understand and believe why we do it? So, why do we?

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    the Roman soldiers took a delight in adding to His misery on that eventful day, but why?
    Did they? Hearsay.

    In today's world does it matter that they crucified an innocent man way back then?
    Got an independent record of that? In any case the Recognized authorities of Jews said he was guilty. A roman official was always going to take the path of try pick the option that was in his view least likely to stir up issues.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    conon394,

    So, rather than answer my question you do what you always do best and that is to stir the pot and not always successfully. According to what is written by witnesses, yes, they did take delight in His misery and pain.

    What could be more independent than Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as they described what happened? I mean they were there or thereabouts and were witness to the events, you weren't.

    Therefore my guess is that you don't give a hoot one way or another coming from a country that has just seen more innocents killed as if it were normal.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    What could be more independent than Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as they described what happened? I mean they were there or thereabouts and were witness to the events, you weren't.
    Independent? They were followers of Jesus. His disciples. That's hardly an independent witness. Even in the more meta-sense the synoptic gospels are known to have heavily influenced one another. So again, not exactly independent.

    Either way, you are asking:
    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    In a few days many if not most of us will be stuffed to the hilt with hot cross buns and many varieties of chocolate eggs but yet how many actually understand and believe why we do it? So, why do we?
    The answer is simple. It's the same reason people participate in most holidays. Because it's fun.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    What could be more independent than Mathew, Mark, Luke and John as they described what happened? I mean they were there or thereabouts and were witness to the events, you weren't.
    Umm the names were applied later and its clear from the text none are the actual people. And none of the early earliest church fathers knew the the later attached names.

    So, rather than answer my question you do what you always do best and that is to stir the pot and not always successfully. According to what is written by witnesses, yes, they did take delight in His misery and pain.

    I did answer your question. What you nominally are citing as witness are supposedly followers of Jesus. You have no independent records. No recorded from anyone who cared not about who Jesus claimed to be. You have 4 texts out of some 40 (and 3 of which are almost mostly copies of each other) that were decided centuries later to be be canonical and the others discarded or lost.


    Therefore my guess is that you don't give a hoot one way or another coming from a country that has just seen more innocents killed as if it were normal.
    You do me a disservice sir. If I could by force of will or selling my soul or via belief in some god or any god or whatever excise the the second amendment from the US constitution I would - or put Alito and his ilk to gun point so as to not treat as facetious and wave away the well regulated militia part of the text as just window dressing I would. That a fair percentage of this country thinks mass shooting with military grade weapons is no different than a bad weather day because they need them some guns is insane I can't deny that and it is beyond me why people - my fellow citizens are able to simply shrug it off as comparable to hitting a deer and busting your car. But its ok to have them (kids) to do active shooter drills in grade school because you know you are only free if you can buy an AR-15 w/o a background check and than go blow away a bunch people to prove that freedom. Or maybe free to have a hand gun and be a bloody idiot to leave it about with a chambered round so a 3 year old can kill a 4 year old sibling - yep American freedom - Madness.
    Last edited by conon394; March 29, 2023 at 07:07 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Alastor,

    Each one of them was not born a follower of Jesus just as aparently you wern't and me for that matter yet these men and women came to follow Him, why? Because the Power in and of His Voice made it so. That has never changed all down through history as we know. His Power is His Gospel which only applies to whom He wills. Oh the Christmas and Easter holidays or Holydays may be fun but aren't they supposed to draw you nearer to God and therefore nearer to your salvation by remembering why they exist?

    conon394,

    Once again I see that you were there and so know exactly who wrote the Gospels? You see it is not the writers who had the power to change people's lives, rather the message and it is that message that is still doing it. Now as for an independent witness to what went on in the days of Jesus may I cite Gibbon in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    They, the Romans, killed a religious leader who spoke of a kingdom that was about to manifest in Palestine with someone other than Caesar in charge. Jesus was a fine and noble rabbi, and not one of the more or less cooperative Temple clique, and that made the Romans doubtful they could maintain order so they killed him.

    There was another Jesus after the time of Jesus of Nazareth, who preached about "a voice from the east, a voice from the west..." who said nothing about any kingdom was brought before the prefect, and he got a beating for his trouble and was released.

    The desires of the Sanhedrin may have been considered but the governor had absolute say in the city and I think the sentence of the Roman prefect in a Roman court, administering a Roman punishment in a Roman province, is an act of the Romans.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Did they? Hearsay.



    Got an independent record of that? In any case the Recognized authorities of Jews said he was guilty. A roman official was always going to take the path of try pick the option that was in his view least likely to stir up issues.
    There's no reliable witness (the three accounts contradict one another) but the most likely one is John who gives plausible details unknown to the other two (technical terms for Pilate's court, a topical description of certain archaeologically attested bath house, physical details like the bloody serum flowing from Jesus' wounds).

    I think it highly plausible the Roman guards abused and assaulted Jesus, Roman justice for non citizens was IIRC pretty harsh.
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Each one of them was not born a follower of Jesus just as aparently you wern't and me for that matter yet these men and women came to follow Him, why?
    Again, to be fair, each one of Al Capone's henchmen was not born his henchman either. We still wouldn't consider them independent or unbiased witnesses in his trial.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Oh the Christmas and Easter holidays or Holydays may be fun but aren't they supposed to draw you nearer to God and therefore nearer to your salvation by remembering why they exist?
    Isn't that a subjective take though? Who decides what brings you closer to God or your salvation. God is unknowable, to assume that sth brings you closer to God is to assume knowledge of God. Even in the Christian context, the gospel is all you have as God's word, I don't think that it is written there what the purpose of Easter or Xmas holidays is. Therefore, I would say having fun is at least as valid a path to salvation as eg prayer.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Alastor,

    That's the thing though that Gid is not unknowable as He is Jesus Christ our Creator Who came into this world as a man to be the Sacrifice for our sins which He did and now awaits His return to finalise all things. One thing is for sure as each one of us at death will discover the truth. Alas for many it will be too late.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    There's no reliable witness (the three accounts contradict one another) but the most likely one is John who gives plausible details unknown to the other two (technical terms for Pilate's court, a topical description of certain archaeologically attested bath house, physical details like the bloody serum flowing from Jesus' wounds).
    Err not so fast the Alexander Romance has plausible and fine details as well don't make it true. More to the point Plato's dialogues about Socrates are rife with incredibly accurate references to Places in Athens and people who were alive and have the physical carved in stone references to prove it. But It is obvious that I reading what not what Socrates said but what Plato tells me Socrates said and did. That Plato is a really great author and complete anti democratic jerk and and of course knows Athens like the back of his hand does not change that fact that no he was not carrying around 50+ wax table notebooks and writing down what Socrates said in short hand. In any case in the Greek Johan is written by a 'we' and cites a source who remains unnamed abut claims to be an eyewitness. In any case its Greek is the product of a very educated Greek speaking/educated author and that would fit none of the actual followers of Jesus by description. In any case the name applied to the Gospel is unknown to the early church fathers (even though they cite Paul and themselves by name) and does not emerge until the 4 canonical gospels are codified as reaction to Marcion and his first attempt at codifying a Christian bible


    I think it highly plausible the Roman guards abused and assaulted Jesus, Roman justice for non citizens was IIRC pretty harsh.
    Perhaps. Or perhaps its just made up to be symmetrical with supposed prophesy in the OT. Its made less probable by say the passage at 18:24. With the solders casting lots for Jesus garments. Which is nonsensical. Its patently invented to reference a Psalm. Roman soldiers even the the auxiliaries that would have been at Pilots command were very well paid indeed and would have no care for the bloody rags of a self imposed poor man. Whomever was responsible for disposing of the dead might but otherwise its the kind of detail that raises incredulity not credibility. An I mean that this is the height of the Roman empire the soldiers paid regularly in good coin and bonus pay and a muster out final lump sum far and above what the the average wage worker might or would ever make. Such that say a 25 year centurion could retire to a villa in Pompeii. The ideal that the rags of Jesus would mean anything to them is well silly unless you need to invent a connection to the OT. These are not Russian mobniks or conscripts you are talking about.
    Last edited by conon394; March 31, 2023 at 11:05 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Now as for an independent witness to what went on in the days of Jesus may I cite Gibbon in his Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.
    Best not to there is a reason you don't cite medical texts as old as Gibbon for your diagnosis - similarly with history. In any case tossing out an author is not a citation. Gibbon is not a credible reference as a historian. To provide context here even something like M I Finney's Ancient Economy although a seminal work in the field and one that still in many ways defines the nature of the debate was originally published in 1973. That is only 50 years ago and yet its only with caution and care that you would cite it since in many cases no matter the eloquence of the man (and the fact that for any student of the ancient economy it is a must read) new data shows him to be simply wrong in many cases and his understanding of economics is also often constrained by his choice of theoretical models and he is as historians will in a short work engaged in what you could call polemic and he does cherry pick even the data available at the time.

    Once again I see that you were there and so know exactly who wrote the Gospels? You see it is not the writers who had the power to change people's lives, rather the message and it is that message that is still doing it.
    Again the problem remains you seem offended that I treat the Bible as any other work of history.

    We have a problem in this that is frankly beyond resolution - Thus:

    Because the Power in and of His Voice made it so. That has never changed all down through history as we know. His Power is His Gospel which only applies to whom He wills
    You have invested in true faith in the version of Bible you have received. This allows you do many things first and foremost it allows to be dismissive of even other believers in different versions of the Abrahamic faiths who are in practice as earnest as you be they Jews or Catholics or Islamic. But It also means you make wild accusations such as

    Once again I see that you were there and so know exactly who wrote the Gospels?
    I have never made such a claim. In fact I have said that in fact I have no ideal who wrote the the 4 Gospels and neither do you and that they are agglomerations of traditions that are both anonymous and have clearly been edited over time. Which can of course be recognized in the various ending of Mark. Long short or in between.

    What I said is that you have in the NT four select gospels out some over 40 that are what people say Jesus said and did. And of course Paul's letters about Jesus that are his personal revelations having never met Jesus. And than stuff like Acts that again are are what other people said happened.

    You choose to believe the names applied to the canonical gospels. Yet they fail any simple test of the authenticity anyone would apply to to any other text. They are clearly the literary products of well educated Hellenic elites not the kind of people who were following Jesus. The names applied to them are unknown the earliest church father in their writings - again they citied each other and Paul by work they would had cited the gospels by name as well but did not - the traditions existed but not the names.

    The reported text is almost obviously made up. No other classical texts provide such dialogues or sayings other than that it is clear the they are the construction of the author and at best maybe sort of what might have been said.
    Last edited by conon394; March 31, 2023 at 10:57 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    The answer is simple. It's the same reason people participate in most holidays. Because it's fun.
    I for one will enjoy much chocolate and the last opportunity to enjoy spend time in the remainder of summer's last warmth. I'll be enjoying autumn in April, a thing that Jesus couldn't have fathomed. I'll be eating chocolate, a food that was developed by people who believed in many deities and practiced human sacrifice. Again, a food that Jesus couldn't have comprehended.

    Now that I think about it... I guess that is appropriate... seeing as Easter is a celebration of a single human sacrifice.

    The real question is... why do we eat chocolate eggs, rather than chocolate people nailed to chocolate crosses with little chocolate nails?
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    We eat chocolate eggs to honour Freja



    or Volla (continental german fertility goddess).

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    conon394,

    Every person who has been born again of the Spirit of God has met Jesus Christ, some personally, others by vision and others Spiritualy and this applies today just as it did way back when Abel made his offering to God. It is very difficult to explain to someone who has not experienced rebirth the exhuberance and joy that brings. To know that one is no longer accountable for his or her sins is beyond description, like having the heaviest weght removed from one's shoulders yet even that doesn't go without recompense from a God hating world. That is the price Jesus paid for me as He Substituted for me on that cross to give me that new life He promised and so please don't tell me I have never met Him especially as I was taken back in time to see Him on it.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    conon394,

    Every person who has been born again of the Spirit of God has met Jesus Christ, some personally, others by vision and others Spiritually and this applies today just as it did way back when Abel made his offering to God. It is very difficult to explain to someone who has not experienced rebirth the exuberance and joy that brings. To know that one is no longer accountable for his or her sins is beyond description, like having the heaviest weight removed from one's shoulders yet even that doesn't go without recompense from a God hating world. That is the price Jesus paid for me as He Substituted for me on that cross to give me that new life He promised and so please don't tell me I have never met Him especially as I was taken back in time to see Him on it.
    Well I have never questioned your personal faith I believe it to be sincere. But the fact that is entirely closed and internal loop that only you can express and nobody can in any way verify it or experience it. Thus you for example are able to dismiss the faith of others when if fails to conform to your own - the odd thing is your sincere faith leads you to be quite arrogant. In any case you jumped over answering me and simply assert your personal faith there is nothing further to discuss than. But I would I find it strange that a god of supposed infinite power and patience cannot in fact find many ways to draw people of honest faith to itself at different times and places and by many means. To pick one and then only one particular view of that faith and raise it up as the only is as I said to me an act of arrogance of a very human kind.

    But I did mean it don't cite Gibbon it does not serve you well to try and use his history has a kind useful historical reference. Its time has long gone and reading now is a literary venture. That being said if you are going to do Roman History is something you should read and I give serious nods for him noting BS that was the vast pool of made up Christian persecutions. But at the end of the day no matter how good an author he will always be trapped by the evidence he had available and that was vastly smaller then what is available today and as such is superseded in almost ever way and also that history on the scale he attempts will always flounder on the particularities. Of course his enduring legacy is that people still be writing things labeled the rise and fall long of into the future likely as long as people write history - can't take that away. I raise a glass.
    Last edited by conon394; April 01, 2023 at 04:40 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I for one will enjoy much chocolate and the last opportunity to enjoy spend time in the remainder of summer's last warmth. I'll be enjoying autumn in April, a thing that Jesus couldn't have fathomed. I'll be eating chocolate, a food that was developed by people who believed in many deities and practiced human sacrifice. Again, a food that Jesus couldn't have comprehended.

    Now that I think about it... I guess that is appropriate... seeing as Easter is a celebration of a single human sacrifice.

    The real question is... why do we eat chocolate eggs, rather than chocolate people nailed to chocolate crosses with little chocolate nails?
    Well on Christmas eve if you are Polish you share out Oplateek which have nativity images pressed into them. But your right can't recall a chocolate cross on Easter.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The real question is... why do we eat chocolate eggs, rather than chocolate people nailed to chocolate crosses with little chocolate nails?
    I imagine we wouldn't want to normalise the consumption of people. Even of the chocolate kind. Either way, personally, I prefer eating chocolate bunnies instead of chocolate eggs.

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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alastor View Post
    I imagine we wouldn't want to normalise the consumption of people. Even of the chocolate kind. Either way, personally, I prefer eating chocolate bunnies instead of chocolate eggs.
    Meh I not huge fan of quality of most Easter candy and sans much of a sweet tooth I rather make a selection of deviled eggs out the real colored boiled eggs or an egg salad sandwich.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    conon394,

    There are plenty of people having been born again of the Spirit of God can verify my experience by their own. The Word of God is quite plain about the process God uses to bring people to Himself and so one can find men like RC Sproul, John MacArthur, Alistair Begg, John Metcalfe, James White and many others on Youtube preaching about it. There is only one way a person can be saved and that is to be drawn to Jesus Christ through the Gospel, realising how deep in sin they are that their heart is broken by the Spirit making it possible for rebirth to take place. Oh the time, the place, the situation may be different but the experience is just the same.

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Why did they crucify Jesus?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    In today's world does it matter that they crucified an innocent man way back then? I mean we celebrate things like Guy Fawlkes because he set out to blow up Parliament and he was guilty as we know but why Jesus who as Pilate said was innocent yet the Jews demanded His death, why? What is even more baffling is that the Roman soldiers took a delight in adding to His misery on that eventful day, but why? In a few days many if not most of us will be stuffed to the hilt with hot cross buns and many varieties of chocolate eggs but yet how many actually understand and believe why we do it? So, why do we?
    Speaking of which... I thought we celebrated Guy Fawkes' failure to blow up parliament? We don't celebrate the man, we make effigies of him and symbolically burn him to death on a bonfire to celebrate the survival of our institutions over the attempts of a religious zealot to over throw it.

    The irony of that comparison doesn't escape me...
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

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