Tough diplomatic consequences of starting a war... Is something wrong?

[Mr Sneeze]

Hello,
I'm playing an Aragon campaign (H/VH). But I feel a bit frustrated with how Reputation reacts to my actions.
I got myself in that classical situation where a neighboring settlement is underdefended, and the opportunity to seize that settlement is very attractive. To attack of course means declaring war to my neighbor: in my case Leon or Portugal.

So that's what I do, that would be a classical strategy for me in Stainless steel and other mods to sometimes declare war when a nice opportunity of conquest arises.
But here in SSHIP, the consequences of such an action are very grave: my reputation collapses immediately from 'mixed' to 'very untrustworthy'.

Please note that of course I'm not breaking an alliance or a trade rights treaty here. I know that breaking treaties have bad consequences on reputation. Already when playing Stainless Steel, I was aware of how diplomacy works, and I was already relasing prisonners / occupying, etc. But I was also occasionnally declaring war myself by attacking weak settlements, and I never saw such an impact on reputation. It was possible to find a balance and to keep reputation high, with occasionnal agression from time to time.

Because of that, I feel stuck in my game right now, and a bit frustrated. I'm very close to have the territories allowing me to be crowned, but I cannot take them (from Portugal) witout having my reputation being destroyed ! And as Portugal is VERY weak right now, and I'm very strong (and allied with the Papal states), it seems super unlikely that they'll attack.
I tried to make their cities rebel with spies and assassins (sabotage), but didn't succeed.

So, is that normal to have such consequences when declaring war? Am I forced to let my ennemies attack and never start a war?


Basically feeling stuck, any feedback or advice?

[Macaras]

If you attack an army not a city your rep penalty will be lower. If you declare war and in the same turn attack a city or two the rep suffers much more. And during the war release prisoners - especially if you release a big number it will build fast good reputation.

[Mr Sneeze]

Ah interesting, thank you Macaras.
I will experiment following your advice.

[Mr Sneeze]

Hey. This approach of NOT taking a city the first turn of war absolutely worked, thank you. I did manage to conquer Portugal without loss of reputation.

Also, I realized that building a cathedral boosted my reputation!

[Macaras]

Yes, if you declare a war and attack cities at the same turn its considered a sneak attack, so every city attacked immediately will damage your reputation more. I wish there was an option to declare a war through diplomacy and then having even less rep damage, but thats just a mtw2 limitation. The big religious and charity buildings increases your reputation. Also if you assist your ally in the battle or arive with your crusade army to the destination or even more if conquer the crusade target, it increases your rep.

[eyelurker]

Bump the thread to share the sentiment. Have been for 20 turns doing nothing but play nice as Abbasids and my reputation remain mixed while other faction that are not agressive become reliable or even very reliable.

The only aggresion i had is attacking and occupy one minor independent county south of Abbasid and apparently that was enough to ensure my reputation didn't grow.

Slow expansion fit in Western European conquest style but the mad dash fast conquest with crusade and jihad on the loom middle east are punishing to the passive faction.

Edit : Alliance have a rng factor also doesn't help since you have to pray they ask for an alliance or otherwise you have to pay 10.000 gold even if they have peace mindset diplomacy(which is usually ai behavior for asking for an alliance)

[Macaras]

Bump the thread to share the sentiment. Have been for 20 turns doing nothing but play nice as Abbasids and my reputation remain mixed while other faction that are not agressive become reliable or even very reliable.

The only aggresion i had is attacking and occupy one minor independent county south of Abbasid and apparently that was enough to ensure my reputation didn't grow

The players rep will not raise as the AI, just because its the player, the rules cannot be the same otherwise it's too easy. The VH level is full of 'unjust' settings for the player just to make it very hard.

Slow expansion fit in Western European conquest style but the mad dash fast conquest with crusade and jihad on the loom middle east are punishing to the passive faction.

If you participate in a crusade and conquer a settlement you rep will raise and also the relations with catholic, while opposite will happen to the muslim factions. And the opposite for Jihad.

Edit : Alliance have a rng factor also doesn't help since you have to pray they ask for an alliance or otherwise you have to pay 10.000 gold even if they have peace mindset diplomacy(which is usually ai behavior for asking for an alliance)

Alliances are less frequent and will not raise your rep just by being allied. They will raise you relations with that faction though. Again, its against an easy exploit when a player just have multiple allies and waited calmly until his rep get to very trustworthy. This plus the easiness of paying for everything cheaply (alliance but especially ceasefire or settlements) made the game very easy even on very hard. I think if you get used to operate in a difficult settings you will appreciate these changes.

[eyelurker]

The players rep will not raise as the AI, just because its the player, the rules cannot be the same otherwise it's too easy. The VH level is full of 'unjust' settings for the player just to make it very hard.



If you participate in a crusade and conquer a settlement you rep will raise and also the relations with catholic, while opposite will happen to the muslim factions. And the opposite for Jihad.



Alliances are less frequent and will not raise your rep just by being allied. They will raise you relations with that faction though. Again, its against an easy exploit when a player just have multiple allies and waited calmly until his rep get to very trustworthy. This plus the easiness of paying for everything cheaply (alliance but especially ceasefire or settlements) made the game very easy even on very hard. I think if you get used to operate in a difficult settings you will appreciate these changes.

The appeal of playing nice is already pretty low in vanilla total war, you can use to cheese it but honestly one couldn't bother with it and the campaign will still smooth sailing. The diplomacy effectively punish passive gameplay since you cannot raise reputation in peace except by building temple and charity while raising reputation in war are self defeating because a mere act of capturing settlement will quickly decrase your reputation.

Actually capturing settlement at all is a pr nightmare, occupy may delay your reputation decrease but what if you occupy a rebellious town and it's rebel because you don't sack/exterminate them? You have to conquer them again and lost reputation again that you might as well sack/exterminate it to for easier public order.

Man and i'm not even play in very hard, just hard. The diplomacy system is basicly a time ticking 'it's total war time'

[Menethil22]

I mean you could build a gallow after occupying the city, but put the general outside the city for a turn to avoid dread. Next turn let him enter and usually the city will be stable.

Also if possible offer attack on slave or any faction, it slightly help your reputation. Although you can only have 2 diplomat it's better than nothing.

[eyelurker]

I mean you could build a gallow after occupying the city, but put the general outside the city for a turn to avoid dread. Next turn let him enter and usually the city will be stable.

Also if possible offer attack on slave or any faction, it slightly help your reputation. Although you can only have 2 diplomat it's better than nothing.

I have no idea why, probably because of some existing building with law debuff but the Gallows are shown only increase by 20% instead of 40% law.

Not like 40% is sufficient because occupying a rebellious province put my public order to a nice 0% to 10%. They need to be sacked or exterminate so they don't rebel. (Edit : need a popular and experienced general/governor to occupy pronice without issue. Crusade and Jihad also works.)

However as Islam the Jihad mechanic really helps because not only it give me strong bonus to popularity which allowed me to occupy a normally rebellious province it also give Muttatiwa warrior, a valuable heavy infantry that most Muslim in early games are sorely lacking.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I have no idea why, probably because of some existing building with law debuff but the Gallows are shown only increase by 20% instead of 40% law.
Not like 40% is sufficient because occupying a rebellious province put my public order to a nice 0% to 10%. They need to be sacked or exterminate so they don't rebel. (Edit : need a popular and experienced general/governor to occupy pronice without issue. Crusade and Jihad also works.)
However as Islam the Jihad mechanic really helps because not only it give me strong bonus to popularity which allowed me to occupy a normally rebellious province it also give Muttatiwa warrior, a valuable heavy infantry that most Muslim in early games are sorely lacking.

Gallows give 30-40%:

law_bonus bonus 8 requires not event_counter FL_policy_shady_connections 1
law_bonus bonus 10 requires event_counter FL_policy_shady_connections 1
happiness_bonus bonus -2
population_growth_bonus bonus -4
trade_base_income_bonus bonus -2
religion_level bonus -1

Indeed, a good general is the key, absolutely, this is the feature of the mod we're trying to achieve.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[eyelurker]

Gallows give 30-40%:


Indeed, a good general is the key, absolutely, this is the feature of the mod we're trying to achieve.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'm actually confused on that one because it's not just Gallows. Many building have their law bonus cut in half. Again this might be because of building that decrease law rather than an actual bug but i'm not sure.

[Jurand of Cracow]

I'm actually confused on that one because it's not just Gallows. Many building have their law bonus cut in half. Again this might be because of building that decrease law rather than an actual bug but i'm not sure.

I'm not sure what you're confused with. Exchange of happiness into law?
law_bonus bonus 8
happiness_bonus bonus -2

[eyelurker]

I'm not sure what you're confused with. Exchange of happiness into law?
law_bonus bonus 8
happiness_bonus bonus -2

Build gallows i should get 40% law right.

But in my public order screen it only increase the law by 20%. That's what i confuse. It should have increase by 40% not 20% right?

[Jurand of Cracow]

Build gallows i should get 40% law right.
But in my public order screen it only increase the law by 20%. That's what i confuse. It should have increase by 40% not 20% right?

show a screenshot, according to the code it should be 40%

[eyelurker]

show a screenshot, according to the code it should be 40%

Do you have discord? I cannot upload the image to the forum.

[Jurand of Cracow]

Do you have discord? I cannot upload the image to the forum.

We do, but we don't use it, and it's not public...
why can't you just post a link here? to any upload service (not the TWC itself, I never use it), there're many...

[eyelurker]

We do, but we don't use it, and it's not public...
why can't you just post a link here? to any upload service (not the TWC itself, I never use it), there're many...

Everytime i try image hosting site confuse me and since in other mod if i have problem i just use my phone photo(i always use mobile to interact with forum and discord) and never see a need to have an image service. Well there's Imgur but it's banned in my country so i cannot use it.

[eyelurker]

It turns out i don't even need the reputation. I'm playing as Zengids and after early game(and this is still 10-30 turn) ai will never peace out. All of them are not interested no matter how many turns it take i spam the diplomat at them.

One of them decide they actually want peace. For 10000 tribute in 3 turns and it's France after their failed crusade. Maybe i would take it if it's my neighbor but to some Crusader? No.

I'm feeling like a massive idiot not sacking those city right now. The reputation is useless, i'm sitting around Reliable to at worst Dubious and it doesn't matter if the enemy just won't accept peace. I probably should be more loose with money if i want playing the reputation game so i have more ally.