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Thread: ENGLAND

  1. #21
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Upload your save, and I'll tell you.. ok, I'm kidding, here it is:

    Code:
    ;==============================================================================================================================
    ;- England range bowyer --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    		
    		recruit_pool	  "Peasant Archers"			1   0.11	2  0  requires factions { england, } and not event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Peasant Archers"			1   0.07	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter HEAVY_MAIL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Peasant Archers"			1   0.04	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1 and not event_counter HANDGUN 1
    		
    		recruit_pool	  "Urban Crossbow Militia"	1   0.04	2  0  requires factions { england, } and not event_counter lateran_council2 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Urban Crossbow Militia"	1   0.07	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter lateran_council2 1 and not event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Urban Crossbow Militia"	1   0.11	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS 1 and not event_counter PAVISE_SHIELDS 1
    		
    		recruit_pool	  "Longbowmen"		1   0.04	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Longbowmen"		1   0.07	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter FULL_PLATE_ARMOR 1 and not event_counter pike_and_shot 1
    		recruit_pool	  "Longbowmen"		1   0.11	2  0  requires factions { england, } and event_counter pike_and_shot 1
    ;---------------------------- HISTORICAL DATES (for reference while coding) ------------------

    ; Events essential for historical evolution of the Catholic armies (state for 098):
    ; early_era
    ; 16: lateran_council2 : crossbow forbidden by papacy
    ; 40: HANSEATIC_LEAGUE
    ; 90: lateran_council3
    ; 110: battle_hattin
    ; 140: HEAVY_MAIL
    ; 170: lateran_council4
    ; 208: high_era
    ; 200: gunpowder_discovered
    ; 210: MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS
    ; 280: CONCENTRIC_CASTLES
    ; 300: ENGLISH_ARCHERS
    ; 310: TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR
    ; 325: CANNONS
    ; 340: new_era_begins
    ; 380: PAVISE_SHIELDS
    ; 440: HALF_PLATE_ARMOR
    ; 460: HANDGUN
    ; 510: FULL_PLATE_ARMOR
    ; 516: late_era
    ; 540: IMPROVED_METALLURGY
    ; 600: MATCHLOCK
    ; 630: GOTHIC_ARMOR
    ; 800: pike_and_shot
    ; 840: ADV_MATCHLOCK

  2. #22

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Jurand, he said "welsh longbowmen"... And for the rest of english longbowmen? As yeomen or retinue longbowmen?

    I continue to think that the recruitment of the "welsh longbowmen" should be practically at the beginning of the game, they were the creators of the longbow and already in 1132 hundreds of years ago they used it... perhaps it would be an AOR unit centralized in Wales and surroundings and as mercenaries in those areas it could also be done.

    Don't you think that would be historically correct? or maybe for game balance you want to keep it as it is?
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  3. #23
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Jurand, he said "welsh longbowmen"... And for the rest of english longbowmen? As yeomen or retinue longbowmen?

    I continue to think that the recruitment of the "welsh longbowmen" should be practically at the beginning of the game, they were the creators of the longbow and already in 1132 hundreds of years ago they used it... perhaps it would be an AOR unit centralized in Wales and surroundings and as mercenaries in those areas it could also be done.

    Don't you think that would be historically correct? or maybe for game balance you want to keep it as it is?
    Frankly speaking, I don't know. I haven't delved into the English roster evolution yet.

  4. #24

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Jurand, he said "welsh longbowmen"... And for the rest of english longbowmen? As yeomen or retinue longbowmen?
    No, he answered sufficiently. Basic "Longbowmen" will be unlocked turn 300 or 310 depending on if the English Archers event at 300 supersedes the Transitional Armour event at 310 required in the code. I'm guessing Yeoman and Retinue Longbowmen unlock at Half Plate and Full Plate respectively or perhaps the Era events. Either way thanks for the quick answer Jurand, and I agree with your proposal Luna for the Welsh Longbowmen being recruitable from the start of the game, since we know they took a notable toll on the Norman invaders, were incorporated into their armies (eventually), and in 1257 the law for every man to perform 2 hours of archery practice a week was enacted (albeit rarely enforced).

  5. #25
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by AwkwardDuck View Post
    I agree with your proposal Luna for the Welsh Longbowmen being recruitable from the start of the game, since we know they took a notable toll on the Norman invaders, were incorporated into their armies (eventually), and in 1257 the law for every man to perform 2 hours of archery practice a week was enacted (albeit rarely enforced).
    This should depend on 5 considerations:
    (1) English and Scottish rosters - how many own (not-shared-with-other-factions) units do they have, especially archery ones: should there be so many kinds?
    (2) The maximum number of units in game is 500, you have to spread it accross 30 factions and 4 centuries: should there be another archery unit recruitable in the Islands?
    (3) The Welsh Longbowmen unit is at home in 1 province, migrating warriors perhaps in a few more. This is not unique - same with the Gallowglass (here maybe 3 provinces) or Kerns (1). But how many units of this type you can have, taking into account that limit of 500? In the other parts of the map, a unit is at home in a number of provinces, eg Berber units - 6 or even 8 provinces, plus migration to the other shores of the Mediterranean
    (4) The work of @kostic on the models and his creativity - is / will the appearance be adjusted to 12/13/14 centuries?
    (5) Mod's manpower - we've got many ideas but very little time.

  6. #26
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    ------ {LEVEL_0} None
    ------ {LEVEL_1}
    ------ {LEVEL_2} Padded
    ------ {LEVEL_3} Leather Lamellar
    1132 {LEVEL_4} Light Brigandine -------------------- Leatherleather_tanner 3 laps
    ------ {LEVEL_5} Light Scale
    ------ {LEVEL_6} Partial Light Mail
    ------ {LEVEL_7} Light Mail
    1150 {LEVEL_8} Brigandine -------------------------- blacksmith armourer 6 laps
    1170 {LEVEL_9} Scale
    1190 {LEVEL_10} Partial Heavy Mail
    1210 {LEVEL_11} Heavy Mail
    1230 {LEVEL_12} Buff Coat
    1250 {LEVEL_13} Heavy Brigandine ------------------ heavy_armourer 8 laps
    ------ {LEVEL_14} Heavy Scale
    1280 {LEVEL_15} Coat of Plates
    1300 {LEVEL_16} Partial Plate
    1350 {LEVEL_17} Breastplate
    1400 {LEVEL_18} Late Brigandine ------------------- plate_armourer 10 laps
    ------ {LEVEL_19} Late Lamellar
    ------ {LEVEL_20} Heavy Splint
    1430 {LEVEL_21} Full Plate
    ------ {LEVEL_22} Renaissance Half Plate
    1450 {LEVEL_23} Improved Metallurgy --------------- gothic_armourer 12 laps
    1480 {LEVEL_24} Gothic Plate
    ------ {LEVEL_25} Renaissance 3-Quarter Plate
    ------ {LEVEL_26} Advanced Metallurgy
    ------ {LEVEL_27} Increased Armor Thickness
    I use the list above to get my bearings on the arrival of units in the game (level indicated in the EDU on the line armour_ug_levels)
    but how are related to this list of events below ? The titles of the events are indeed not the same...


    ;---------------------------- HISTORICAL DATES (for reference while coding) ------------------

    ; Events essential for historical evolution of the Catholic armies (state for 098):
    ; early_era
    ; 16: lateran_council2 : crossbow forbidden by papacy
    ; 40: HANSEATIC_LEAGUE
    ; 90: lateran_council3
    ; 110: battle_hattin
    ; 140: HEAVY_MAIL
    ; 170: lateran_council4
    ; 208: high_era
    ; 200: gunpowder_discovered
    ; 210: MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS
    ; 280: CONCENTRIC_CASTLES
    ; 300: ENGLISH_ARCHERS
    ; 310: TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR
    ; 325: CANNONS
    ; 340: new_era_begins
    ; 380: PAVISE_SHIELDS
    ; 440: HALF_PLATE_ARMOR
    ; 460: HANDGUN
    ; 510: FULL_PLATE_ARMOR
    ; 516: late_era
    ; 540: IMPROVED_METALLURGY
    ; 600: MATCHLOCK
    ; 630: GOTHIC_ARMOR
    ; 800: pike_and_shot
    ; 840: ADV_MATCHLOCK
    Ok that's good: I just did the math to get the dates based on the number of laps. Some events are reversed. It's desired ?
    ;---------------------------- HISTORICAL DATES (for reference while coding) ------------------


    ; Events essential for historical evolution of the Catholic armies (state for 098):
    ; early_era
    ; 16: lateran_council2 : crossbow forbidden by papacy--------1140
    ; 40: HANSEATIC_LEAGUE---------------------------------------1152
    ; 90: lateran_council3--------------------------------------------1177
    ; 110: battle_hattin----------------------------------------------1187
    ; 140: HEAVY_MAIL-------------------------------------------------1202
    ; 170: lateran_council4---------------------------------------------1217
    ; 208: high_era-----------------------------------------------------1236
    ; 200: gunpowder_discovered-------------------------------------1232
    ; 210: MOUNTED_CROSSBOWS-----------------------------------1237
    ; 280: CONCENTRIC_CASTLES------------------------------------1272
    ; 300: ENGLISH_ARCHERS----------------------------------------1282
    ; 310: TRANSITIONAL_ARMOR------------------------------------1287
    ; 325: CANNONS---------------------------------------------------1294/95
    ; 340: new_era_begins----------------------------------------------1302
    ; 380: PAVISE_SHIELDS---------------------------------------------1322
    ; 440: HALF_PLATE_ARMOR-----------------------------------------1352
    ; 460: HANDGUN-----------------------------------------------------1362
    ; 510: FULL_PLATE_ARMOR------------------------------------------1387
    ; 516: late_era--------------------------------------------------------1390
    ; 540: IMPROVED_METALLURGY---------------------------------------1402
    ; 600: MATCHLOCK-----------------------------------------------------1432
    ; 630: GOTHIC_ARMOR------------------------------------------------1447
    ; 800: pike_and_shot----------------------------------------------------1532
    ; 840: ADV_MATCHLOCK------------------------------------------------1552
    Regarding the welsh longbowmen, they should indeed be recruitable from the start of the game as mercenaries in the region concerned.
    Their current appearance is appropriate for the time :

    Last edited by kostic; January 18, 2023 at 09:13 AM.

  7. #27
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    ad events: the first list (with armours) is perhaps a code and descriptions for coding armours indeed, the second is for events - and there are used in the code for recruitment and budildings.

    no problem with the order of events, they're coded elsewhere, this list is just for recalling when something happens

    ad. Welsh Longbowmen as mercs - they're scripted from 1251 onwards, perhaps should be made available earlier?
    Code:
    ;================================================================================================================= WALES
    pool Wales
        regions Caernarvon_Province Bristol_Province
    ;--------------------------- MISSILES:    
        unit Hunters                    exp 2 cost 1008 replenish 0.06 - 0.13 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1250
        unit Irish Kerns                exp 1 cost 1219 replenish 0.02 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0    
        unit Welsh Longbowmen            exp 4 cost 1264 replenish 0.08 - 0.25 max 3 initial 1 start_year 1251
        unit Free Company Longbowmen    exp 4 cost 2290 replenish 0.08 - 0.2 max 3 initial 1 start_year 1300
        unit Mercenary Crossbowmen        exp 0 cost 1880 replenish 0.02 - 0.06 max 1 initial 1 events { mounted_crossbows } end_year 1299
        unit Mercenary Crossbowmen        exp 1 cost 1880 replenish 0.03 - 0.09 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300 end_year 1399
        unit Mercenary Crossbowmen        exp 3 cost 1880 replenish 0.05 - 0.13 max 3 initial 2 start_year 1400
        unit Mercenary Arquebusiers        exp 3 cost 1840 replenish 0.02 - 0.06 max 1 initial 0 start_year 1450 events { gunpowder_discovered }
        unit Mercenary Knights            exp 3 cost 1256 replenish 0.04 - 0.18 max 2 initial 1 start_year 1300 religions { catholic orthodox }
        unit Welsh Spearmen                exp 2 cost 1752 replenish 0.06 - 0.18 max 2 initial 1
        unit Mercenary Spearmen            exp 3 cost 1936 replenish 0.04 - 0.13 max 1 initial 1 start_year 1200
        unit English Huscarls            exp 4 cost 2026 replenish 0.06 - 0.18 max 2 initial 1 end_year 1180
        
    ;--------------------------- CRUSADERS: marginal Catholic provinces    
        unit merc cog,                    exp 1 cost 555 replenish 0.36 - 1.0 max 1 initial 1 religions { catholic } crusading
        unit Crusader Sergeants            exp 2 cost 663 replenish 0.08 - 0.24 max 4 initial 0 religions { catholic } crusading
        unit Flagellants                exp 1 cost 286 replenish 0.08 - 0.25 max 3 initial 1 start_year 1260 religions { catholic } crusading
    Last edited by Jurand of Cracow; January 18, 2023 at 09:46 AM.

  8. #28

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    This should depend on 5 considerations:
    (1) English and Scottish rosters - how many own (not-shared-with-other-factions) units do they have, especially archery ones: should there be so many kinds?
    (2) The maximum number of units in game is 500, you have to spread it accross 30 factions and 4 centuries: should there be another archery unit recruitable in the Islands?
    (3) The Welsh Longbowmen unit is at home in 1 province, migrating warriors perhaps in a few more. This is not unique - same with the Gallowglass (here maybe 3 provinces) or Kerns (1). But how many units of this type you can have, taking into account that limit of 500? In the other parts of the map, a unit is at home in a number of provinces, eg Berber units - 6 or even 8 provinces, plus migration to the other shores of the Mediterranean
    (4) The work of @kostic on the models and his creativity - is / will the appearance be adjusted to 12/13/14 centuries?
    (5) Mod's manpower - we've got many ideas but very little time.
    Ok Jurand I think I can answer all the points and help you as much as possible and who knows if you will have time to reflect them in the next version...


    (1). Checking the archer units for the English have the following units:
    -Hunters (AOR and mercenaries)
    -Archers (recruitable in castles)
    -Archer militia (irc recruitable in cities)
    -Levy archers ( recruitable in castles and cities)
    -Yeoman archers (high era)
    -Retinue longbowmen (high and late era, old vanilla model)
    -Welsh longbowmen (mercenaries)
    -Longbowmen (irc high era, archery)
    -Mercenery Longbowmen (high and late mercenaries)
    -They also have the typical units of European crossbowmen


    -Scots have Scottish longbowmen(historical???) and Scottish Guard, also archers,levy archers and archer militia

    (2)I think you could merge/remove redundant units and leave the more specific/cultural ones to make the faction and its original region more unique. For example, eliminate the "Longbowmen" unit and make AOR and mercenary at the beginning of the game the "Welsh Longbowmen" unit, the creators of the longbow.
    Eliminate for the English the levy archers and leave the archer militia, better in the game and representing a militia of archers where the English were pioneers in training their citizens (early era), later replaced by the Yeoman Archers (militiamen with Longbows) Also leave the Hunters as is to represent the most basic archers as the population with their own bows for hunting.
    Therefore you would have 2 more free slots for the English and one more for the whole game by eliminating the "longbowmen", a redundant unit.

    For Scots I would review the use of the longbow by them (remove Scottish longbowmen) and leave only levy archers, archers and Scot Guard, in addition to crossbowmen. (remove archer militia for them)

    (3).As for the recruitment regions for units residing in the British Isles, if that's okay with you, it could be like this:

    -Welsh spearmen/longbowmen---Recruitable early game as AOR and with very few recruitable units available in the Welsh and surrounding regions (Wales,Mercia,Northumbria, Wessex and Essex). As mercenaries they could be recruited by creating an event of the English Ultimate Conquest of Wales (1277-1283), so they would appear as mercenaries throughout England with more units available.The ideal would be to create that by conquering Wales you could have access to the unlocking of these units but I think that this is not possible in sship.

    "This weapon is first recorded in the British Isles when it was used by the Welsh in 633. Offrid, the son of Edwin of Deira, King of Northumbria, was killed by an arrow shot from a Welsh longbow during a battle among the Welsh and Mercians, more than five centuries before any record of its military use in England. Despite this, the weapon is commonly known as the "English longbow" rather than the "Welsh longbow"."

    https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arco_largo_ingl%C3%A9s


    -Irish Kerns---Irish AOR recruitable in Ireland, Wales, Wessex, Northumbria and Scottish highlands and lowlands, representing the Irish migrations on the coast closest to their island as well as their complicity with the Scots (usually they had a common enemy with the english). Same for mercenaries.


    -Gallogaich--- AOR in Ireland and Scottish lands (need new unit model from kostic), same for mercenaries.


    -Galwegian Javelinmen--- AOR recruitable in Ireland, Northumbria and Scottish lands, same for mercenaries.


    In general, the Scottish unit models need a revision by Kostic to make them more historical, currently they almost all have the famous Kilt skirt and look like Barbarians. (very Braveheart film style)


    (4).I think it would be easy for Kostic to make his armor upgrades, being similar to many of his units like adding more armor and helmets but always maintaining his cultural style and type of skins/hair, for example I really like to see the current Welsh units because of their hair and redheaded beards as well as their more "celtic" clothing.


    (5).Totally agree, at this point you need more help from modders for everything.
    Last edited by j.a.luna; January 18, 2023 at 10:19 AM.
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  9. #29
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    I have reviewed the Welsh Longbowmen unit a bit. Indeed, as they have 0 armor, I removed their helmets and changed the length of the clothes (more appropriate for the time)



  10. #30

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by kostic View Post
    I have reviewed the Welsh Longbowmen unit a bit. Indeed, as they have 0 armor, I removed their helmets and changed the length of the clothes (more appropriate for the time)


    Great kostic! And the another old model is for upgrade 1? ( More armour with helmets)
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  11. #31
    kostic's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    For now, there are no armor upgrades planned for this unit.

  12. #32

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    @Jurand/ kostic finally the welsh longbowmen will be able to be recruited early game in the next version?
    I think that until the incorporation of the Welsh longbows into the English army (13th-14th centuries) with Edward I and later this unique unit could be recruited as AOR/mercenaries (like their companions the Welsh spearmen), later they would appear to England their longbows ( yeomen, retinue longbowmen, mercenaries longbowmen...)

    https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...d/The-Longbow/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_bow

    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arco_largo_ingl%C3%A9s
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  13. #33

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @Jurand/ kostic finally the welsh longbowmen will be able to be recruited early game in the next version?
    I think that until the incorporation of the Welsh longbows into the English army (13th-14th centuries) with Edward I and later this unique unit could be recruited as AOR/mercenaries (like their companions the Welsh spearmen), later they would appear to England their longbows ( yeomen, retinue longbowmen, mercenaries longbowmen...)

    https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryU...d/The-Longbow/

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welsh_bow

    https://es.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arco_largo_ingl%C3%A9s
    Jurand ,I'm sorry to be heavy on this but I haven't gotten an answer...
    Finally have you made any decision regarding this? it is cool to see a mix of scots, welsh, irish and english in the anglo-norman army, as it historically was.
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  14. #34
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    Jurand ,I'm sorry to be heavy on this but I haven't gotten an answer...
    Finally have you made any decision regarding this? it is cool to see a mix of scots, welsh, irish and english in the anglo-norman army, as it historically was.
    No. I haven't do modding during the last month. The work on the NE bowmen may come at some point, but I have more to be done first, eg. changing the EDB to accomodate the @kostic changes etc.

  15. #35

    Default Re: English (Welsh) Longbowmen

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    No. I haven't do modding during the last month. The work on the NE bowmen may come at some point, but I have more to be done first, eg. changing the EDB to accomodate the @kostic changes etc.
    Ook Jurand i dont understand so much about modding, bit only I told you to change the date on which they were available (1250) for the one at the beginning of the game (1132) because it is historical, I think their regions where they would be hired as mercenaries could be kept as they were previously... so as not to generate a lot of work.
    Of course all this propose if you are agree friend.
    Last edited by j.a.luna; February 10, 2023 at 02:47 PM.
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  16. #36

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    @Jurand now that you are reviewing the recruitment of both castles and cities, in terms of the availability and recruitment of English archers, are you going to modify something for the next version? For example, not having so many types of archer units and reviewing the availability of the famous welsh longbowmen (previous posts justified their use at the beginning of the game as mercenaries).
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  17. #37
    Jurand of Cracow's Avatar History and gameplay!
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    Default Re: ENGLAND

    Quote Originally Posted by j.a.luna View Post
    @Jurand now that you are reviewing the recruitment of both castles and cities, in terms of the availability and recruitment of English archers, are you going to modify something for the next version? For example, not having so many types of archer units and reviewing the availability of the famous welsh longbowmen (previous posts justified their use at the beginning of the game as mercenaries).
    I don't know. I've got no plans for it for the moment, but who knows. England is very popular faction among the players recently.

  18. #38

    Default Re: ENGLAND

    Quote Originally Posted by Jurand of Cracow View Post
    I don't know. I've got no plans for it for the moment, but who knows. England is very popular faction among the players recently.
    yes, England faction is usually a very popular faction in M2TW due to their ease of handling and position on the map and above all due to their famous longbowmen, that's why I was telling you that now that you are looking at unit recruitment and events such as crossbowmen evolution, you could take a look at their unit roster, specifically their archers and mercenaries ,when you have time, for the next version.
    Last edited by j.a.luna; August 02, 2023 at 03:58 PM.
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  19. #39
    Khevsur's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: ENGLAND

    I think - English units (generally British units) need more artistic details. Sometimes Medieval 2's vanilla units spoil the atmosphere.I think they were not monotonous visually and were much more interesting
    Georgian Medieval Shields By Khevsur

    https://www.mediafire.com/file/017uq....2023.rar/file

  20. #40
    Civis
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    Default Re: ENGLAND

    Does it really take hundreds of turns just to unlock longbows?
    What turn number roughly would you unlock them?

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