[Army Compositions] Feedback requested

[Rad]

HA's are all about micro.

A lot of micro. A lot.

[bordinis]

I wish they kinda did some differentiation by unit class more. Like spearmen having more "unit mass" then swordsmen and then by unit mass you can go to tiers to light medium and heavy. This way swordsmen could do better on mellee but have less mass against those cavalry charges hence you would put spears in a line and use swords behind them as reserve.

[randy_cat]

That's what I've been doing, I had my regulars do most of the hard work (as they should). I just feel that elites are too limited by their smaller size, they should be good at more than just specific tasks like holding choke points, attacking walls etc. What I'm trying to say is that that the best way to demonstrate their better stats is to have them be the same size as other units - 160 on huge unit size, instead of 120.

I think they are ok, for example peltastai logades comes at 120 but they beat hoplitai that come at 160. In my opinion they don't need more numbers, they need more attack strength to better differentiate them from the medium quality troops. Like, for example, give all elite units some more attack and further increase their cost. This way they might be worth it, as they have the killing power to justify their higher cost.

[Rad]

Different solution, same problem. My suggestion gives them greater presence on a tactical level. Strategically, they'd remain the same if replenishment rates were slowed.
Anyhow, what I love about this mod and mods in general is that they're never finished. There's always something to try, to see if it works better. If I remember correctly, some cavalry units are getting a unit size change.

[randy_cat]

I wish they kinda did some differentiation by unit class more. Like spearmen having more "unit mass" then swordsmen and then by unit mass you can go to tiers to light medium and heavy. This way swordsmen could do better on mellee but have less mass against those cavalry charges hence you would put spears in a line and use swords behind them as reserve.

I think infantry units are too much a jack of all trades, even cheap troops can put up a long fight against stronger ones. Units should be differentiated in " classes ".... for example, the infantry killers, which are all the swordsmen, axemen, clubmen, romphaia troops, machairophoroi etc... the " cavalry killers ", which should be all the armoured spearmen and pikemen. Some of them can be good also against other infantry why not, but they rather kill slowly and have a more solid defense than assault troops. The hoplitai and the likes, fighting with the massive hoplon shield and spear, should be the kind of the jack of all trades, they have both defense and attack power because they can close ranks and push other infantry back, essentially forcing them to rout. But since this feature is not avaiable in M2TW, just give hoplites both good defense and attack, with the only problem that they can be easily mobbed up by large numbers, hoplitai are not supposed to be a lot, but quality troops. Then, the " super elites ", like hyperaspistai, hypaspistai, romphaia champions, barbarian noble footmen, should be overwhelming but in very limited number. They are supposed to quickly defeat lesser opponents but very vulnerable to being mobbed up since they are so few in number.

[Sint]

I think infantry units are too much a jack of all trades, even cheap troops can put up a long fight against stronger ones. Units should be differentiated in " classes ".... for example, the infantry killers, which are all the swordsmen, axemen, clubmen, romphaia troops, machairophoroi etc... the " cavalry killers ", which should be all the armoured spearmen and pikemen. Some of them can be good also against other infantry why not, but they rather kill slowly and have a more solid defense than assault troops. The hoplitai and the likes, fighting with the massive hoplon shield and spear, should be the kind of the jack of all trades, they have both defense and attack power because they can close ranks and push other infantry back, essentially forcing them to rout. But since this feature is not avaiable in M2TW, just give hoplites both good defense and attack, with the only problem that they can be easily mobbed up by large numbers, hoplitai are not supposed to be a lot, but quality troops. Then, the " super elites ", like hyperaspistai, hypaspistai, romphaia champions, barbarian noble footmen, should be overwhelming but in very limited number. They are supposed to quickly defeat lesser opponents but very vulnerable to being mobbed up since they are so few in number.

That's not very realistic and exactly the kind of rock paper scissor balance that the newer TW games have and I have never been a fan of it.

[randy_cat]

That's not very realistic and exactly the kind of rock paper scissor balance that the newer TW games have and I have never been a fan of it.

Why not realistic? Why hypaspistai should not beat lesser infantry quickly? They cost a lot and they are avaiable like once every 30 turns. Hystorically, they were the best infantry, picked hoplites, and they get Better weapons, armor and training. It doesn't make sense that a squad of hypaspistai takes so long to beat one of, let's say thureophoroi. Or that barbarian most savage warriors don't rout quickly levy militias of more civilised cultures, like Levy hoplites. They are supposed to have a ferocious, rout inducing charge that frightens lesser troops, but also to die quickly to elite, well prepared ones ( like, gaisatoi naked warriors should quickly rout levies, but also die fast to prepared, disciplined, well trained troops like legions and regular phalangitai ).

Also, It doesn't make sense that spearmen tend to beat swordsmen in general ( not Always but still ) as It happens in the game but that' s probably due to the overhand spear animation which hits faster than swordsmen do, or something like that. Because i tested the units a lot and i found that romphaia Champions barely do anything vs heavy spearmen. Aren't they supposed to be a most dangerous kind of troop? They also cost quote a lot.

[QuintusSertorius]

Also, It doesn't make sense that spearmen tend to beat swordsmen in general

Yes, it does. In close formation fighting, you can pack more spearmen into a given space than you can swordsmen - and have a second and possibly third rank who can fight over the shoulders of those in front as well.

It's the same reason Romans with short, stabbing attacks were able to overwhelm barbarians in loose formation with longer, slashing swords.

[randy_cat]

Yes, it does. In close formation fighting, you can pack more spearmen into a given space than you can swordsmen - and have a second and possibly third rank who can fight over the shoulders of those in front as well.

True, for hoplitai and troops trained in a similar way, thanks to the very large shield and long spear. But the other spearmen with cheaper equipment and less training, for what reason they beat swords?

[QuintusSertorius]

True, for hoplitai and troops trained in a similar way, thanks to the very large shield and long spear. But the other spearmen with cheaper equipment and less training, for what reason they beat swords?

The same still applies even when it's only one rank, and reach as well. WYSIWYG with the physics of the engine, more spears can reach the guys with swords, so more hits relatively.

[bordinis]

Any reworks on Swebozez units or faction? Did they got a sword unit?'D

[randy_cat]

That's not very realistic and exactly the kind of rock paper scissor balance that the newer TW games have and I have never been a fan of it.

It's not even fun tho, if there is not some kind of rock paper scissor, maybe mitigated but still... take vanilla M2TW for example, heavy cavalry beats infantry, pikemen beat cavalry, archers do a lot of damage and units kill each other generally very quickly. I don't like it either, but in EB2 it is pointless to even bother with swords, axes, specialists etc... all you need is a line of decent infantry, whatever it is, and 2 wings of heavy cavalry to win any battle. It doesn't give room for many other strategies. Or alternatively you can mass a lot of horse archers, then charge from all directions when out of ammo. This strat also works but it is kinda boring and anyway you can do it only with certain factions and in certain areas of recruitment.