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Thread: Bactrian Phalangites

  1. #1

    Default Bactrian Phalangites

    How do I get Phalangites besides the Pantadapoi Phalangites as Bactria? I've passed the Theuros reforms. According to the recruitment viewer, I should be able to recruit them from a Satrapy in Bactria, which I have, and yet that is not available.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Go west is your only way.

  3. #3
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Go west is your only way.
    Out of curiosity, what does that mean? I've never played as Baktria, so I'm not aware of how it works, but do you have to take Seleukeia in Mesopotamia in order to recruit them or something? I'm at least aware that taking Seleukeia is important for Makedonia, as it allows you to build another royal factional core government building, the Basilike Patris. However, doing so allows you to recruit Agema Phalangitai, not just regular phalangitai!

  4. #4

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Out of curiosity, what does that mean? I've never played as Baktria, so I'm not aware of how it works, but do you have to take Seleukeia in Mesopotamia in order to recruit them or something? I'm at least aware that taking Seleukeia is important for Makedonia, as it allows you to build another royal factional core government building, the Basilike Patris. However, doing so allows you to recruit Agema Phalangitai, not just regular phalangitai!
    Phalangitai can only be recruited via factional governments in Pella, Antiocheia and Alexandria. Furthurmore, the easternmost extent of their recruitment is in Medea Rhagiana (Europos) with Settler Towns and that ends by the time the Thorakitai Reforms roll around. And Baktria has no access to Agema Basilikon as they have little to no tradition in phalanx warfare compared to the other Hellenistic factions.
    To fight and conquer in all our battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
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  5. #5
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by realm56 View Post
    Phalangitai can only be recruited via factional governments in Pella, Antiocheia and Alexandria. Furthurmore, the easternmost extent of their recruitment is in Medea Rhagiana (Europos) with Settler Towns and that ends by the time the Thorakitai Reforms roll around. And Baktria has no access to Agema Basilikon as they have little to no tradition in phalanx warfare compared to the other Hellenistic factions.
    Thanks for the clarification!
    Out of curiosity, if Baktria randomly conquered as far as Greece, they would at least be able to recruit Deuteroi Phalangitai there, right?
    It is cool how there's also another Eastern variant of phalangitai aside from the Pantodapoi version, considering the Chaldian pikemen infantry in eastern Anatolia. For that matter the Egyptian Machimoi have their own phalangitai, as do the Illyrians with the peltophoroi unit available in the Balkans.
    How far to the east are mercenary phalangitai available, again?

  6. #6

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Roma_Victrix View Post
    Thanks for the clarification!
    Out of curiosity, if Baktria randomly conquered as far as Greece, they would at least be able to recruit Deuteroi Phalangitai there, right?
    It is cool how there's also another Eastern variant of phalangitai aside from the Pantodapoi version, considering the Chaldian pikemen infantry in eastern Anatolia. For that matter the Egyptian Machimoi have their own phalangitai, as do the Illyrians with the peltophoroi unit available in the Balkans.
    How far to the east are mercenary phalangitai available, again?
    Baktria use the Hellenistic Polis and Hellenistic Colony same as the other Hellenistic factions. If they go far west, they get the same options from the same sources.

    I think the merc Phalangitai are available in Iran.

  7. #7
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by QuintusSertorius View Post
    Baktria use the Hellenistic Polis and Hellenistic Colony same as the other Hellenistic factions. If they go far west, they get the same options from the same sources.

    I think the merc Phalangitai are available in Iran.
    Cool, good to know.

    As for the Mercenary Phalangitai, do they look a bit darker skinned than standard Phalangitai, the Agema Basilikon, and Deuteroi varieties because they are mixed with West Asians and Northeast Africans or something? Similar to how the Pantodapoi and Pantodapoi Phalangitai are wholly native levies from eastern regions? I vaguely remember someone on here explaining that the Aspidiotai Hippeis are darker skinned than the Lonchophoroi Hippeis because the latter are actual Greeks from the Balkans or western Anatolia while the former are a blend of Greeks, people of partial Greek descent, and Hellenized natives recruited from various regions across West Asia and Northeast Africa.

  8. #8

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    I know EB2 has completely gone the other way compared to EB1 concerning historical "what-ifs", but "what-if" Epirus actually managed to conquer Italy and then then most of mainland western Europe? They have zero ability to set up phalangite settler colonies in any city out west?

  9. #9

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    I know EB2 has completely gone the other way compared to EB1 concerning historical "what-ifs", but "what-if" Epirus actually managed to conquer Italy and then then most of mainland western Europe? They have zero ability to set up phalangite settler colonies in any city out west?
    Kyrene and the Punic core allow recruitment of Deuteroi Phalangitai after the Thorakitai Reform. But no, there is no "what if" allowing phalangite settlers in the west generally.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Ok, so essentially, if any Hellenistic Power manages to conquer most of mainland western Europe, they have zero ability to maintain a phalanx heavy army over months of continuous campaigning. All reinforcements will have to come via ship, or an arduous trek from the Balkans. Eventually, the most reasonable and logistically feasible force would be mostly comprised of thureos bearers (light and heavy), and of course native troops? Do the Romans have the same problem? Can they eventually recruit reformed Marian cohorts anywhere in the world (given enough time to develop the infrastructure and to influence the locals to Romanize) or are such line infantry restricted to certain regions? What I get from this is that most Hellenistic Powers had better go East rather than West, as there are Macedonian colonies up to the Jaxartes (I think) that can produce regular phalangites.

  11. #11

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Ok, so essentially, if any Hellenistic Power manages to conquer most of mainland western Europe, they have zero ability to maintain a phalanx heavy army over months of continuous campaigning. All reinforcements will have to come via ship, or an arduous trek from the Balkans. Eventually, the most reasonable and logistically feasible force would be mostly comprised of thureos bearers (light and heavy), and of course native troops? Do the Romans have the same problem? Can they eventually recruit reformed Marian cohorts anywhere in the world (given enough time to develop the infrastructure and to influence the locals to Romanize) or are such line infantry restricted to certain regions? What I get from this is that most Hellenistic Powers had better go East rather than West, as there are Macedonian colonies up to the Jaxartes (I think) that can produce regular phalangites.
    The Romans have a post-Marian event government that allows you to train cohors reformata and evocati across the Mediterranean, Gaul, Anatolia, and a smattering of other places. Sicily can even build Roman colonies, which expands your base recruiting footprint pretty significantly even if Sicily is disconnected from your theatres of war by turn 500.

    As for the Hellenes/Diadochi, east is usually better than west (Southern Italy and Sicily are good expansion areas for any Greek faction), although the Epeirotes are an exception. Epeiros can recruit Roman Hastati maniples (of the Camillan or Polybian eras depending on Rome’s advancement). Also, east is better than west for Baktria, especially in the early game.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Is there a historical reason that the various Hellenistic Powers are unable to send phalangite colonists to even a few cities in the west? I mean other than the fact that no Hellenistic Power was ever able to achieve that level of success in the western Mediterranean...is there some sort of innate disgust that any pike wielder feels the moment his King tells him to settle in a city of...Gaul or maybe Spain? Say Pyrrhus did manage to take all of Italy and Southern France (somehow)...he couldn't even induce ONE city in that whole peninsula and coastline to...maybe...a 100 years after his initial conquests to train phalangites? It seems EB2 is making historical events triumph over historical systems, sure of course in the past this NEVER happened because the Hellenistic Powers were absorbed in the self-destructing "stasis" and infighting to ever achieve collective success in that theater of war (plus getting stomped by the Romans in the west and the Parthians in the east doesn't help). However, if they did, and this game provides the freedom of choice to do so, was there a physical or cultural obstacle that would prevent any Hellenistic government to send new settlers to these newly conquered cities to live and garrison, and eventually, I don't know, have sons and descendants that know how to fight with the sarissa?

    P.S. I understand unit recruitment restriction on men like Steppe Cavalry, or noble units (of various types), or mountain infantry, or heavy warbow (self or composite) wielding soldiers, where the four I mentioned have various terrain and sociopolitical reasons that simply being transplanted from their home regions to new areas is not historically plausible. Yet phalangites are not as hard to train as skilled archers (where you need generations to raise a new batch up to standard in very specific military cultures), or require the physical presence of vast amounts of grass for quality mounts, or need to live and breathe mountain air and feel mountain terrain to fight like mountain infantry, nor are they a unit that belong to their political elite and so can't be prised from their vast home estates. These are the sort of men that Philip and his son Alexander most certainly did send to the far reaches of the Earth to garrison and eventually form communities which have local military traditions blended with the drill and order of the sarissa phalanx. What happened after 275 BC? Macedonia experienced a permanent and crippling manpower shortage in which they would never ever recover from, not even with a strong Antigonid government that could potentially reverse the fortunes of the whole country? Did they have such a stubborn and exclusionist culture that anyone wielding the sarissa would never settle in any city past the Balkans and even if they were sent to just temporarily garrison such a location, could not train Germans, Gauls, Spaniards, or Britons in the ways of the phalanx? Were said ethnicities completely averse to converting to a fusion of a Hellenistic and their own native cultures? Did they have an allergy to holding any piece of wood past 9 feet? Questions abound...
    Last edited by Pooploop; January 24, 2023 at 07:32 AM.

  13. #13

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Ok, so essentially, if any Hellenistic Power manages to conquer most of mainland western Europe, they have zero ability to maintain a phalanx heavy army over months of continuous campaigning. All reinforcements will have to come via ship, or an arduous trek from the Balkans. Eventually, the most reasonable and logistically feasible force would be mostly comprised of thureos bearers (light and heavy), and of course native troops? Do the Romans have the same problem? Can they eventually recruit reformed Marian cohorts anywhere in the world (given enough time to develop the infrastructure and to influence the locals to Romanize) or are such line infantry restricted to certain regions? What I get from this is that most Hellenistic Powers had better go East rather than West, as there are Macedonian colonies up to the Jaxartes (I think) that can produce regular phalangites.
    Yep, they can't recruit phalanxes all across the world, which is by design. The core heartland that settler phalanxes come from is Anatolia, the further you stray from there the less they appear. They don't go as far east as the Jaxartes, if I remember rightly they stop in eastern Iran.

    As for the Romans, they can recruit a small number of Marian legionaries from their colonies, which with that later era can be put anywhere. The bulk will still come from Italy, though. Theirs was a different colonising mindset to the Hellenistic powers.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Is there a historical reason that the various Hellenistic Powers are unable to send phalangite colonists to even a few cities in the west? I mean other than the fact that no Hellenistic Power was ever able to achieve that level of success in the western Mediterranean...is there some sort of innate disgust that any pike wielder feels the moment his King tells him to settle in a city of...Gaul or maybe Spain? Say Pyrrhus did manage to take all of Italy and Southern France (somehow)...he couldn't even induce ONE city in that whole peninsula and coastline to...maybe...a 100 years after his initial conquests to train phalangites? It seems EB2 is making historical events triumph over historical systems, sure of course in the past this NEVER happened because the Hellenistic Powers were absorbed in the self-destructing "stasis" and infighting to ever achieve collective success in that theater of war (plus getting stomped by the Romans in the west and the Parthians in the east doesn't help). However, if they did, and this game provides the freedom of choice to do so, was there a physical or cultural obstacle that would prevent any Hellenistic government to send new settlers to these newly conquered cities to live and garrison, and eventually, I don't know, have sons and descendants that know how to fight with the sarissa?

    P.S. I understand unit recruitment restriction on men like Steppe Cavalry, or noble units (of various types), or mountain infantry, or heavy warbow (self or composite) wielding soldiers, where the four I mentioned have various terrain and sociopolitical reasons that simply being transplanted from their home regions to new areas is not historically plausible. Yet phalangites are not as hard to train as skilled archers (where you need generations to raise a new batch up to standard in very specific military cultures), or require the physical presence of vast amounts of grass for quality mounts, or need to live and breathe mountain air and feel mountain terrain to fight like mountain infantry, nor are they a unit that belong to their political elite and so can't be prised from their vast home estates. These are the sort of men that Philip and his son Alexander most certainly did send to the far reaches of the Earth to garrison and eventually form communities which have local military traditions blended with the drill and order of the sarissa phalanx. What happened after 275 BC? Macedonia experienced a permanent and crippling manpower shortage in which they would never ever recover from, not even with a strong Antigonid government that could potentially reverse the fortunes of the whole country? Did they have such a stubborn and exclusionist culture that anyone wielding the sarissa would never settle in any city past the Balkans and even if they were sent to just temporarily garrison such a location, could not train Germans, Gauls, Spaniards, or Britons in the ways of the phalanx? Were said ethnicities completely averse to converting to a fusion of a Hellenistic and their own native cultures? Did they have an allergy to holding any piece of wood past 9 feet? Questions abound...
    Phalangitai are Makedonians, not just any Hellenised peoples trained to use the pike. That's why the unit is very deliberately restricted in it's availability. They were even more picky than Hellenes in where they were willing to be settled.
    Last edited by Maximinus Thrax; January 24, 2023 at 08:50 AM. Reason: posts merged

  14. #14

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Totally get that Quintus. I'm not arguing that all conquered cities regardless of region should, once the proper time, buildings, and culture level is achieved, be able to recruit regular phalangites. However, let's say Pyrrhus (controlled by the human player) conquers all of Italy...and manages (in his megalomania) to snatch southern Gaul. The Kingdom of Epirus then holds these lands for the next century, while also controlling the Macedonian heartland. In all this time....the option to settle phalangites in not even ONE city (of the western territories) would ever appear? IF such an option would be implemented, I would like to be able to recruit phalangites in formerly foreign cities with extremely strict requirements met, such as a high level of Hellenization, and maybe a special building(s) that only appears to be selected once every 40 turns and only after having a surplus of 10 cities. Something like a slightly less ranked Basilike Patris, OR the Basilike Patris itself...what if I were to set up one in Syracuse or Marseilles? BUT, to have NO option to ever settle phalangites outside the territories Alexander originally won? Pretty disappointing...

  15. #15

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Totally get that Quintus. I'm not arguing that all conquered cities regardless of region should, once the proper time, buildings, and culture level is achieved, be able to recruit regular phalangites. However, let's say Pyrrhus (controlled by the human player) conquers all of Italy...and manages (in his megalomania) to snatch southern Gaul. The Kingdom of Epirus then holds these lands for the next century, while also controlling the Macedonian heartland. In all this time....the option to settle phalangites in not even ONE city (of the western territories) would ever appear? IF such an option would be implemented, I would like to be able to recruit phalangites in formerly foreign cities with extremely strict requirements met, such as a high level of Hellenization, and maybe a special building(s) that only appears to be selected once every 40 turns and only after having a surplus of 10 cities. Something like a slightly less ranked Basilike Patris, OR the Basilike Patris itself...what if I were to set up one in Syracuse or Marseilles? BUT, to have NO option to ever settle phalangites outside the territories Alexander originally won? Pretty disappointing...
    Are you familiar with scripting at all? You could implement that yourself if you have the time to do it. You could just create an event and timer for those regions and then have it trigger after a certain amount of time or date so phalangites could be recruited in those regions.

  16. #16
    Roma_Victrix's Avatar Call me Ishmael
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    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by romulus_aeneas View Post
    Are you familiar with scripting at all? You could implement that yourself if you have the time to do it. You could just create an event and timer for those regions and then have it trigger after a certain amount of time or date so phalangites could be recruited in those regions.
    I would simply use the export_descr_buildings file for that purpose and set the Thorakitai Reforms as the date for allowing such recruitment. In fact, I've already done that in my own version of the mod for Hellenistic factions who take Syracusae in Sicily, Massalia in Gaul, or Emporion in Iberia. I've also pretty much done what Pooploop is suggesting for Italy. It is time consuming work, but fun to tinker around with recruitment and "what if" scenarios like that.

    Quote Originally Posted by romulus_aeneas View Post
    The Romans have a post-Marian event government that allows you to train cohors reformata and evocati across the Mediterranean, Gaul, Anatolia, and a smattering of other places. Sicily can even build Roman colonies, which expands your base recruiting footprint pretty significantly even if Sicily is disconnected from your theatres of war by turn 500.

    As for the Hellenes/Diadochi, east is usually better than west (Southern Italy and Sicily are good expansion areas for any Greek faction), although the Epeirotes are an exception. Epeiros can recruit Roman Hastati maniples (of the Camillan or Polybian eras depending on Rome’s advancement). Also, east is better than west for Baktria, especially in the early game.
    Koinon Hellenon also has decent recruitment options in the West with Supervised Native and Hellenic administration buildings, and even the Allied League factional government building as far west as Massalia. However, they don't have phalangitai unless you mod the game to allow them to have them, only the Deuteroi phalangitai in Greece and western Anatolia. Also, with foreign military garrisons and allied democracies/oligarchies any faction can recruit Camillan and then Polybian Roman units in Italy (minus Triarii).

  17. #17

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Totally get that Quintus. I'm not arguing that all conquered cities regardless of region should, once the proper time, buildings, and culture level is achieved, be able to recruit regular phalangites. However, let's say Pyrrhus (controlled by the human player) conquers all of Italy...and manages (in his megalomania) to snatch southern Gaul. The Kingdom of Epirus then holds these lands for the next century, while also controlling the Macedonian heartland. In all this time....the option to settle phalangites in not even ONE city (of the western territories) would ever appear? IF such an option would be implemented, I would like to be able to recruit phalangites in formerly foreign cities with extremely strict requirements met, such as a high level of Hellenization, and maybe a special building(s) that only appears to be selected once every 40 turns and only after having a surplus of 10 cities. Something like a slightly less ranked Basilike Patris, OR the Basilike Patris itself...what if I were to set up one in Syracuse or Marseilles? BUT, to have NO option to ever settle phalangites outside the territories Alexander originally won? Pretty disappointing...
    You say there's nothing special about phalanx-fighting, yet clearly Makedonians had a particular edge that was highly prized by the Successors. The historians were explicit about limiting their availability in terms of places Makedonians could be gathered to form a critical mass.

    You can still get all the phalanx-supporting units you want in those places, but the phalanx core will always be from those places that Makedonians liked to be settled.

    As always, you're free to amend your own installation in any way you please, but in this the team isn't minded to change anything.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Quote Originally Posted by Pooploop View Post
    Totally get that Quintus. I'm not arguing that all conquered cities regardless of region should, once the proper time, buildings, and culture level is achieved, be able to recruit regular phalangites. However, let's say Pyrrhus (controlled by the human player) conquers all of Italy...and manages (in his megalomania) to snatch southern Gaul. The Kingdom of Epirus then holds these lands for the next century, while also controlling the Macedonian heartland. In all this time....the option to settle phalangites in not even ONE city (of the western territories) would ever appear? IF such an option would be implemented, I would like to be able to recruit phalangites in formerly foreign cities with extremely strict requirements met, such as a high level of Hellenization, and maybe a special building(s) that only appears to be selected once every 40 turns and only after having a surplus of 10 cities. Something like a slightly less ranked Basilike Patris, OR the Basilike Patris itself...what if I were to set up one in Syracuse or Marseilles? BUT, to have NO option to ever settle phalangites outside the territories Alexander originally won? Pretty disappointing...
    Situations like these are why I got into submodding EBII. So Pooploop, start learning how to mod M2TW and you can create some interesting gameplay scenarios for yourself to enjoy. There's no historicity requirement when it comes to personal submods.

    Anyways, like QS said, only regions with historical Macedonian colonies can recruit phalangites from higher hellenistic colonies. They're represented by the "hellen2" and "hellen1" hidden resources, with "hellen1" present in the heavily Macedonianized regions of Macedonia itself, Syria, and Alexandreia (and Epeiros for some reason), and "hellen2" representing the string of Macedonian colonization into Anatolia, Egypt, and Iran following Alexander's conquests. There's also the "deuteroi" hidden resources in Macedonia, Thessalia, and Epeiros, which represent large concentrations of citizens trained in the Macedonian manner, even if they aren't ethnically Macedonian. At least that's my interpretation of the historians' reasoning based off of game code.

    Anyways, if you want special recruitment for phalangitai in the west, do NOT modify the hidden resources inside of regions.txt! That will completely mess up building capabilities and recruitment. Instead, just modify export_descr_buildings.txt with a few extra lines in helcol_two, helcol_three, and helcol_ref to allow phalangitai recruitment in western greek regions if hellenistic polities ever exceeds 50%, like this

    Code:
    ;;; Western Sicily
    recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pontos, f_pergamon, cul_3, } and hidden_resource hr_island and hidden_resource hr_a and hidden_resource greek1 and region_religion rel_h 49 
    ;;; Southern Italy
    recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pontos, f_pergamon, cul_3, } and hidden_resource italy and region_religion rel_h 49 and hidden_resource greek1 or hidden_resource greek2
    ;;; Massalia
    recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pontos, f_pergamon, cul_3, } and hidden_resource gallic and hidden_resource greek2 and region_religion rel_h 49 
    ;;; Emporion
    recruit_pool "hellenistic infantry phalangitai"  1  0.04  1  0  requires factions { f_makedonia, f_epeiros, f_pontos, f_pergamon, cul_3, } and hidden_resource iberia and hidden_resource greek2 and region_religion rel_h 49
    There's probably a typo in there, so make a backup before applying these changes in a test build. If the game crashes, read the error logs to see what the syntax error is.

  19. #19

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Even then, I'd say Deuteroi would be more appropriate than the properly Makedonian Phalangitai.

  20. #20

    Default Re: Bactrian Phalangites

    Shoebopp, that's brilliant! However, I might like to do what Quintus said and make sure those western greek regions mainly recruit deuteroi once initial percentages of converted culture are met. I would want them only to be able to recruit phalangitai at a Hellenistic culture far higher than 50% (what's the realistic high range percentage of Hellenistic culture in formerly foreign cities - 75%?).

    And Quintus, I understand why the team won't budge. But I'm trying to think in terms of historical plausibility rather than strict historical fact. What if a Hellenistic Power managed to conquer large swathes of Western Europe? Obviously every single conquered settlement will NEVER be able to produce that much phalangitai. The best the most Hellenistic of them (in that timeline) can create after decades of assimilation would be deuteroi. However, in that large territory, where WOULD properly Makedonian phalangitai settle? Would all them really turn their noses up at a chance for that much free land and eventual estates?

    Also, as a big phalangitai supporter, I know properly Macedonian phalanxes were the cream of the crop. It is just that, historical evidence speaking, Hellenistic governments WERE able to get them to settle in far-flung areas and then reliably produce Macedonian phalanxes for generations (disclaimer - these settler Macedonians did not comprise the majority of their armies). It's why Seleucid and Ptolemaic States existed. However there's a physical and social problem in perpetuation for generations that certain units have that Macedonian phalanxmen don't. Examples of these would be: heavy composite bow or self-bow archers, horse-archers/steppe cavalry, and mountain infantry. The first requires generations of men sparing a large chunk of their time practicing with said weapons as well as the traditions to create said bows. The middle group requires what the first needs and an entirely different way of life to maintain their skills (thus the massive market for Steppe mercenaries and Steppe-born ghulams in the later Tang dynasties and Muslim states), as well as the presence of vast amounts of grazing land to maintain their horse herds. The last needs actual mountains.

    Well, I hope I can apply a modified version of Shoebopp's suggestion...and guard modes off to 2.4. Looking forward to it!
    Last edited by Pooploop; January 25, 2023 at 12:27 AM.

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