The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

Black Panther did pretty decent in China, but this is a country that dislikes black characters in movies enough they edit advertisements to make them less noticeable. But this is a misunderstanding, they don't mind a cast full of black people doing their own thing, they only dislike them being treated as equals alongside white or Asian characters. It's tempting to look at it through the lens of an outsider, with your own preconceptions of why somebody does what they do.
The motivation for anti-blackism in Asia is driven by a mental association of black people with lower status.

Western society values the exotic and vulnerable, whereas East Asian society values the high status and modern.

There are cigarettes in India called bidis, they are smoked by the lower classes as the wealthy prefer western made cigarettes, but bidis have been sold in modern packaging to westerners seeking out the novel.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

In China we see the reverse happening:


The Chinese born American (you read that correctly) KOL (Key Opinion Leader) Rachel Rommeswinkel born to a German father and American mother said when her parents showed up at a Chinese elementary school asking if they could accept their children, the agreed upon the condition they could take photos of her and her siblings and use them in photos for the school. There are jobs where a white person is paid to sit around in a meeting in an office in China, having white friends earns you social credit.

In a Nordic country having a brown skinned friend earns you social credit and they have to include any non-white person in photos of a company advertisement even if it is majority white. House of the Dragon and Lord of the Rings take place in Europeanized setting yet black people are present as characters who were white in the original setting.

The only place in Asia I know of where politics have this as a quality is Hong Kong among the opposition. It's been pushed in Hong Kong to the furthest, the British colonization has left behind the circumstance that led to the Hong Kong protest movement acting as an Asian counterpart to Antifa but the ideology is diametrically opposed:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I've given a brief description of this inverse-wokism. It's hard for me to put ideas into words but easier if I am responding directly to questions, so opening up discussion here will help me elaborate on my theory and why I believe this is the case.

[antaeus]

Lets pull this apart...

1. Following the logic: Chinese people looking down on people who are black, or pedestaling white people is just racism. It doesn't need some wokey fancy new term.
2. If to be woke is to be alert to injustice, then the reverse of woke is to be blind to injustice. I guess it is fair in this sense to call this reverse-wokeism. But again, as per 1. It is an unnecessary loaded term, when the situation is adequately described as racist.
3. I assume we're discussing Chinese people, not Chinese policy. Because Chinese government policy is not blind to injustice, it deliberately creates it. It would be more clearly labelled anti-woke. If we were going to continue down that rabbit hole.

Of course, most of what I see is someone's conjecture or opinion backed by a couple of random stories. We'd need more evidence to suggest that this is systemic in China. Is there anything that we can add to the conversation that implies that Chinese people in general behave like this? Or is this assumption itself racist?

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

Lets pull this apart...

1. Following the logic: Chinese people looking down on people who are black, or pedestaling white people is just racism. It doesn't need some wokey fancy new term.
2. If to be woke is to be alert to injustice, then the reverse of woke is to be blind to injustice. I guess it is fair in this sense to call this reverse-wokeism. But again, as per 1. It is an unnecessary loaded term, when the situation is adequately described as racist.
3. I assume we're discussing Chinese people, not Chinese policy. Because Chinese government policy is not blind to injustice, it deliberately creates it. It would be more clearly labelled anti-woke. If we were going to continue down that rabbit hole.

Of course, most of what I see is someone's conjecture or opinion backed by a couple of random stories. We'd need more evidence to suggest that this is systemic in China. Is there anything that we can add to the conversation that implies that Chinese people in general behave like this? Or is this assumption itself racist?

1. It is racism, but the underlying motivation is a counterpart to the motivations behind current leftist ideology in the west, (not that being on the left per se is wrong). This Asian motivation has not been politicized so we don't see mainstream politicians begging to be recolonized by the British, and the media doesn't obsess with mocking black people directly (but lots of commercials with white people so we may get there soon.) The motivation is wanting to associate with the elites, if it weren't westerners then it would be the elite in your own country. The mentality is a fascination with the modern and high status.

2. It is not a reverse, but an inverse. The stuff you read from HK's political activist forums or writers from Apple Daily shows indifference to justice. They only care if somethings happens to themselves and others as who are a narcissistic extension of oneself, not that the act is morally wrong itself. This inverse mentality is a very passivized version of clannish honor culture where one's status through accomplishments doesn't matter and can even make others label you as pathetic for not knowing your place, instead your position is given or bestowed by having the door held open to you from someone higher above. Once you are there you cannot lose it with your actions, but you can deprive people beneath you of status by humiliating them. This offends both western freedom of expression and Asian social harmony.

3. Yes, we are discussing Chinese people not any governments, other Asians also have there own form of this. In Japan it is not so materialistic but cultural and aesthetic (see "Paris Syndrome").
The Chinese government is socially conservative and holding this behavior in check with authoritarianism and repression for their own purposes which are wanting to stay in power and being those elites everyone fawns over.

This behavior isn't present in every east Asian person because if it were, society would not be able to function. El Salvador has the world's highest murder rate but most citizens are not murderers.
The point I'm making is Asia is inclined in that direction just as northwestern Europe and the Anglo world is inclined towards the mentality that leads to extreme displays of ideological rigidity in the name of woke. You can conjecture that my speculation is conjecture but the incidents are real. The racism is real and observed, the fascination with western products is real and observed, the self hatred as a counterpart to white guilt is real and observed.

I am not being rhetorical when I ask this: what do you believe is going on in Asia?

[Muizer]

I don't know East Asian culture at all, but I don't think a parallel with Western wokeism has a chance of succeeding if you get that wrong to begin with.

[antaeus]

How do you know this is a thing? What studies or research have uncovered this about Chinese people in general?

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

How do you know this is a thing? What studies or research have uncovered this about Chinese people in general?

From experience as someone of Chinese descent living among Chinese people. This is not a topic that can be measured anymore than you can do a study on an Indian person's cultural aesthetics.
This has not progressed to the level of mainstream politics, one cannot identify as this or that with this behavior. It remains an observation. If you don't believe it is true, there is no need to demand proof, you can tell me what you believe. I already asked you what you believe is the reason behind these behaviors, and I predict you would say it has to do with the influence of white media combined with old fashioned racism amongst east Asians, right?

[mishkin]

I don't know why the term "woke" has been used here.

I have smoked bidis. stupid European snobbery. We have spent more than a century trying to make ourselves interesting with Asian products (ideas too). That on many occasions racism is mixed with classism is nothing new either. That the colonizers try to make the colonized feel inferior and sometimes succeed is not new either (happens even between European nations/ethnicities).

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

I don't know why the term "woke" has been used here.

I have smoked bidis. stupid European snobbery. We have spent more than a century trying to make ourselves interesting with Asian products (ideas too). That on many occasions racism is mixed with classism is nothing new either. That the colonizers try to make the colonized feel inferior and sometimes succeed is not new either (happens even between European nations/ethnicities).

What do you believe is the reason behind Chinese people drinking uber-priced Pabst Blue Ribbon?

[mishkin]

What do you believe is the reason behind Chinese people drinking uber-priced Pabst Blue Ribbon?

I have no idea what that is, but I guess either snobbery or a great publicity campaign or wanting to give the impression of high status (just like here in southern europe).

[Lord Thesaurian]

1. It is racism, but the underlying motivation is a counterpart to the motivations behind current leftist ideology in the west, (not that being on the left per se is wrong). This Asian motivation has not been politicized so we don't see mainstream politicians begging to be recolonized by the British, and the media doesn't obsess with mocking black people directly (but lots of commercials with white people so we may get there soon.) The motivation is wanting to associate with the elites, if it weren't westerners then it would be the elite in your own country. The mentality is a fascination with the modern and high status.

Thanks for making this thread. I was curious to get your thoughts on the topic because I hadn’t thought of the issue this way until you mentioned it. I get what you mean by “inverse wokism,” but I think the inverse manifestation is also a parallel motivation rooted in self-loathing, based on what you describe. For example, I would compare positive stereotypes around westerners in East Asia with the way western orientalism can assign positive stereotypes to Asians (Asians are smart, disciplined… see also: Weebs).

To put it another way, we could say “progress” in East Asia tends to be measured in terms of individual success as a rebellion against collectivism, whereas “progress” in the West focuses on equality as a rebellion against individualism. “Woke” western self loathing manifests as a desire to destroy perceived success as masochistic punishment and revenge whereas the eastern inverse is trying to stigmatize failure as punishment for a perceived lack of success. Perceived status or enlightenment manifests in opposite ways, but the shared root is internalized guilt. For a detailed look at how the western variety mirrors the eastern, see: luxury beliefs.

This behavior isn't present in every east Asian person because if it were, society would not be able to function. El Salvador has the world's highest murder rate but most citizens are not murderers.

The point I'm making is Asia is inclined in that direction just as northwestern Europe and the Anglo world is inclined towards the mentality that leads to extreme displays of ideological rigidity in the name of woke. You can conjecture that my speculation is conjecture but the incidents are real. The racism is real and observed, the fascination with western products is real and observed, the self hatred as a counterpart to white guilt is real and observed.

I think you are right on all counts, as evidenced by the clannish, dogmatic objections you’re getting to your OP. The western variety has been around long enough that it has developed from a grift to an industry to a form of institutional dominance to a state religion, with its own internal cultural norms and morality to be enforced by penalty of economic and social excommunication. Would you say the Asian counterpart is more or less pervasive? How so?

From experience as someone of Chinese descent living among Chinese people. This is not a topic that can be measured anymore than you can do a study on an Indian person's cultural aesthetics.

I’d imagine you probably could, but what’s probably lacking is an interest in doing so, contrasted with the western (former) conservative reaction to the new woke orthodoxy. Would you ascribe this difference to the comparatively “fringe” status of the phenomenon in Asia, or to something else altogether? After all, China is probably the most vocally anti-western government in Asia right now, and is making concerted efforts to create a sort of restorationist culture to eradicate what it sees as foreign influences, including individualism, capitalism, religion, etc.

[antaeus]

From experience as someone of Chinese descent living among Chinese people. This is not a topic that can be measured anymore than you can do a study on an Indian person's cultural aesthetics.
This has not progressed to the level of mainstream politics, one cannot identify as this or that with this behavior. It remains an observation. If you don't believe it is true, there is no need to demand proof, you can tell me what you believe. I already asked you what you believe is the reason behind these behaviors, and I predict you would say it has to do with the influence of white media combined with old fashioned racism amongst east Asians, right?

I can't give you a reason for these behaviours, because you can't show me these behaviours are common, or representative. There is no evidence presented for us to debate. There is no agreed premise for us to discuss. Just a random opinion about a bunch of assumed cultural stereotypes.

If there is no evidence of a situation occurring that can be shared, then we're just going to be debating one person's thoughts on a topic. If we have no way of knowing that what you are suggesting is common or uncommon, representative or not, then it's going to be a difficult discussion where people will just say what ever takes their fancy. In a conversation that includes common assumptions about cultural stereotypes that isn't constructive, and possibly even racist itself.

With this discussion having no basis of evidence, I can say "you're wrong about all of this" and my perspective will be equally as valid as yours. I don't even need to explain to you why you're wrong (I'm not saying you're wrong, just illustrating a point). You have presented a subjective observation. You are welcome to this. But it doesn't really present a lot to debate.

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

Thanks for making this thread. I was curious to get your thoughts on the topic because I hadn’t thought of the issue this way until you mentioned it. I get what you mean by “inverse wokism,” but I think the inverse manifestation is also a parallel motivation rooted in self-loathing, based on what you describe. For example, I would compare positive stereotypes around westerners in East Asia with the way western orientalism can assign positive stereotypes to Asians (Asians are smart, disciplined… see also: Weebs).

To put it another way, we could say “progress” in East Asia tends to be measured in terms of individual success as a rebellion against collectivism, whereas “progress” in the West focuses on equality as a rebellion against individualism. “Woke” western self loathing manifests as a desire to destroy perceived success as masochistic punishment and revenge whereas the eastern inverse is trying to stigmatize failure as punishment for a perceived lack of success. Perceived status or enlightenment manifests in opposite ways, but the shared root is internalized guilt. For a detailed look at how the western variety mirrors the eastern, see: luxury beliefs.

Mao tried to eradicate lots of traditional culture, and the simplification of Chinese characters is a symptom of this problem. Individual rebellion against collectivism exists as far as personal accomplishment (in the form of earning wealth often), but collectivism is a reality for how other behavior manifests. China desires so much to be seen as strong but hammers the nail that sticks out in the educational system. Hong Kong's anti-mainland protest movement manages to out-mainland the mainland with that. They value "individual success" so much it's almost criminal to try to attain it if you started off with so little. "Come and save us Donald Trump!"

The model minority stereotype bites the Asian American community in the behind, because if you are doing well then you must be exploiting the system or some other group for your own advantage. The desire to be modernistic prevents them from offering communitarian and old fashioned values as the reason behind their success.

I should be more specific back there, I did not mean "a desire to associate with elites" is the definition of this inverse-woke, but one way it can be viewed. It's deeper than that.
In Wholefoods they put dirt on potatoes to increase sales, but in Japan veggies are wrapped in lots of plastic and made to look clean. I would describe it as whatever THAT is at it's core for both "woke" and "inverse-woke" respectively.

I think you are right on all counts, as evidenced by the clannish, dogmatic objections you’re getting to your OP. The western variety has been around long enough that it has developed from a grift to an industry to a form of institutional dominance to a state religion, with its own internal cultural norms and morality to be enforced by penalty of economic and social excommunication. Would you say the Asian counterpart is more or less pervasive? How so?

It's pervasive in Hong Kong on the internet and the protest movement enough to cause riots, but it has no institutional dominance. Asia has never been a place where state religions with enforced theological dogma were present. A person could be a Buddhist and Taoist, believe in haunted houses, but not identify as religious. It's pervasive but not mandatory in most cases e.g. English language schools in east Asian have been known to hire non-native English speakers from Europe over non-white Americans. (But nobody forced the school to do that.)

Some form of it will play a big role in Korea. Recently news about Korean feminist movements in politics and on websites has been making rounds on the internet, but the male population is opposed to it. Korea has a serious issue with misogyny, but well known feminists individuals in the government and also groups pervasive on the Korean internet lacks western liberalism, they are reputedly homophobic, they care less about other social justice issues than western feminists, compassion isn't an ideal, but you shouldn't expect them to be for the same reason you shouldn't be shocked Korea is more patriarchal than the Anglo-Western European world.

I know they will be a driving force because western feminism is synonymous with their own "THAT".

I’d imagine you probably could, but what’s probably lacking is an interest in doing so, contrasted with the western (former) conservative reaction to the new woke orthodoxy. Would you ascribe this difference to the comparatively “fringe” status of the phenomenon in Asia, or to something else altogether? After all, China is probably the most vocally anti-western government in Asia right now, and is making concerted efforts to create a sort of restorationist culture to eradicate what it sees as foreign influences, including individualism, capitalism, religion, etc.

No reaction yet since it's not immediately concerning. I don't see a lot of theorizing going on, nobody has enough desire to conceptualize a reason. AQD has talked before with me about how there is little interest in the reason behind things happening as a trait in Chinese culture and I agree with him. I doubt that China is aware there is an inverse-woke mindset at the root of Hong Kong's opposition to them. They believe "colonization makes them western worshippers". But white supremacy enforced by imperialists is not at the root of it, and it's not at the root of any current events I can think of. That evil white foreigner in Kung Fu movies doesn't exist the way they think they do even thought there is a type that does. I'll elaborate on this later, I need time to think.

[Septentrionalis]

2. If to be woke is to be alert to injustice, then the reverse of woke is to be blind to injustice.

That is about as generous a description as you can give to woke.

I can't give you a reason for these behaviours, because you can't show me these behaviours are common, or representative. There is no evidence presented for us to debate. There is no agreed premise for us to discuss. Just a random opinion about a bunch of assumed cultural stereotypes.

If there is no evidence of a situation occurring that can be shared, then we're just going to be debating one person's thoughts on a topic. If we have no way of knowing that what you are suggesting is common or uncommon, representative or not, then it's going to be a difficult discussion where people will just say what ever takes their fancy. In a conversation that includes common assumptions about cultural stereotypes that isn't constructive, and possibly even racist itself.

With this discussion having no basis of evidence, I can say "you're wrong about all of this" and my perspective will be equally as valid as yours. I don't even need to explain to you why you're wrong (I'm not saying you're wrong, just illustrating a point). You have presented a subjective observation. You are welcome to this. But it doesn't really present a lot to debate.

You are hilarious. I am sure you are also unqualified to present any interpretation of a culture you have lived in your entire life.

[Septentrionalis]

A white European friend of mine who studied in China said that she got a lot of attention and people wanted to appear with her in photographs all the time. But it turned out usually that they were more interested in impressing their friends than developing a friendship with her.

[antaeus]

You are hilarious. I am sure you are also unqualified to present any interpretation of a culture you have lived in your entire life.

It's great to have your endorsement for comedy.

Regarding the interpretation of culture - there is a difference between presenting a casual subjective opinion on a culture, and presenting a data-set or article or evidence about people who identify as a culture, which can inform a perspective, and be debated.

This thread is the former, a bunch of opinions on a culture. It is based on the opinion of the author, wholly informed by their own subjective experience. We're not in the 'telling stories about our opinions' forum, we're in the 'political and scientific academy' forum. It just isn't good enough to go "I think Chinese people hate black people and wish they were white: debate me" (exaggerated for effect)

[Septentrionalis]

I have lived in Finland, got a basic education and a higher education in the country, served in its military, belonged to various clubs and had countless discussions with people from many walks of life. And I have observed for 25 years what people discuss online and in politics and witnessed what kind of ideas and attitudes win votes in elections, likes in social media, and nods in the local bar. I think I am qualified to describe what kinds of attitudes are common in my country.

I have no specific reason to assume that BoBoSha is completely oblivious to how people behave and think in his country and is just making stuff up. Especially since I have heard those same things from other people who are from East Asian countries or have had significant dealings with them. If he was claiming something truly extraordinary that would go against everything I have heard of China or East Asia (or people in general), that would be different.

However, if the subforum has such high standards, then I agree these discussions could be had somewhere else. I don't have any problem discussing those kinds of issues per se though, even in the absence of a worldwide web of racismological measurement stations providing scientific racism vibration data for international comparison.

[antaeus]

Yes. It's still hearsay. BoBoSha could be presenting us with an accurate assessment, or not. There is no way to know through our debate alone. If I was a mod, I'd just suggest that BoBoSha presented us with a few articles or opinion pieces or something to debate. I guess we get one paraphrase, that kind of euphemistically supports the thesis. I don't think an issue is an issue at all, if it can't be evidenced in some way beyond 'I think this thing' or 'I know someone who thinks this thing'

Also, racismological is a great word. If your years of service, Finnishness and long life on the internet have given us one thing which I think we can all agree is exceptional, it is that word.

[Bo1Bo1Sha3]

Yes. It's still hearsay. BoBoSha could be presenting us with an accurate assessment, or not. There is no way to know through our debate alone. If I was a mod, I'd just suggest that BoBoSha presented us with a few articles or opinion pieces or something to debate. I guess we get one paraphrase, that kind of euphemistically supports the thesis. I don't think an issue is an issue at all, if it can't be evidenced in some way beyond 'I think this thing' or 'I know someone who thinks this thing'

Also, racismological is a great word. If your years of service, Finnishness and long life on the internet have given us one thing which I think we can all agree is exceptional, it is that word.

My idea is original as far as I know. I can list examples of white worship and provide sources, but you already know it exists. I am offering up a description of a mentality that could be why.
The British colonized so many countries but it's Hong Kong that acts this way, "hur dur brainwashed by evil white man!" isn't an explanation for the white worship. It originates from something within the Asian society. Why are you so reluctant to try to tell me why you think I am wrong? If you aren't knowledgeable enough about east Asia to offer any insights or too uninterested to do so, then you can say so to make it more clear you just here to criticize this thread itself, but I don't sense that is the case.

[mishkin]

Bo1Bo1Sha3, couldn't you swap "worship for the white man" for "admiration to the metropolis/for the colonizers who have been selling themselves as superiors while practically calling us subhumans for decades"?

[antaeus]

Mimicking or admiring or pandering to those who have a history of power, authority, wealth while distaining those who don't isn't a unique cultural trait for Chinese people.

Why do hip hop artists wear bling while at the same time complaining about the man?