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Thread: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

  1. #21

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    Mao tried to eradicate lots of traditional culture, and the simplification of Chinese characters is a symptom of this problem. Individual rebellion against collectivism exists as far as personal accomplishment (in the form of earning wealth often), but collectivism is a reality for how other behavior manifests. China desires so much to be seen as strong but hammers the nail that sticks out in the educational system. Hong Kong's anti-mainland protest movement manages to out-mainland the mainland with that. They value "individual success" so much it's almost criminal to try to attain it if you started off with so little. "Come and save us Donald Trump!"

    It's pervasive in Hong Kong on the internet and the protest movement enough to cause riots, but it has no institutional dominance. Asia has never been a place where state religions with enforced theological dogma were present. A person could be a Buddhist and Taoist, believe in haunted houses, but not identify as religious. It's pervasive but not mandatory in most cases e.g. English language schools in east Asian have been known to hire non-native English speakers from Europe over non-white Americans. (But nobody forced the school to do that.)
    You'll find the common thread you notice also forms part of what links Maosim with the American communist and, in particular, black nationalist movements of the mid-late 20th century. I think, based on your understanding of that thread, you can appreciate the reasons why. As for the HK protest movement, I can't say I fully relate to or understand what you describe. I get the irony of being pressured to conform to a culture of materialism that feels imported, but I doubt it's as repressive as the CCP that crushed them. I'd wager the protestors were waving American and UK flags and English signage because they knew Beijing would brand them as foreign agents anyway, and they needed at least some international visibility and support if they were to have any chance at all. The outspoken affinity for democratic norms and the rule of law is certainly a result of foreign influence. As for white skin being a sign of beauty/success in East Asia, that predates colonialism.
    I should be more specific back there, I did not mean "a desire to associate with elites" is the definition of this inverse-woke, but one way it can be viewed. It's deeper than that.

    In Wholefoods they put dirt on potatoes to increase sales, but in Japan veggies are wrapped in lots of plastic and made to look clean. I would describe it as whatever THAT is at it's core for both "woke" and "inverse-woke" respectively.
    Of course, luxury beliefs are deeper than that, too. I'm not sure I can come up with a precise definition of what you describe. I'd imagine it's as much an amalgamation of traditional East Asian cultural values like intellectualism, work ethic and perseverance as it is perhaps conferring outsized importance on those things as a result of modernity. The traditional obsession with "face" merely injects steroids into the realities of capitalism, which has an impact everywhere, not just in Asia. I think what you associate with being "woke" or "anti-woke" here is the intensely competitive emphasis on public display of ideological conformity, and that's why you compared it to Chinese communism. But like I said, I can't fully relate, so perhaps I'm missing something.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    My idea is original as far as I know. I can list examples of white worship and provide sources, but you already know it exists. I am offering up a description of a mentality that could be why.
    The British colonized so many countries but it's Hong Kong that acts this way, "hur dur brainwashed by evil white man!" isn't an explanation for the white worship. It originates from something within the Asian society. Why are you so reluctant to try to tell me why you think I am wrong? If you aren't knowledgeable enough about east Asia to offer any insights or too uninterested to do so, then you can say so to make it more clear you just here to criticize this thread itself, but I don't sense that is the case.
    The model minority stereotype bites the Asian American community in the behind, because if you are doing well then you must be exploiting the system or some other group for your own advantage. The desire to be modernistic prevents them from offering communitarian and old fashioned values as the reason behind their success.
    I do think Americans understand the importance of family/community to East Asians, but I doubt you would find much traction for your idea with the Cult of Woke. These are the kind of people that claim Asian Americans are "part of the problem" of "whiteness," are therefore class/race traitors for the reasons you describe, and thus are basically white. Do you value work ethic and intellectualism? Sorry, looks like you were brainwashed by the White Man (TM). To accept that Asian Americans get ahead in part because many Asian cultures value things like work ethic and personal discipline would undermine the core of their ideology, which asserts "systemic racism" as the active ingredient in any societal disparity. Much like today's tankies that can't imagine any country other than America having agency in international affairs, the Cult of Woke necessarily believes one can either rebel against the whites or simp for them. It's a projection of their own racist ideology that places European colonialism at the center of human affairs, replacing class with race in the traditional framework of Marxism. It's how we got tenured professors like this American woman, who makes a living preaching the "anti" racist message that Africans discovered America and thus the whites need to be "taken out" as revenge for stealing not just the world, but reality itself.
    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    That is about as generous a description as you can give to woke.
    One of the ironies of the Cult of Woke is, demanding adherence to concepts like evidence and objectivity is an example of white supremacy, which I can only assume is a grave injustice.
    Now, math education itself has been deemed “racist.” A group of educators just released a document calling for a transformation of math education that focuses on “dismantling white supremacy in math classrooms by visibilizing the toxic characteristics of white supremacy culture with respect to math.”

    Beyond activism, these recommendations also argue that traditional approaches to math education promote racism and white supremacy, such as requiring students to show their work or prioritizing correct answers to math problems. The document claims that current math teaching is problematic because it focuses on “reinforcing objectivity and the idea that there is only one right way” while it “also reinforces paternalism.”

    https://fee.org/articles/woke-educat...ite-supremacy/
    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    Some form of it will play a big role in Korea. Recently news about Korean feminist movements in politics and on websites has been making rounds on the internet, but the male population is opposed to it. Korea has a serious issue with misogyny, but well known feminists individuals in the government and also groups pervasive on the Korean internet lacks western liberalism, they are reputedly homophobic, they care less about other social justice issues than western feminists, compassion isn't an ideal, but you shouldn't expect them to be for the same reason you shouldn't be shocked Korea is more patriarchal than the Anglo-Western European world.

    I know they will be a driving force because western feminism is synonymous with their own "THAT".
    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    A white European friend of mine who studied in China said that she got a lot of attention and people wanted to appear with her in photographs all the time. But it turned out usually that they were more interested in impressing their friends than developing a friendship with her.
    When I visited Korea, the young son of my wife's friend found me to be fascinating for similar reasons. He asked to hold my hand and take pics with me to brag to his friends that he met a "real American" for the first time, and wanted me to cart him around and hug him as though I were a favorite relative. Sweet kid. As it relates to the topic, I would chalk his affinity up to a fascination with the "other" he had heard about but never experienced first hand, and I'd imagine that's also why more liberal strata in East Asia are attracted to western norms they can relate to. Without institutional dominance, though, I wouldn't worry too much about feminism playing a big role going forward. The Korean president plans to close the short-lived "gender equality ministry" in any case. That'd get you assassinated in the US, if an angry mob didn't catch you first.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  2. #22

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    It's interesting that so far only one person has attempted to define the word 'woke' even though it's been bandied about throughout the thread.

    Anyway, OP seems pretty convoluted but I think I can see what you're getting at. I would say the cases of the West and East Asia are in a way, less different than you think. What you described is basically tokenism and yep, seems pretty pervasive in East Asia towards whites, especially in marketing, although in some areas you do see black people featured. The 'white worship' should be taken with a generous dose of salt, I would say that the dominant feeling of envy is in terms of physicality (preconceptions about stature, strength, curves, hair and eye-colour, 'face depth' etc.) and that white people are seen to represent 'authentic modernity' or coolness. Does that sound familiar at all? How for white westerners, having a nonwhite friend or partner at your side gives you social status in plenty of quarters, while in East Asia it's basically the same but for whites. It doesn't change the fact that underlying that, there are great depths of disdain towards all 'foreigners', including whites even if they receive less of it on average and it's never specifically targeted towards them. Being objectified, subjected to discrimination (even positive) and placed on a ridiculous pedestal is not something people generally want, and it would be silly to claim that the white populations or residents of East Asian countries have higher status than the ethnic majority. Basically, people aspire to accumulate surface features of whiteness for its perceived status, without ever wanting to be 'too white' or western. It's all very similar to what you see in the West with black folk. There is no unique interest in 'exotic' in the West, given that all non-ethnic-majority people in East Asia are automatically 'exotic' and 'fascinating' to many. What's different between the regions is what defines 'status' and that doesn't just apply to race, that's for sure.

    Of course, everything I said above is also applying to a smaller extent towards black people in East Asia too, with it becoming increasingly trendy or 'beneficial' to appropriate elements of what is perceived as 'blackness' for certain subsections of the majority culture.

    The Hong Kong case is something completely different. That's just, like with Taiwan, the incredible ability of Chinese governments to be so awful that they make people actually yearn for the old colonial days. Because, like with Russia, 'Chinese' identity is avidly politicized by the government and used as a tool, it forces people opposing it to seek out other vessels of identity to anchor themselves to.

    Of course this is all anecdotal but it seems like anecdotes are the fuel this entire thread is running on so whatever.
    Last edited by Inkie; December 07, 2022 at 10:17 PM.


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  3. #23

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Thesaurian View Post
    I do think Americans understand the importance of family/community to East Asians, but I doubt you would find much traction for your idea with the Cult of Woke. These are the kind of people that claim Asian Americans are "part of the problem" of "whiteness," are therefore class/race traitors for the reasons you describe, and thus are basically white. Do you value work ethic and intellectualism? Sorry, looks like you were brainwashed by the White Man (TM). To accept that Asian Americans get ahead in part because many Asian cultures value things like work ethic and personal discipline would undermine the core of their ideology, which asserts "systemic racism" as the active ingredient in any societal disparity. Much like today's tankies that can't imagine any country other than America having agency in international affairs, the Cult of Woke necessarily believes one can either rebel against the whites or simp for them. It's a projection of their own racist ideology that places European colonialism at the center of human affairs, replacing class with race in the traditional framework of Marxism. It's how we got tenured professors like this American woman, who makes a living preaching the "anti" racist message that Africans discovered America and thus the whites need to be "taken out" as revenge for stealing not just the world, but reality itself.
    It's a controversial topic, but I want to bring up Jewish people and reiterate on "modernism" (in the literal sense) because it ties into what you said. Jews do very well academically and have a high level of success in the west. This breeds resentment in the form of anti-Semitism, but they are given more sympathy by western liberals because the image they project for their culture places emphasis on being the "chosen people" and I don't mean elitism but choosing to describe themselves apart in their ways from others, ways descending from ancient tradition.
    China in the early 20th century was viewed more sympathetically because they were more pre-modern in values and culture.
    Eastern Orthodox Christianity comes under less scrutiny than other Christian denominations for beliefs because it has a holistic intuitive approach to theology which makes it seem more pleasingly mystical and ancient. China's will keep saying to the west "Look at our new high speed rail! Will you like us now?" but it does that opposite.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Bo1Bo1Sha3, couldn't you swap "worship for the white man" for "admiration to the metropolis/for the colonizers who have been selling themselves as superiors while practically calling us subhumans for decades"?
    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Mimicking or admiring or pandering to those who have a history of power, authority, wealth while distaining those who don't isn't a unique cultural trait for Chinese people.

    Why do hip hop artists wear bling while at the same time complaining about the man?
    The Latin American countries don't idealize the Spanish and their King the way Hong Kongers idealize the British and the late Queen Elizabeth.
    Even if some do, East Asians take it further because they have no culture of "sticking it to the man" concurrently going on. It may seem that way in the Hong Kong protests, in the beginning it was the case when old ladies and young children all marched together, but the diehards digging up the literal graves of the relatives of politicians they hate are not that way unless Guy Fawkes wishing to establish a Catholic monarch was "sticking it to the man".

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkie View Post
    The Hong Kong case is something completely different. That's just, like with Taiwan, the incredible ability of Chinese governments to be so awful that they make people actually yearn for the old colonial days. Because, like with Russia, 'Chinese' identity is avidly politicized by the government and used as a tool, it forces people opposing it to seek out other vessels of identity to anchor themselves to.
    Taiwan isn't acting the way Hong Kong is. Hong Kong had circumstances leading to woke introduced by the British leading to their own ideological movement. The CCP's authoritarianism isn't solely responsible for the colonial yearning, because a large part of this resentment is anti-Han at it's core. Well known members of the protest movement have gone further and justified the Opium War, and praised the Japanese occupation of China. Technically they're getting something right, that the CCP is really Chinese, without the current ideology China will be better off but a lot of the problems are in character for China.
    The level of corruption in the Qing dynasty was enormous, you can ask AQD more. He also describes much of the current issues with China as inherently Chinese.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; December 07, 2022 at 11:02 PM. Reason: Edit: Added response
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  4. #24
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    The Latin American countries don't idealize the Spanish and their King the way Hong Kongers idealize the British and the late Queen Elizabeth.
    Even if some do, East Asians take it further because they have no culture of "sticking it to the man" concurrently going on. It may seem that way in the Hong Kong protests, in the beginning it was the case when old ladies and young children all marched together, but the diehards digging up the literal graves of the relatives of politicians they hate are not that way unless Guy Fawkes wishing to establish a Catholic monarch was "sticking it to the man".
    You may frame the argument how you please.

    Latin American countries have historically mimicked the styles and fashions of their former colonial overlords. And there are plenty of examples of indigenous peoples across the Americas taking on the styles, languages, cultural traits of countries that conquered them. I own a Gucci suit. Why do I own that suit? Be cause it's designers, through style and marketing infused the suit with a sense of Italian avant-garde that I find appealing. I would not at all want to wear a suit from Primark, because it represents robotic cheapness. There are plenty of people around my country who dislike minorities and think them less.

    It could be said to be a universal, that cultures when confronted with difference, pick and choose what they admire and look down on what they don't. To claim it is a Chinese thing is to not understand cultural change.

    Not only do you not provide any evidence for your claims, the claims are so silly as to be nonsensical.
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  5. #25
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Bo1Bo1Sha3, could you rephrase the question/topic? We're on the second page and I don't know if this is about the use that brands make of different races, the relationship between the colonizers and the colonized, racism, capitalism, the need for minorities/migrants to work twice as hard.... And most alarming of all, I have the impression that someone is going to talk about cultural Marxism at any moment.

  6. #26

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    It could be said to be a universal, that cultures when confronted with difference, pick and choose what they admire and look down on what they don't. To claim it is a Chinese thing is to not understand cultural change.
    It's an obsession in Asia, what do you want me to do? Find a census where 10,000 random individuals rank how many products they bought from a country?
    There are no studies measuring these personality traits. Mexican food is spicier than Norwegian food, how do I prove that? I could tell you about the food there, I could make you dishes from Mexico, but none of these qualify as proof since the methodology is flawed in both cases. If you fly over there, you could try it yourself but it could always just be that one restaurant or home, how do you know this is how it is across the country?


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Bo1Bo1Sha3, could you rephrase the question/topic? We're on the second page and I don't know if this is about the use that brands make of different races, the relationship between the colonizers and the colonized, racism, capitalism, the need for minorities/migrants to work twice as hard.... And most alarming of all, I have the impression that someone is going to talk about cultural Marxism at any moment.
    This is my point:
    The west has woke ideology, woke ideology springs from certain behaviors and mental complexes. Asia has the inverse patterns of thinking, that doesn't mean there is an ideology or movement (yet) coming from it.
    Woke springs from sympathy for the vulnerable and fascination with the exotic, and much of what Lord Thesaurian said.

    Inverse-woke comes from obsession with high status, the modern, and an worshipping "success".

    Both emerge in developed societies where neither social conservatism or authoritarianism is holding them in check.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  7. #27
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    You can be woke (aware of your privileges and the discrimination suffered by other groups and minorities around you) and be obsessed with job success, presenting an image of a winner and modernity.

    I think that it would have been better to create a discussion to talk about "the woke ideology" and another to talk about how some asians are obsessed with "success in its western version" or something like that.

  8. #28

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    You can be woke (aware of your privileges and the discrimination suffered by other groups and minorities around you) and be obsessed with job success, presenting an image of a winner and modernity.

    I think that it would have been better to create a discussion to talk about "the woke ideology" and another to talk about how some asians are obsessed with "success in its western version" or something like that.
    What do you think I am trying to say and why do you disagree?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  9. #29
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    I think you're trying to explain a new and distinctive pattern of behavior in Asia (you've talked about obsession with modernity, admiration for "white" and western...) and for some reason I don't understand you want to connect it with "woke thought".

    Now that I say it, curiosity arises, isn't there a "woke" rise in east asians? There is no concern about racism, machismo, the mistreatment of the less favored classes, the LGTBI collective?
    Last edited by mishkin; December 09, 2022 at 05:06 AM.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkie View Post
    It's interesting that so far only one person has attempted to define the word 'woke' even though it's been bandied about throughout the thread.
    It's become a typical right wing pejorative, mainly. IMHO there's broadly speaking at least 6 different attitudes towards 'woke' and injustice

    - the victim: to whom injustice is part of their lived experience.
    - the theorist: scholars who spent much time and effort on research, distilling a generic framework of oppression into recommendations
    - the acolyte: activists who have read the synopsis, but who have neither personal experience nor researched knowledge to base decisions on and resort to checklists instead.
    - the open minded: have also read the synopsis and sympathise, but also recognize the limitations of their knowledge and experience and don't feel confident to tell other people what is right and what is not and in many cases will cautiously opt for the classical liberal's approach.
    - the classical liberal: considers the methods of wokism (social engineering) a threat to their own ideals, which hold that individual freedoms are sacrosanct and the key to a just society.
    - the conservative/reactionary: considers the goals of wokeism themselves as a threat. Considers oppressive measures legit, as long as they serve to (re)impose their own values on society.

    Problem in discussions is you always have to consider that actual racists from the last group usually know their views are unpopular and therefore argue the classical liberal's case instead. It's often very difficult to tell them apart. Though it will reveal itself when they have to take sides on issues where the classical liberal and conservative/reactionary are at odds (e.g. the role of religion in society).
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #31

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I think you're trying to explain a new and distinctive pattern of behavior in Asia (you've talked about obsession with modernity, admiration for "white" and western...) and for some reason I don't understand you want to connect it with "woke thought".

    Now that I say it, curiosity arises, isn't there a "woke" rise in east asians? There is no concern about racism, machismo, the mistreatment of the less favored classes, the LGTBI collective?
    This behavior is from underlying motivations behind a pattern what I observe is behind "woke".

    There are Asian people trying to be "woke", but it's limited to a small number of genuine believers and a larger than that amount of imitators of the west.
    Asians in the USA (I don't know if this is true for Europe) want to since "do as the romans do", so consequently develop identarian political ideologies as imitations of the original.
    Asian men are the only group other than white men who are open to criticism for sexism, racism, all the -isms for the reasons I have explained previously.
    "Evil white colonizer" has an Asian version which is the "Confucian oppressor".
    (That would make me the most evil son of a in the world like Mike Shinoda and Henry Golding, lol.)

    Who the criticism is directed to feels arbitrary and I will list three examples:
    -The Norwegian teen drama Skam has a Muslim character who avoid alcohol, remains a virgin, and is religious, and her love interest is descended from a majority Muslim country despite not being religious himself.
    (This is treated as a positive female message, but what would happen if this character was an Asian girl in a traditional household or a white Christian girl?)
    -The Aladdin live action movie has a white foreign prince shown as a potential husband but Jasmine in the end marries Aladdin.
    -The Princess and Frog movie made the male lead Prince Naveen ethnically ambiguous because they if they showed the female lead Tiana with a white man Disney worried it would imply a black woman shouldn't be with a black man (but they didn't make him black to avoid saying interracial marriage is wrong).
    (I want to be clear I am not against a person's right to be religious and chaste or marry someone of their own ethnicity, or do the opposite of those two either.)


    These are all backed by left leaning producers and directors in spite of contradicting ideals stated as "woke".
    These underlying motivations including why the model minority stereotype opens Asian culture up to more scrutiny is part of why "woke" is the way it is.
    "Woke" as I define it refers to the way things are in the west with politics.
    It is synonymous with leftism nowadays but it is not the same as leftism, you can be left wing but not "woke".
    You can be tolerant of gays and support women's rights without being this way.
    These example contradict what "woke" claims as their beliefs, so you can't exactly call "woke" extreme leftism per se because a leftist extremist would bash the above examples furiously for sexism and being anti-interracial marriage if they were objective in their beliefs. If a left winger criticizes right wing non-whites for the same thing he criticizes right wing whites for, does he stop being left wing? (Not talking about internalized racism or what you would accuse said non-white person.)
    "Woke" is where the conundrums and false geases come from.
    Do you understand what I mean by "woke" now?

    Asia has an inverse mentality.
    Asian society has motivations that are inverted to what leads to "woke". It all fits, it explains the counterpart behaviors and counterpart means to increase one's status.
    "Woke" is a term I am using to refer to a pervasive way of thinking that explains why everything is the way it is in politics and media in the Anglo and northwestern European world.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; December 09, 2022 at 08:05 AM. Reason: Added detail
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  12. #32
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    It may be my fault, but I'm having a hard time understanding your message. That said I think you clearly have a very distorted idea of what it is to be "woke" and I think it is a problem that you believe that any interest on the part of Asians in understanding the privileges they may have and the injustices that groups around them may suffer is a pose to imitate the white "wokes".

  13. #33

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Inkie
    It's interesting that so far only one person has attempted to define the word 'woke' even though it's been bandied about throughout the thread.
    Not to be snide, but no formal explanation is necessary to an American audience. The term began as an African American reference to being awakened (hence woke) to the insidious conspiracy of oppression, typically understood to be perpetrated by the white race, but also, by extension, Jews for obvious reasons. This is also why you’ll find significant overlap between the far left, black nationalists and anti-Semites, even today. The concept has since been formally adopted by western and especially American academia as “critical race theory,” thanks to Marxist activists in the late 20th century, which today has been laundered into the political, social and educational mainstream as the concept of “systemic racism.”
    I was a member of the founding conference….. The school was a center of left academic legal thought. The school was a center of left academic legal thought. So we gathered at that convent for two and a half days, around a table in an austere room with stained glass windows and crucifixes here and there-an odd place for a bunch of Marxists-and worked out a set of principles. Then we went our separate ways. Most of us who were there have gone on to become prominent critical race theorists, including Kim Crenshaw, who spoke at the Iowa conference, as well as Mani Matsuda and Charles Lawrence, who both are here in spirit. Derrick Bell, who was doing critical race theory long before it had a name, was at the Madison workshop and has been something of an intellectual godfather for the movement. So we were off and running.

    In the mid 1990s, educators began to hear about critical race theory, and a few of them started out studying basic writings in the hope of finding ideas that they could apply to the problems they were studying. African American, Latino, and other minority graduate students who planned to go out into the community and become teachers and reform schools began to find each other in their field, just as the critical race theory and law people found each other there earlier.

    Perhaps the young will push Obama to go past what his advisors want, as they only want small incremental changes. He needs to be pushed by the very people who fueled his campaign…..People need to use this time in history to create structural reform, and reverse the counter-reform of the past Presidential terms.

    https://digitalcommons.law.seattleu....ontext=faculty
    It’s easy to see, then, how an African American colloquialism was adopted by radical leftist authoritarians seeking to “create structural reform” and foster racial identity politics according to the old Marxist paradigm of class consciousness. That’s what “woke” means today.
    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer
    It's become a typical right wing pejorative, mainly. IMHO there's broadly speaking at least 6 different attitudes towards 'woke' and injustice

    Problem in discussions is you always have to consider that actual racists from the last group usually know their views are unpopular and therefore argue the classical liberal's case instead. It's often very difficult to tell them apart. Though it will reveal itself when they have to take sides on issues where the classical liberal and conservative/reactionary are at odds (e.g. the role of religion in society).
    As per above, the facts of the matter, according to primary sources, flip your categorization on its head. The actual racists, whom you adequately describe as theorists and acolytes, know their “woke” views are unpopular and therefore argue the victim’s case instead. It’s only difficult to tell them apart because those whom you describe as “open-minded” gaslight the rest of us in order to launder the racists’ views into mainstream society. “The theorists/acolytes aren’t real and if they are they have no intention of implementing their ideas and if they do that’s good and if it isn’t they aren’t real….”Hence the white supremacists who allegedly control the world are societal outcasts and those who give speaking tours about how the world would be so much better without white people in it are respected intellectuals, activists and celebrities.
    Quote Originally Posted by Pingas
    It's a controversial topic, but I want to bring up Jewish people and reiterate on "modernism" (in the literal sense) because it ties into what you said. Jews do very well academically and have a high level of success in the west. This breeds resentment in the form of anti-Semitism, but they are given more sympathy by western liberals because the image they project for their culture places emphasis on being the "chosen people" and I don't mean elitism but choosing to describe themselves apart in their ways from others, ways descending from ancient tradition.
    China in the early 20th century was viewed more sympathetically because they were more pre-modern in values and culture.
    Eastern Orthodox Christianity comes under less scrutiny than other Christian denominations for beliefs because it has a holistic intuitive approach to theology which makes it seem more pleasingly mystical and ancient. China's will keep saying to the west "Look at our new high speed rail! Will you like us now?" but it does that opposite.
    Small correction that nevertheless fits with what you’re getting at, I think. American conservative Christians are typically sympathetic to Jews for religious reasons, but anti-Semitic tropes fit well into the global conspiracy alleged by the Cult of Woke. This, coupled with the outsized performance of the Jewish minority, is how the Cult has managed to merge Jews with whites in their imaginary hierarchy of oppression, for the same reasons as Asian Americans. That’s why we saw Black Lives Matter launch anti-Israel campaigns and protests, even though Israel has nothing to do with American civil rights or the alleged plight of African Americans.
    "Woke" is where the conundrums and false geases come from.
    Do you understand what I mean by "woke" now?

    Asia has an inverse mentality.
    Asian society has motivations that are inverted to what leads to "woke". It all fits, it explains the counterpart behaviors and counterpart means to increase one's status.
    "Woke" is a term I am using to refer to a pervasive way of thinking that explains why everything is the way it is in politics and media in the Anglo and northwestern European world.
    All ideologies have their share of contradictions, but you’re correct to observe that the Cult of Woke is a self-refuting, terminally hypocritical, quasi-religious morass. If I understand you correctly, you mean to apply its ideological absolutism to both sides of your equation to explain their respective toxicities, both of which conflate ideological conformity with merit and status.
    Of these facts there cannot be any shadow of doubt: for instance, that civil society was renovated in every part by Christian institutions; that in the strength of that renewal the human race was lifted up to better things-nay, that it was brought back from death to life, and to so excellent a life that nothing more perfect had been known before, or will come to be known in the ages that have yet to be. - Pope Leo XIII

  14. #34
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    It's an obsession in Asia, what do you want me to do? Find a census where 10,000 random individuals rank how many products they bought from a country?
    That would be a start, yes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    There are no studies measuring these personality traits.
    Then again, all you're offering is your unevidenced opinion that is prone to confirmation bias, cognitive bias, etc etc etc... I can't debate that.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    Mexican food is spicier than Norwegian food, how do I prove that?
    You can't. It's subjective. That's the point. But you could do a wide reaching survey, or for argument's sake find one that someone else has done, and evidence it as a widely held view.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    I could tell you about the food there, I could make you dishes from Mexico, but none of these qualify as proof since the methodology is flawed in both cases. If you fly over there, you could try it yourself but it could always just be that one restaurant or home, how do you know this is how it is across the country?
    And thus, you finally see my point.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  15. #35

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    https://web.archive.org/web/20110609...ke-in-my-wine/

    In China, there are those who mix expensive wines with coke or sprite to make it more palatable. It's the image of sophistication.
    Next time you see a pompous foreign goods obsessed smug baldhead do this, my theory will give you a clue why.

    I'm still in the process of finding a survey or suitable article that meets your criteria but this should be interesting to you.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  16. #36
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Or it is simple a basque new rich snob. Or argentinian. Or chilenian. Or croatian. Or south-african.

    Calimocho - Wikipedia


    There are also many tourists in Turkiye, whic are buying faked label stuff to look richer than they are.

    Thats not specific a chinese thing.
    Last edited by Morticia Iunia Bruti; December 12, 2022 at 09:47 AM.
    Did you ever think for a second
    I'm only human too.
    You have no perception of all the struggles that I have been through.
    Listening to the nothingness I'm hearing while I watch your lips move.
    If you really knew me, you'd think twice about creating my truth.

    Kobra and the Lotus - You don't know

  17. #37

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    Or it is simple a basque new rich snob. Or argentinian. Or chilenian. Or croatian. Or south-african.

    Calimocho - Wikipedia


    There are also many tourists in Turkiye, whic are buying faked label stuff to look richer than they are.

    Thats not specific a chinese thing.
    The context matters, and I've drunk wine and cola, but expensive wine isn't used for it.
    They are doing that to look richer, not impress everyone or themselves with western products for being western. The Turks look back to the Ottoman Empire as a proud time in history, they don't want to be westerners from what I know.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  18. #38
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    When did this phenomenon start? (approximately of course)

  19. #39

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    When did this phenomenon start? (approximately of course)
    The evolution of what one sees as the Chinese mindset stretches back to the beginning of the imperial period of Chinese history.
    Sun Tzu's level of rational analysis is rare in latter Chinese history.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  20. #40
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    just trying to confirm that the woke was not responsible for any new stupidity in asia.

    (and I'm still not very sure about what this is all about, as I suppose is obvious)

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