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Thread: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

  1. #41

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    just trying to confirm that the woke was not responsible for any new stupidity in asia.

    (and I'm still not very sure about what this is all about, as I suppose is obvious)
    Okay, one more shot:
    In some languages "black" is associated with the lower classes, "white" is a very upper class word.
    The Asian inverse to woke is related to "whiteness" and I do not mean literally being a European.
    In Japan centuries ago, the upper classes all stayed indoors and the women lightened their skin just as they try to do now, it would be a privilege for a commoner to marry into higher social circles, and there was a way for that to happen, and in the process they gain "whiteness". It's a whole package of things besides lighter skin.
    East Asians are motivated to ever try to reach closer to "whiteness", and they have encountered a group of people who they have deemed "whiter" than themselves.

    The is inverse to the Anglo and western European people's woke mindset in which there is attention turned to being one of the darker commoners, or the peasants, or the ancient tribe. People in Europe literally tan their skin, there is a subconscious association with exoticness that gives tanned skin it's appeal.
    Northwest Europeans and Anglo countries are trying hard to be unlike how they perceive themselves, as "whites".

    White people want to rebel against "whiteness", rebel against "the man" and his institutions, this is what motivates woke;
    Asian people value "whiteness", and see plenty in white people, and want to gain access to "the man's" social circles, this is what motivates inverse-woke.
    The way they manifest are also inverse counterparts. You could make a list and find numerous examples, such as media inclusion of certain races in works.

    Here something I recently thought of:
    There is a type of food in called yoshoku in Japan which is based on the western dishes many originally created to imitate the food of Europeans because of the association of Europeans with status and sophistication.
    The current western counterpart is exotic ethnic food made in bistros using ingredients acai berry and quinoa, for the association with indigenous Americans who supposedly all live a non-modern lifestyle.

    Can you understand how these are counterparts? If so, what is the underlying motivation?
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; December 20, 2022 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Details
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  2. #42
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    I am European and the description you make of that "woke Europe" seems to me, excuse me, a joke. I don't know anyone with the characteristics you describe; it could be that I don't know anyone woke, and that I am not myself to my disappointment. Some northerners want to get tanned thinking that this will make them more attractive, not because "brownness" is associated with modernity or the upper classes, and all this leaving aside the racism that has never left all of Europe.

    Regarding Asia, excuse me, but I have the impression that you are simply scandalized by a global market. We Europeans smoke bidis and buy colognes advertised by Asian models, Asians associate good quality clothes with some European countries, and we all drink coke like stupid and it seems perfectly normal to us.

  3. #43

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    I can understand Bobo's points, but I think he might just leave the difficult concept of woke out of the equation because xenophilias and racial preference hierarchies can be discussed without mixing it in.

    They are not completely detached in the west, though, as the woke movement offers such fierce resistance to a post-racial society in which race and ethnicity have little meaning. As opposed to being the main arbitrator of what a person can say, do, wear, etc.

  4. #44
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    This discussion should be dissected into several threads.

  5. #45
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    The Second German Empire (till 1914): White untanned skin = Being Noble / Upperclass /Educated, no working class

    Weimarer Republic (1919) till today: Brown tanned skin = Healthy, young, sporty, attractive
    White skin = sick, unfit, unattractive
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  6. #46
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    The people north of the Pyrenees (netherlands) seemed pretty happy to me, not a trace of complexes due to their whiteness. And now I understand that the sidelong glances were due to the fact that they were disturbed to be in the presence of the superior race, the children of the sun.

  7. #47
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Its not about race, its about image and cult of youth.
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  8. #48

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    The Second German Empire (till 1914): White untanned skin = Being Noble / Upperclass /Educated, no working class

    Weimarer Republic (1919) till today: Brown tanned skin = Healthy, young, sporty, attractive
    White skin = sick, unfit, unattractive
    What social changes were underway during this era in Germany that everyone changed their preferences this way?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  9. #49
    Morticia Iunia Bruti's Avatar Praeses
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Change from monarchy to republic
    Cause tomorrow is a brand-new day
    And tomorrow you'll be on your way
    Don't give a damn about what other people say
    Because tomorrow is a brand-new day


  10. #50
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    What social changes were underway during this era in Germany that everyone changed their preferences this way?
    The status signaled by skin tan in Europe, I believe, is commonly understood to be the result of urbanisation / industrialisation in the 19th century. Before that time, in predominantly agricultural societies, tanned skin signaled outdoors labour (low status) and pale skin signaled indoor work (notables) or no work at all (aristocrats). With urbanisation and industrialisation, pale skin became associated with long working hours indoors (factories) and malnourishment, whereas tanned skin became associated health and leasure, implying wealth.
    We're talking about mid 19th century to early 20th century here, btw. Western european societies were not multicultural at the time. That was not triggered until after WWII (decolonisation and reconstruction driven labour migration). So it is kind of irrelevant to the whole woke thing, which is American in origin anyway.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  11. #51

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I can understand Bobo's points, but I think he might just leave the difficult concept of woke out of the equation because xenophilias and racial preference hierarchies can be discussed without mixing it in.

    They are not completely detached in the west, though, as the woke movement offers such fierce resistance to a post-racial society in which race and ethnicity have little meaning. As opposed to being the main arbitrator of what a person can say, do, wear, etc.
    I'm going to elaborate some more now that I've given it thought.
    Western society is omnipresent, western values are omnipresent, western languages are widely spoken with English as an international language, hamburgers, coca-cola, and birthday cakes are eaten worldwide and Asians are fascinated with conforming to the prevailing and dominant culture in the world or identifying with it.
    Even before east Asians countries have opened up to western contact, this predisposition to inverse-woke before already manifested in some form.
    People in China all want to be Han even if they are mixed with minority ancestry (Han ancestry is varied enough to divide them into several ethnic groups but this is ignored).
    Nobody is boasting about being 1/8 Miao. Everyone wants to belong to the same prevailing socially powerful identity, so there is no intersectional language, no multiple categories for sexualities, the end goal is conformism, but this is arguably identity politics with a diametrically opposed motivation.
    This is why inverse-woke is such a succinctly useful term albeit after explanation. It covers everything, it's a mindset, it's not one single thing.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; February 05, 2023 at 12:39 AM. Reason: Word choice
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  12. #52

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    This is why inverse-woke is such a succinctly useful term albeit after explanation. It covers everything, it's a mindset, it's not one single thing.
    So the essence of the argument you are making is that there is a reverse trend in Asia (or parts of Asia) to what is happening in the west in terms of internal culture, but in relation to the outside world, Asians are adopting western ways of doing things? With the exception of multiculturalism and the like?

    I agree that the western world is influencing the rest quite a bit. For now at least. It won't change the general point, but I never would have guessed in my childhood or youth that in 2023 white people in Helsinki routinely eat with chopsticks (as do I) to the degree that many places do not bother setting the tables with forks and knifes. .

  13. #53
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    They are not completely detached in the west, though, as the woke movement offers such fierce resistance to a post-racial society in which race and ethnicity have little meaning. As opposed to being the main arbitrator of what a person can say, do, wear, etc.
    I guess there are complicating factors to the idea of a post-racial society.

    One example is the long tail of colonialism, where in some Western countries, there are still people alive today who weren't technically considered human when they were born. There are middle aged people who were disenfranchised because of the luck of their ethnicity of birth. And there are communities who are dealing with impoverishment as a direct result of government actions based on racial discrimination in the very recent past.

    In these scenarios the red-herring 'anti-woke/conservative' brigade has become aligned with resistance to compensation for wrongs committed to people who are still alive - largely because compensation for a wrong committed based on ethnicity is seen itself as an ethnicity based solution.

    So while on one hand, we academically state that judgements based on ethnicity or race are inherently wrong and we should move past them, on the other hand we also have to deal with the direct consequences of previous action based on judgements.

    Similarly, arguments as to past treatment of people who identify with different genders or political beliefs or other identity tropes become mired in cyclic debates - "compensate* me for the treatment you dished out to me based on my identity vs we can't compensate you for your mistreatment because that would be continuing to use the basis for your mistreatment as a metric" In conflicts of this nature which can't be easily solved, it is easy to see how views harden and become more extreme on the fringes.

    Perhaps in different contexts the details might differ, but in any debate over past wrongs there comes a point in which the wrong-doers or their decedents become detached enough from the wrong to be able to say 'enough now, just get over it'

    *compensation being a figure of speech for any form of legal, social, cultural or what ever correction.
    Last edited by antaeus; February 05, 2023 at 07:03 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  14. #54

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    So the essence of the argument you are making is that there is a reverse trend in Asia (or parts of Asia) to what is happening in the west in terms of internal culture, but in relation to the outside world, Asians are adopting western ways of doing things? With the exception of multiculturalism and the like?

    I agree that the western world is influencing the rest quite a bit. For now at least. It won't change the general point, but I never would have guessed in my childhood or youth that in 2023 white people in Helsinki routinely eat with chopsticks (as do I) to the degree that many places do not bother setting the tables with forks and knifes. .
    Not adopting Western ways as in truly understanding them, they have their own conception of it, they don't truly understand aspects of it just as westerners might have an outsider idealized view of south Asian religion ignoring that homophobia and castes being present (and not the fault of the British).

    I know about people in Hong Kong who see western societies success as a bigshot society where the alpha romps around, and a Hong Konger might feel inferiority for their own society for being less accomplished.
    Western society in it's ideal state is not that at all (though white nationalists wish to believe it is), non-violent cooperation and concern for the wellbeing of the group including strangers is important.

    The point I'm making is before even Europeans came onto the scene this mindset existed, but because western influence is now present, it's westerners who it's directed towards.
    There are many reverse/inverse trends, it's not a single thing but an inverse mindset to woke that leads to many counterpart behaviors being opposite or inverted versions of the woke one.
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; February 05, 2023 at 09:28 PM.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  15. #55
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    Not adopting Western ways as in truly understanding them, they have their own conception of it, they don't truly understand aspects of it just as westerners might have an outsider idealized view of south Asian religion ignoring that homophobia and castes being present (and not the fault of the British).

    I know about people in Hong Kong who see western societies success as a bigshot society where the alpha romps around, and a Hong Konger might feel inferiority for their own society for being less accomplished.
    Western society in it's ideal state is not that at all (though white nationalists wish to believe it is), non-violent cooperation and concern for the wellbeing of the group including strangers is important.

    The point I'm making is before even Europeans came onto the scene this mindset existed, but because western influence is now present, it's westerners who it's directed towards.
    There are many reverse/inverse trends, it's not a single thing but an inverse mindset to woke that leads to many counterpart behaviors being opposite or inverted versions of the woke one.
    What do you know about people in Hong Kong? Next to nothing. They hail us, wanting to join the western free market.

    You think you can do without us Westerners, or "white people"? You wouldn't even understand the word "socialism" without us. Without us Europeans alone, you would still be cought in some sort of medieval nightmare of sorts. You owe us everything! Show me one country where you can walk in as a free person, expecting not only freedom, but the right to vote, the free access to media or the pursuit of happiness. You would not even know the internet without us, where you can and complain endlessly about what you cannot have where white people have not cracked up your borders to open you to our trade and ideas of the freedom you can enjoy, only because of us!

    The middle East, Africa, even India and especially China are all closed to us. Show me in whitch non-"white" country are the borders as open as those as in Europe or the USA! There is nothing of the sort. And that fills you with envy and dispair!
    Last edited by swabian; February 07, 2023 at 01:24 AM.

  16. #56

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    What do you know about people in Hong Kong? Next to nothing. They hail us, wanting to join the western free market.

    You think you can do without us Westerners, or "white people"? You wouldn't even understand the word "socialism" without us. Without us Europeans alone, you would still be cought in some sort of medieval nightmare of sorts. You owe us everything! Show me one country where you can walk in as a free person, expecting not only freedom, but the right to vote, the free access to media or the pursuit of happiness. You would not even know the internet without us, where you can and complain endlessly about what you cannot have where white people have not cracked up your borders to open you to our trade and ideas of the freedom you can enjoy, only because of us!

    The middle East, Africa, even India and especially China are all closed to us. Show me in whitch non-"white" country are the borders as open as those as in Europe or the USA! There is nothing of the sort. And that fills you with envy and dispair!
    I have no idea why you are responding this way, I know you believe I am saying something anti-western but I don't know why or what you are misinterpreting. I will need to give it some thought.
    Did you read what I said? Hong Kongers look at western society through a lens, just as westerners see foreign society through a lens. All those positive attributes of western society you list only work in a society where people are willing to accept the responsibility and cultural requirements that comes with it, and your attitude here of is contrary to those values. There are plenty of reasons based in practicality not to have unrestricted open borders, but a chauvinistic attitude isn't one of them.

    Edit: Who was your response addressed to?
    Last edited by Bo1Bo1Sha3; February 08, 2023 at 04:01 AM.
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

  17. #57

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bo1Bo1Sha3 View Post
    I have no idea why you are responding this way

    (...)

    Edit: Who was your response addressed to?
    I think that response was addressed to some internal demons in his mind. Don't worry about it. You were being too kind in your own response given the bizarre accusations. I don't think that I am the only person here who continues to take your word for what takes place in Hong Kong over that of someone who does not even live in Hong Kong like you do.

  18. #58
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I think that response was addressed to some internal demons in his mind. Don't worry about it. You were being too kind in your own response given the bizarre accusations. I don't think that I am the only person here who continues to take your word for what takes place in Hong Kong over that of someone who does not even live in Hong Kong like you do.
    People are sceptical because it is not an argument backed by evidence, but rather a set of theories based on personal or anecdotal experiences, which are subject to biases that haven't been checked for. In this respect, this thread probably belongs in the Ethos, as it isn't a debate, it's a speculation about cultural norms.
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  19. #59
    swabian's Avatar igni ferroque
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    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    I think that response was addressed to some internal demons in his mind. Don't worry about it. You were being too kind in your own response given the bizarre accusations. I don't think that I am the only person here who continues to take your word for what takes place in Hong Kong over that of someone who does not even live in Hong Kong like you do.
    Close enough.

    @Bo1Bo1Sha3: It was bad mood and alcohol talking. I completely misunderstood. Sorry. I don't know what exactly motivated me to say that, but I vaguely remember that I had a bad guilty feeling when I pressed the "send" button. Again, apologies.

    It probably was because I confused it with stuff that I read on another website.

  20. #60

    Default Re: The east Asian counterpart to woke ideology.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    Close enough.

    @Bo1Bo1Sha3: It was bad mood and alcohol talking. I completely misunderstood. Sorry. I don't know what exactly motivated me to say that, but I vaguely remember that I had a bad guilty feeling when I pressed the "send" button. Again, apologies.

    It probably was because I confused it with stuff that I read on another website.
    I'm curious to know your opinions of this inverse woke theory now that you are sober. What do you think?
    "牛鬼蛇神的文字" by Fu Sinian on Chinese characters.
    ("A Cow Demon and Snake God's Writing System")

    "汉字不灭,中国必亡" Lu Xun also on Chinese characters.
    ("If Chinese Characters don't die, China will perish")

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