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Thread: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Here you can watch a Republican candidate for the senate in 2020 saying some things that would have been controversial 100 years ago and are downright bonkers today.

    The interview speaks for itself. Please listen the entire minute of it, there various gems there that would have made my grandfather (born in 1914) cringe if he was alive today.

    Sidestepping for the time the hilari-tragic comment, let's dive to the 2020 numbers:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lauren...ctoral_history
    In the primaries for who Delaware Republicans would put on the ballot, Mrs Christianotaliban got 57% of the vote!. 30,700 Republicans in Delaware put the effort to tune in the primaries, and decided they prefer THAT woman as their candidate for the senate coming 2020.
    OK, perhaps the other guy was ... well, I don't know. Frankly few things come to mind that could top her. But let's assume he was Saddam's advisor during the Kurdish genocide, with trips to Rwanda to advise the Hutus how to deal with the Tutsis in the mid 90s.

    Election day. The big names (Trump and Biden) have their big contest while much less interesting but quite important elections for senator take place in Delaware. Now, as far as I know you can vote R for PotUS and D for senate. Or not vote for the senate. Not to mention, Delaware was like +15% Democrats, you more or less know where the electors would go so may as well pick a decent senator.

    Expecting to see that woman get perhaps 80,000-100,000 votes (those 30,700 Zealots + some others that had no idea who is who) I found out to my astonishment that Lauren Witzke got OVER 180,000 votes!
    Putting a crazy woman that spews what you see in that video and has those political views just moved 4% of the Republicans to the Democrats. Just 4%. And some of that may have been "no-Trumpers" actually. Not people saying "No, I actually don't think LGBT people are possessed and demonic, I will vote for the other guy."

    Putting a raving lunatic there, moved the barrier by Just 4%

    What I think it happened:
    From the 186,000 people that voted for her, perhaps 50,000 people knew what she believed. The other 136,000 people probably couldn't tell their candidate for senate was or what she believed and have not spent 10 minutes to google the person they voted for. They saw the "R" and voted by party.
    It is astonishing that 37% of Delaware voted for this person. And it actually gets worse:
    If she was running in a red state, one that is usually R+10 or something... there was a VERY good chance that she would have won!
    The Republican primary people chose her and from the moment she got the R, her qualifications, opinions, stance, personality would play A MINOR role!


    What do you think folks? Am I reading things wrong here? Or the impact of a politician's actual credentials, qualifications, opinions, sanity etc is minor (Pushing perhaps a 4% to the other side in extremely bad cases) ?

    And what do you think of the political opinions of this nice person?
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Negative partisanship defines modern politics. Most people will vote for anyone just to keep the other party out of power.
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Negative partisanship defines modern politics. Most people will vote for anyone just to keep the other party out of power.
    That address nothing about her nonsensical rant. Also that is sort of the what democracy is you know. I pretty confident that yes Prodromos any party that nominees a fruit cake who thinks women voting a a bad thing is a party I will not vote for. Also you know open boarders is why all my Great Grandparents got to the US so umm a liberal immigration and refuge policy is not scary to me.
    Last edited by conon394; December 01, 2022 at 08:18 AM.
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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    Negative partisanship defines modern politics. Most people will vote for anyone just to keep the other party out of power.
    The problem is that the system supposes you vote for a local candidate based on how they will represent your local interests. (If that weren't the case, there would be no reason to have any form of voting districts.) If people did this, local candidates would drift towards the local political center, because that's where the decisive votes would be.

    When voters catch on to the fact that their elected officials are subject to party discipline, they realize they had better ignore the personal qualities of the candidates and vote for a preferred party. Not only does that yield a lot of poor quality representatives, it also means people are voting with a mindset that better fits proportional representation and come to experience the electoral system as disenfranchising. After all, without meaningful local representation, fptp just means throwing people's votes away, with only votes in a few districts likely to make the difference.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

  5. #5
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    The problem is that the system supposes you vote for a local candidate based on how they will represent your local interests. (If that weren't the case, there would be no reason to have any form of voting districts.) If people did this, local candidates would drift towards the local political center, because that's where the decisive votes would be.
    Let me address this: Yes, there is no reason to have voting districts for national elections!
    For the local interests you have the mayors and local government. If there wasn't the whole "first past the post for the district", then states that had R40/D55/Others 5 would be sending 40% of their representatives as republicans making all states count instead of a few battleground states.

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    When voters catch on to the fact that their elected officials are subject to party discipline, they realize they had better ignore the personal qualities of the candidates and vote for a preferred party. Not only does that yield a lot of poor quality representatives, it also means people are voting with a mindset that better fits proportional representation and come to experience the electoral system as disenfranchising. After all, without meaningful local representation, fptp just means throwing people's votes away, with only votes in a few districts likely to make the difference.
    Yeap

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That address nothing about her nonsensical rant.
    It is hard to say what my favorite part of her rant is. Whether it is the part that women should not vote or if they do, vote for what their husband tells them to or the deeeeply Christian view that Women shouldn't vote because when they see a homeless and suffering pregnant migrant woman with kids that has nowhere to go, they feel pity for her and want to help her. HOW DREADFUL. Or that women don't deserve the authority to choose who governs them.

    I wonder, what kind of bible is she reading about the awfulness of providing shelter to a pregnant widow in need and her kids.
    Last edited by Dismounted Feudal Knight; December 01, 2022 at 06:54 PM. Reason: double
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    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    I wonder, what kind of bible is she reading about the awfulness of providing shelter to a pregnant widow in need and her kids.
    Err she ain't reading one. She likely goes to one of those prosperity evangelical ones where the rich fits through the eye of the needle because Jesus love himself some wealth and the passages read are heavily selected and redacted.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    The flawed assumption is that voters are rational actors who consider who they vote for seriously.
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    The flawed assumption is that voters are rational actors who consider who they vote for seriously.
    The 30000 people that voted for her in the primaries certainly considered it serious, else they would not go through the trouble to vote in the primary.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The 30000 people that voted for her in the primaries certainly considered it serious, else they would not go through the trouble to vote in the primary.
    Not sure you got how I used the word seriously. But either way, perhaps 'seriously' is the wrong word. "critically' would be the better word.

    I'm not sure the majority of people vote based on self-interest, or in their own or their community or demographic's best interests. I think most people vote based on a mish-mash of ego and our personal concept of who we want to be in our societies. We metaphorically vote for our vision of the popular kids at school, or the moody rebels, or the sports jocks because we want to either be them, or be a part of their status, to bask in a little bit of their sunlight. Even if they're our bully.

    So in that sense, some vote for bad people because they want a piece of the status they have. Not literally because they agree with their principles when they are broken down. Although over time many will also take on the principles of bad people in order to better take a piece of the status those bad people have.

    In this case, it means that Witzke attracts first those who like the fact that she is causing a stir, is a loud voice in the minority and that she is really disliked by anyone centrist or 'normal'. She attracts self-titled sceptics of the mainstream. What she literally stands for is down the list, and some will change their view on topics to align themselves with the afore mentioned traits she expresses that they like. Others might genuinely hold abhorrent beliefs and jump on her bandwagon but as often as not, I think the two align themselves in the middle. So of those 30,000 voters, 10,000 might be pegging their nose because the share dislikes (the enemy of my enemy), 10,000 might just like her giving it to the man and 10,000 might genuinely agree with her wholeheartedly. Each finds a way to want to align with her.

    We all do it to some degree to match our own vanity.
    Last edited by antaeus; December 02, 2022 at 07:10 PM.
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    In this case, it means that Witzke attracts first those who like the fact that she is causing a stir, is a loud voice in the minority and that she is really disliked by anyone centrist or 'normal'. She attracts self-titled sceptics of the mainstream. What she literally stands for is down the list, and some will change their view on topics to align themselves with the afore mentioned traits she expresses that they like. Others might genuinely hold abhorrent beliefs and jump on her bandwagon but as often as not, I think the two align themselves in the middle. So of those 30,000 voters, 10,000 might be pegging their nose because the share dislikes (the enemy of my enemy), 10,000 might just like her giving it to the man and 10,000 might genuinely agree with her wholeheartedly. Each finds a way to want to align with her.

    We all do it to some degree to match our own vanity.
    So you think that 30K people preferred her from the other candidate did it for a mish-mash of reasons? I can accept that. What stuns me is the NUMBER of people that find enough reasons to vote FOR HER instead of the other Republican candidate.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So you think that 30K people preferred her from the other candidate did it for a mish-mash of reasons? I can accept that. What stuns me is the NUMBER of people that find enough reasons to vote FOR HER instead of the other Republican candidate.
    To risk Godwin's law... Hitler probably would have had favourable opinion polls in the mid-30s even if they were able to be fairly taken. Even as people's neighbours were disappearing. Putin would likely be voted into power even if elections were legitimate. Most of the people who would have approved of Hitler and voted in Putin were not sociopathic monsters.
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    To risk Godwin's law... Hitler probably would have had favourable opinion polls in the mid-30s even if they were able to be fairly taken. Even as people's neighbours were disappearing. Putin would likely be voted into power even if elections were legitimate. Most of the people who would have approved of Hitler and voted in Putin were not sociopathic monsters.
    Unfortunate, but true.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Unfortunate, but true.
    It's not true. They had 1/3 of the votes in favor. But the democratic institutions were lacking and nobody expected this takeover of power. Nobody has seen anything like this before. Ask actual historians, it's true. Power was seized and the young democracy was brutalized by all means possible.

    Eventually, as the "movement" became state order, people began to actually realize what happened.

    The core motive that drove everyone was to avoid Leninist Socialism.

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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    It's not true. They had 1/3 of the votes in favor. But the democratic institutions were lacking and nobody expected this takeover of power. Nobody has seen anything like this before. Ask actual historians, it's true. Power was seized and the young democracy was brutalized by all means possible.

    Eventually, as the "movement" became state order, people began to actually realize what happened.

    The core motive that drove everyone was to avoid Leninist Socialism.
    That's why I clearly said opinion polls in the mid 30s rather than elections in the early 30s. The point being made, in response to alhoon's surprise that people would choose to vote for an evil person, is that genuinely evil or bad governments are usually maintained by normal people. Hitler and Putin (or insert any other genuinely sociopathic leader here) don't need to scare everyone. They just need to secure a balance of fanatical supporters and ambivalent not-not-supporters.
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by swabian View Post
    It's not true. They had 1/3 of the votes in favor. But the democratic institutions were lacking and nobody expected this takeover of power.
    By mid-30s, Hitler was very popular in Germany. The economy was (at least seeming) to go well, types-of-persons people didn't like were suffering which I assure you, many Germans approved, etc. Quite importantly, Germans had food on the table again
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    This candidate should live her dream and mot vote, or participate in an electoral process that doesn't meet her standards. "Be the change you want see".

    Reminds me of a number of politicians who run on crank platforms, the electoral process itself provides free advertising.

    I wonder how many constitutional amendments she advocates winding back. I'm not a betting man but I'd say she only likes 10 of them.
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    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    I consider myself a conservative and I fail to see how any of her attitudes/opinions make sense even from the "right wing" point of view.
    And I mean they are literally counter productive.

    Let's assume I am the most cynical rationalist right winger there is.
    What do I believe my side should be doing?

    Well, the only safe way to win the culture war is the democratic way, meaning elections, not the party.
    The only democratic way to win the culture war is to out breed the other side, considering how children are politically indoctrinated by their parents.
    It shouldn't be difficult as the other side are having one or 0 children per woman and they are having them at a later age.

    In the same strand of thought I would object the criminalization of abortion as the women more likely to take that option are also more likely to vote most fervently for the Democrats because of the threat to their autonomy.
    Let's remember that the majority of abortions in the USA are being had by married women who already have children. Link

    Additionally, a natalist who has no children of her own at the age of 34 would better get married quickly and start having babies "for the cause".
    Instead she is running around in politics.
    If it was a bad idea to let women vote, how is it a good idea to let them run for office?

    About immigration, the right wing position should be to moderate it but let it continue.
    The boomer generation is retiring and they are leaving behind them a gap.
    There is already cost-push inflation due to the increased prices we all have to pay on energy and foodstuff.
    If we add labor shortages to that, we are looking at not just the first bout of stagflation since the '70s, but the possibility of a total economic implosion:
    Immigrants supply more than just labor, they are also consumers and their contribution to the total demand is a presupposition for growth.

    About Russia, I could say that Putin's values are alien to the values of a libertarian natalist.
    Russia's number one problem was not Ukraine but their own population decline.
    If only Putin had spent all that treasure in promoting births instead of war...

    Her other opinions are outright nuts, though not as actively counter productive as the ones I commented on.
    Basically, it seems to me that all of her opinions are "pick me" signals to the least sophisticated of right wing voters.

    So, just because she is saying stupid things we should not assume stupidity by default.
    It is entirely possible that she is
    "merely" being ruthlessly instrumental and in terms of political marketing she has chosen the path of least resistance.

  18. #18
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    Quote Originally Posted by paleologos View Post
    I consider myself a conservative and I fail to see how any of her attitudes/opinions make sense even from the "right wing" point of view.
    And I mean they are literally counter productive.
    Thats because you`r likely a real conservative and not one of those Conspiracy-Myth-Driven Nutjobs, that lead the the Repuplican Party on a leash.

  19. #19
    paleologos's Avatar You need burrito love!!
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    Default Re: Republican candidate Lauren Witzke.

    I really don't think the American GOP is being led anywhere, it just feels it's going nowhere.
    And I am pretty sure that "those Conspiracy-Myth-Driven Nutjobs" don't consider GOP to be "real conservatives".
    It seems they are just reacting viscerally to virtue signalling "progressives", who signal their "social virtue" by inexpensively disparaging "white maleness".

    The problem with virtue signalling is it's comparativeness:
    Your social virtue is only meaningful to the extend that it is greater than mine, otherwise it confers no "moral advantage" to you.
    So, if lambasting me demonstrates the moral virtue of progressive A, then the only way for progressive B to be "one up" on progressive A is to lambast me more.

    No wonder the embitterment of white males in the USA is getting increasingly profound.
    And it should be no surprise to anyone that it would trigger a mirror response:
    The more exotic and extreme the conspiracy theory they endorse (e.g. crisis actors), the more genuinely conservative they feel.

    While typing these lines I had to check the spelling of "embitterment" and came across Posttraumatic embitterment disorder:
    Posttraumatic embitterment disorder (PTED) is defined as a pathological reaction to a negative life event, which those affected experienced as a grave insult, humiliation, betrayal, or injustice. Prevalent emotions of PTED are embitterment, anger, fury, and hatred, especially against the triggering stressor, often accompanied by fantasies of revenge. The disorder commences immediately and without time delay at the moment of the triggering event.
    Same wiki article also reads:
    Severe reactions of embitterment can be triggered if someone’s core beliefs are being heavily violated. In psychology, core beliefs are defined as mindsets, opinions, and values, which define an individual. They function as a cognitive reference system which structures the perception of the world, of oneself, of others, of what is important or not, what is right or wrong, and what is necessary to be done, and can involve both negative and positive feelings. They are of great individual and social importance and can be handed down transgenerationally, thereby shaping entire cultures. Core beliefs are not necessarily true in view of reality, but they feel true to an individual, no matter what they consist of. Therefore, information contradicting them is commonly ignored, making them difficult to change or challenge.
    While this makes sense to me, generally, this branch of psychology leaves much to be desired.
    For starters it would serve very nicely as the basis for "white/male fragility" theory.

    But who decides what "core beliefs are not necessarily true in view of reality"?
    Who decides what reality is?
    We used to be able to trust in the scientific method but now it is part of "white male capitalistic imperialistic patriarchy" and way too "western" to be "inclusive" of "all cultures".

    People are being told they are guilty because they are white and male but they are also told that race, sex and gender are constructs of the culture.
    So why is it that individuals must be punished for something "culture" has "constructed"?
    On the other hand, if race, sex and gender are biological aspects of the individual then they are also accidents of birth the individual had no control over and yet has to be punished for.

    And now being embittered by this is also a disorder.
    Note the language:
    If left untreated, the prognosis of PTED presents as rather unfavorable, since patients find themselves trapped in a vicious circle of strong negative emotions constantly intensifying one another and eventually leading into a self-destructive downward spiral. People affected by PTED are more likely to put fantasies of revenge into action, making them a serious threat to the stressor.
    "If left untreated...are more likely to put fantasies of revenge into action, making them a serious threat to the stressor."
    And that my friends is the language of urgency.

    The irony is that all this can apply equally well to white/male "fragility" and to anyone who feel they belong to an "aggrieved", "oppressed" group.
    The terror of it is that it all depends on the political preconceptions of the psychoanalyst.
    Humanity has an experience of regimes that used psychoanalysis as an instrument of political coercion.

    So, while I do not share the conspiratorialism of the people who would vote for Lauren Witzke, I do understand how and why it has come to be and I am not too quick to lambast them.

    Last edited by paleologos; December 15, 2022 at 11:14 AM.

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