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Thread: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

  1. #41
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    How should the world react to Greece orchestrating a coup in Cyprus and attempting to ethnically cleanse Turks from the island?
    We didn't ethnically cleanse the Turks though. There were crimes, inexcusable crimes for over a decade. And yet, the Turkish Cypriots were still there.

    So, the world should react to Greece orchestrating a coup in Cyprus and attempting some ethnic intimidation and national strife the same way they did when Ukraine's Pro-Western forces orchestrated a coup in 2013 and attempted some ethnic intimidation in Crimea: Take Greece's side and punish Turkey. Or how they reacted once the Egyptian Army overthrew the democratically elected Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt: Have their leaders on TV to advise peace, have some mid-high ranks give a couple of interviews that coups are not nice and then go to business as usual.
    And I remind you that the Greeks toppled the junta that orchestrated the coup in Cyprus.

    Now, if you ask me how the world should react on Turks attempting (and managing) to ethnically cleanse Greeks from Constantinople, you would get a very different answer.


    @Nebaki: If you want to believe that during the invasion a group of Greek soldiers magically appeared in the occupied lands, stole Icons and sold them, then feel free to buddy. I find it idiotic as a stance, but you do you.

    "Well I read them too and even clicked on it and some of them are not even present anymore. " <== What do you mean? The wiki articles are there. I quoted wikipedia that despite what you claim is widely accepted as a source since it gives sources. Then you started putting up things and twisting the obvious (that Turkish soldiers pillaged, raped and killed) and I didn't even check your long post as I consider it drivel. And FYI: I also won't check them again.

    "Most of it are completly different then your accusations which you claim in your post." + "Well in that case you are wrong then most of it does not even support it or even missing the part which should support your claims." Oooor so you seem to interpret what you read. Which is taking the wrong conclusions.

    Let me reiterate just so it doesn't get missed: According to wikipedia's sources, survivors' tales and UN officials, many Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals, raping, looting and killing and Turkey should have been heavily sanctioned till they leave the island and take the settlers with them.

    "Where are those sources went all of sudden?" They are still where they were in my post. If you want a repeat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...reek_Cypriots\

    "Turkey was found guilty by the European Commission of Human Rights for displacement of persons, deprivation of liberty, ill treatment, deprivation of life and deprivation of possessions.[110][111][112] The Turkish policy of violently forcing a third of the island's Greek population from their homes in the occupied North, preventing their return and settling Turks from mainland Turkey is considered an example of ethnic cleansing.[113][114]"

    That goes to you too, @PoVG. We are not the ones that were found guilty of Ethnic Cleansing. Turkey was.


    And @Nebaki, here are the numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...16_August_1974

    "In the process, many Greek Cypriots became refugees. The number of refugees is estimated to be between 140,000 and 160,000.[107] The ceasefire line from 1974 separates the two communities on the island, and is commonly referred to as the Green Line.

    After the conflict, Cypriot representatives and the United Nations consented to the transfer of the remainder of the 51,000 Turkish Cypriots that had not left their homes in the south to settle in the north, if they wished to do so."

    Yes, before the 2nd invasion and especially after the first, we have been intimidating Turkish Cypriots to leave. But after the brutal invasion and the Turkish military butchering families the UN agreed to the transfer of the Turkish Cypriots if they wished to do so to the rich homes left behind by the Greek Cypriots when they were hunted from their homes by violent and cruel invaders.
    The Hellenic Cypriots were not given the choice when much of the Turkish army was killing, pillaging and raping.

    And @Nebaki, those are my sources. You can twist it all you want, but this is what happened. And it is in wikipedia for all to see.


    What did the greeks on the island expected? Returning to a unified cyprus and constitution which only favours greeks? Here my previously reply regarding that:
    Ah, here is something we could possibly discuss.

    A just deal would be:
    - reunification
    - expulsion of some of the settlers, especially those that showed up from Anatolia, or at least them losing their rights to vote.
    - a constitution that doesn't give seats based on national or religious identity.
    - obviously, laws about respect on religious freedoms.
    - schools teaching both some Turkish and some Greek.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 28, 2022 at 07:59 PM.
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  2. #42
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
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    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    I'm uncertain as to expulsions being just. Especially those whom may not have been born when the land they now own was taken. I'm uncertain as to whether this solves the situation, or shifts the suffering.

    I'd much rather financial compensation for lost land and integration of all who live there now. Financial compensation that is significant enough so as to cover land at present values. This has been an approach that has worked in several former British colonies, and has allowed compensated individuals to collectivise and incorporate their compensations to secure the financial standings of entire communities.
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  3. #43

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    We didn't ethnically cleanse the Turks though. There were crimes, inexcusable crimes for over a decade. And yet, the Turkish Cypriots were still there.
    Sigh...


    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'm uncertain as to expulsions being just. Especially those whom may not have been born when the land they now own was taken. I'm uncertain as to whether this solves the situation, or shifts the suffering.
    There is no real settler issue. The proportion between Northern Cypriot citizenship and Southern Cypriot citizenship did not change much since 1974. What the Greek side deceptively uses is to add in number of students, seasonal workers and army contingents from Turkey to beef up the Turkish numbers on the island. Those that chose to stay in the previous decades merely helped to keep the ethnic make up of the island stable as many Turkish Cypriots also left the island due to Greek aggression and Western support of it as well as the fact that there have been many immigration from Greece to Southern Cyprus.


    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    I'd much rather financial compensation for lost land and integration of all who live there now. Financial compensation that is significant enough so as to cover land at present values. This has been an approach that has worked in several former British colonies, and has allowed compensated individuals to collectivise and incorporate their compensations to secure the financial standings of entire communities.
    That already exists; called the Immovable Property Commission recognized by international courts:
    As of 29 April 2022, 7,111 applications have been lodged with the Commission and 1,324 of them have been concluded through friendly settlements and 34 through formal hearing. The Commission has awarded GBP 335,349,426.- to the applicants as compensation. Moreover, it has ruled for exchange and compensation in two cases, for restitution in three cases and for restitution and compensation in seven cases. In one case it has delivered a decision for restitution after the settlement of Cyprus Issue, and in one case it has ruled for partial restitution.
    It's only as effective as long as the Greek Cypriots cooperate with this commission. Such a commission does not exist for Turkish Cypriot property in Southern Cyprus.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; November 29, 2022 at 02:01 AM.
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  4. #44

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    We didn't ethnically cleanse the Turks though...
    How should something like that happen when someone prevents it?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    There were crimes, inexcusable crimes for over a decade. And yet, the Turkish Cypriots were still there.
    What remained of them was after some intervention from Turkish Nation. Is that your excuse regarding that?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So, the world should react to Greece orchestrating a coup in Cyprus and attempting some ethnic intimidation and national strife the same way they did when Ukraine's Pro-Western forces orchestrated a coup in 2013 and attempted some ethnic intimidation in Crimea: Take Greece's side and punish Turkey.
    Intimidation against who? Those Events are not even comparable and maybe you did not noticed but neither Turkey or Ukraine is in that case the aggressor.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And I remind you that the Greeks toppled the junta that orchestrated the coup in Cyprus.
    Wait what when did they happen exaclty? Didnīt you miss something out here?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 





    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Now, if you ask me how the world should react on Turks attempting (and managing) to ethnically cleanse Greeks from Constantinople, you would get a very different answer.
    There is not a Constantinople so in that case Turks cannot attempt and manage something on a fictional not existing City.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Since 29th of May 1453 the so-called "World" is reacting to it in form of a behaviour which you present us.

  5. #45
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    How should something like that happen when someone prevents it?

    What remained of them was after some intervention from Turkish Nation. Is that your excuse regarding that?
    While there were ongoing tensions, the population of Turkish Cypriots was stable for an entire decade.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Intimidation against who? Those Events are not even comparable and maybe you did not noticed but neither Turkey or Ukraine is in that case the aggressor.
    They are comparable. Greece tried a coup in Cyprus and in the meantime, was trying to intimidate Turkish nationals. Turkey intervened and using as a pretext for the evil ambitions of their government the suffering of the locals, they occupied a large part of Cyprus, killing, raping and looting. Turkey is the aggressor.

    Ukraine tried a coup in 2013 and Ukrainians were intimidating Russian nationals. Russia intervened and using as a pretext for the evil ambitions of Putin the suffering of the locals, occupied a large part of Ukraine, killing, raping and looting. Russia is the aggressor.

    Ukraine: What did the West do? Supported Ukraine and sanctioned Russia. Then sat on their chairs sipping tea for 8 years. And they would keep at it for 50 years (like they do with Cyprus), Ukraine could have even been in the EU and they would still sipping tea and saying "Russia, that's not nice. Go home!" like they do with Turkey. The 2014 Sanctions against Russia were fading. Had Putin not attacked again this year, the situation in Ukraine would be exactly like it was in 2015 for the next 50 years.

    Cyprus: What did the West do? Not supported Cyprus but said some mean things to Turkey while sitting on their chairs sipping tea for 48 years (and counting). Cyprus joined the EU with its internationally recognized borders, and EU is still sipping tea and saying "Turkey, that's not nice. Go home!".

    Sooooo... yes, the situation is more or less the same, with the exception that Russia attacked again out of stupidity. If Turkey attacks Cyrpus again, then yes, you would face the music. But Erdogan is not as delusional about the situation as Putin has been.




    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Wait what when did they happen exaclty? Didnīt you miss something out here?
    The Junta was toppled after Cyprus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    There is not a Constantinople so in that case Turks cannot attempt and manage something on a fictional not existing City.
    Hey buddy, we keep calling French as "Gauls" and they don't complain. Everyone calls the Deutch as Germans and they don't complain. We call Netherlands as Holland and they don't complain.
    Last edited by chriscase; December 01, 2022 at 05:59 PM. Reason: Let’s keep things impersonal
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  6. #46

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    @Nebaki: If you want to believe that during the invasion a group of Greek soldiers magically appeared in the occupied lands, stole Icons and sold them, then feel free to buddy. I find it idiotic as a stance, but you do you.
    Idiotic is the fact that someone believes that any crime and pillaging happened after some Turks arrived on the Island with their Peace Force and never an act of crime was done by "innocent" greeks before.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "Well I read them too and even clicked on it and some of them are not even present anymore. " <== What do you mean?
    Exactly what is posted there. I guess everyone else understood here.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I quoted wikipedia that despite what you claim is widely accepted as a source since it gives sources.
    Yes you quoted just wikipedia without even checking how wikipedia summarized those wiki-article and it is not widely accepted. Do you even know what wikipedia is? It just takes some phrases from a Source in the world wide web or can sometimes contain wrong information. This time most obviously most are not present, missing or are not even matching with the source which is it taken from.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Then you started putting up things and twisting the obvious (that Turkish soldiers pillaged, raped and killed) and I didn't even check your long post as I consider it drivel. And FYI: I also won't check them again.
    I've done nothing of that and this nothing else then accusing me of breaking the rules of twcenter. You donīt want to reply in that case then this is your problem but stop first your ugly claims against the Turkish Nation and their Soldiers. Especially if your so-called sources are not even matching with your own posts. This is what i would call a drivel.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "Most of it are completly different then your accusations which you claim in your post." + "Well in that case you are wrong then most of it does not even support it or even missing the part which should support your claims." Oooor so you seem to interpret what you read. Which is taking the wrong conclusions.
    Wrong conclusions? You are the one which is not even providing the audience here a simple source which is matching his claims. Please first maybe verify it before making again false allegations.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Let me reiterate just so it doesn't get missed: According to wikipedia's sources, survivors' tales and UN officials, many Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals, raping, looting and killing and Turkey should have been heavily sanctioned till they leave the island and take the settlers with them.
    This your original post regarding that:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
    That's why the Hellenic people run.
    My reply to your ugly claims:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    But what does that have to do with any of this:



    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Oooor so you seem to interpret what you read. Which is taking the wrong conclusions.
    Isn't this exaclty what you are doing here?



    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "Where are those sources went all of sudden?" They are still where they were in my post. If you want a repeat: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...reek_Cypriots\
    This is a link to page of a wiki-article nothing else.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "Turkey was found guilty by the European Commission of Human Rights for displacement of persons, deprivation of liberty, ill treatment, deprivation of life and deprivation of possessions.[110][111][112] The Turkish policy of violently forcing a third of the island's Greek population from their homes in the occupied North, preventing their return and settling Turks from mainland Turkey is considered an example of ethnic cleansing.[113][114]"
    Thank you for mentioning [110] itīs exaclty the same source of [117] and my previous post regarding that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post

    On [117] it looks the same outcome and seems to be not relevent or just another dropped accusations since when it came to part of a proof the greek side lacks it always:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    If you have digital copy of this Document please share it with us but before maybe check it?

    My previously reply regarding [111] [112] probably you just skipped as you donīt even check your own sources:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    So lets check [111] which is nothing else then a case from South Cyprus/greek side against Republic of Turkey:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    This nothing else then a simple case with accusations against Turkish without anything containing of proofs or outcame of the case. A Seperate Document is even missing. A Judging was not even held and it seems to be with eleven representatives Republic of Turkey already shown his good will in it.

    So we continue on [112] and the outcome is this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Do i have to remind you here that source is from http://www.law.gov.cy/law/law.nsf/ho...orm#example4/4 so nothing else then a pro-greek website.
    [113] is nothing else then this following phrase:

    "The Turkish policy of violently forcing a third of the island's Greek population from their homes in the occupied North, preventing their return and settling Turks from mainland Turkey is considered an example of ethnic cleansing."

    A little bit far-fetched claim against Turkish Nation while over a decade someone wanted to continue is dream of enosis which is of course an example of "liberation" in a civilized manner?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    This only a phrase but how it comes those are the reference which should back up those false accusation:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    One is even named "Europe's nightmare: the struggle for Kosovo." and unless you can provide us all those sources which are backing up that one simple phrase there we can neither verify it or even consider it as a source.

    [114] is only a simple summary regarding the question of reuniting cyprus from the author "Leandros Fischer is an adjunct lecturer at the Department of Social and Political Sciences of the University of Cyprus in Nicosia." which of course publishes a work which would support the interests of his employer where the outcome is only a pro-greek statement.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    If we now checking the sources of the article from author "Leandros Fischer" first one is even missing or not present anymore:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Last, but not least the only text passage which would support your so-called "source" regarding some false accusations:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    This is only a claim against Turkish Peace Force which of course lacking his own source and is not even possible to be verified. A little more difficult is to trust someone who is working for Social and Political Sciences of the University of Cyprus in Nicosia.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    That goes to you too, @PoVG. We are not the ones that were found guilty of Ethnic Cleansing. Turkey was.
    Turkey never was founded guilty. There was some false accusations aswell ugly defamation which ended up according to this document on a "Friendly settlement" between Turkey and south cyprus. Probably some greeks canīt visit their former property on the Turkish Side they got a compensation while south cyprus probably even lacks the capability to compensate anything to Turkish Side.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Their policy to the Turkish Population on the Island called "Cyprus" was never even letting them having any kind of a property. It was indeed more unethical. Another proof of that is the case APPLICATIONS Nos. 6780/74 AND 6950/75 on "CYPRUS against TURKEY" of "EUROPEAN COMISSION OF HUMAN RIGHTS" adopted on Adopted on 10 July 1976.

    The case gets opened and even debated but the side which is charged here of false accusations aswell ugly defamation is not even informed or can only take part on it after some progress is made. How should that end up in a favourable pro-greek outcame without involving the other party?
    Last edited by Nebaki; December 01, 2022 at 08:06 PM.

  7. #47
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Hmmm so, 112 is missing. That's what I take from your post. Oh well. I will still trust Wikipedia over your take on wikipedia's sources.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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  8. #48

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post

    And @Nebaki, here are the numbers: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...16_August_1974

    "In the process, many Greek Cypriots became refugees. The number of refugees is estimated to be between 140,000 and 160,000.[107] The ceasefire line from 1974 separates the two communities on the island, and is commonly referred to as the Green Line.

    After the conflict, Cypriot representatives and the United Nations consented to the transfer of the remainder of the 51,000 Turkish Cypriots that had not left their homes in the south to settle in the north, if they wished to do so."
    How it comes that greek Cypriots had the chance according to [107] which we of course cannot verify (There is not an open Source from quote of a Book) was being able to flee while being alive. So the remnants of Turkish Cypriots from South of the Island got the opportunity after all suffering to settle to North and leave their homes from greek Cypriots? How can someone even offer something on part of a Island which are out of their reach?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yes, before the 2nd invasion and especially after the first, we have been intimidating Turkish Cypriots to leave.
    Ah now when honorable Turkish Army appears you change your policy to the Turkish Cypriots from exterminating them into persuading them to leave? We are talking here about the remnants of all that suffering and cruelty which carried out by greeks. Maybe someone enlight us too what happened before the first and second wave of Turkish Peace Operation or skipping it as usual?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    But after the brutal invasion and the Turkish military butchering families the UN agreed to the transfer of the Turkish Cypriots if they wished to do so to the rich homes left behind by the Greek Cypriots when they were hunted from their homes by violent and cruel invaders.
    Which brutal invasion? Which butchering? Can you atleast provide us an same footage for a greek prison for Turkish Cypriots?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Those violent and cruel invaders must be so evil that some greek cypriots are even able to give interview in a good condition like on the Video above

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The Hellenic Cypriots were not given the choice when much of the Turkish army was killing, pillaging and raping.
    No matter how much you repeat that phrase it will be not became reality neither nor true. So the greek cypriots had no choice eh?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "In the process, many Greek Cypriots became refugees. The number of refugees is estimated to be between 140,000 and 160,000.[107] The ceasefire line from 1974 separates the two communities on the island, and is commonly referred to as the Green Line.
    How then greek cypriots became refugees at once?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And @Nebaki, those are my sources. You can twist it all you want, but this is what happened. And it is in wikipedia for all to see.
    Nobody is twisting here something except you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    ...your so-called sources are not even matching with your own posts.
    What happened? greeks tried to continue their enosis while failed by Turkish Intervention and started until now an self flagellation because they cannot continue? How dare they


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    And it is in wikipedia for all to see.
    A quote from [107] which nobody can verify until someone provides us the digital version of it. Furthermore it only refers to the numbers of so-called "refugees" of greek origin.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Nebaki; December 15, 2022 at 03:32 PM.

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