Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 48

Thread: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

  1. #21
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,015

    Default Re: Taiwan is an Independent Country - called the Republic of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    No but the greek Cypriots already left earlier even before the Turkish Army was present there. Probably was evacuated and maybe you donīt remember but it was rather a Peace Operation rather then a Invasion or didnīt hostilities end after it? Do you agree with that?
    No, the Turkish army ethnically cleansed a lot of Hellenic speaking Kypriots. I have Hellenic speaking friends whose families were evicted at gun point by Turkish soldiers and I have no reason to call them liars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    What you mean with Hellenes? greek Cypriots? Arenīt they already left earlier since the hostilities was more present then a decade? If Iīm wrong in that case please correct me.
    There are Hellenes and Hellens. The soldiers from the Hellenic Republic were no doubt there to harm ethnic Turks in Kypros, a sinful and evil mission. The Hellenic and Turkish Kypriots were stirred up against one another by other powers too, a grave and wretched situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    How do you came to that conclusion that Turkish Army made something happen rather then some certain groups failure in ruling both in greece aswell cyprus. The UK did what supported the greek cypriots in forming a division?
    Brother if you are not prepared to blame all the crimes in the world on the UK then maybe we cannot be friends .

    Black humour aside, the UK's standard modus operandi was to stir trouble in former colonies, as well as crating debt ridden regimes beholden to private interests as a form of continuing control..

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well they should return it to whom they stole it rather then make it a peaceful settlement. It was peaceful in Turkish Hands while when some others started ruling over it the totally failed. A proof of that is this Thread.
    You want it returned to the Ottman Sultanate? Not cool. Unless you are the Sultan, then I will consider it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    Well they maybe look similar in some cases but today UK is not really present in those areas beside an Island in North-Atlantic-Ocean. So we cannot really blame something on UK when someone else is going to make those mistakes.
    ...once again, yes you can. THEY STOLE THE GRAIL!

    Stepping back, if you look at the history of Kypros it is an ancient centre of civilisation, with period when cultural influence flowed to and from Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Lykia and Kilikia, and Hellas. I think the Kretan civilsation had a major artery flowing through southern Kypros for example, and the Mykenaeans and Hellenes shared their langauge and culture in Kypros too.

    That makes Kypriotes "Greek" and "Turkish" and "ur-Lykian" and so on, but they are still Kypriotes and and I venture most on the island have the genetic heritage from their mini-elephant hunting ancestors who massacred the cute mini-mega-fauna by driving them off the cliff at Akrotiri Aetokremnos.

    My old teacher David Frankel got in trouble for describing the Philia culture as a migrant group from Lykia/Kilikia, bringing bronze making and cattle herding as it looked a lot like the Turkish invasion (occupying a lot of the same area) so there is "outside blood" in places, but well stirred in by now: its weird how people back-project present events onto the past...no its not actually, people are ****ing stupid.

    I am sickened that Kypriots are murdered by interlopers based around imported ethnic and political identities.

    Under the system of international law the Turkish Kypriot state is illegal, as is the independent state of Taiwan. Turkiyye and the US have imposed and supported these states to troll China and the Hellenic Republic. I hope for a peaceful solution but the most likely outcome is local populations will be massacred as part of Great Power **** waving.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  2. #22

    Default Re: Taiwan is an Independent Country - called the Republic of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Under the system of international law the Turkish Kypriot state is illegal, as is the independent state of Taiwan. Turkiyye and the US have imposed and supported these states to troll China and the Hellenic Republic. I hope for a peaceful solution but the most likely outcome is local populations will be massacred as part of Great Power **** waving.
    The Southern Cyprus is regarded as a legal state purely because of international support it enjoyed. From a legal stand point it can easily be argued that it too is an illegal state given that it have been violating fundamentals of its constitution since 1963.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  3. #23

    Default Re: Taiwan is an Independent Country - called the Republic of China

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    No, the Turkish army ethnically cleansed a lot of Hellenic speaking Kypriots. I have Hellenic speaking friends whose families were evicted at gun point by Turkish soldiers and I have no reason to call them liars.
    Well see if you are from Australia then your friends probably are from that greek diaspora. Its a bit confusing for me especially in case of your friends. There is already a half-century gone over those events and your friends just repeating what they heard from their grandparents without really probably catching the whole story or done their own research. Your friends should first ask themselve why they are now today living in Australia and not somewhere what it is called hellenic republic. But overall those are you friends so i donīt bother much about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    There are Hellenes and Hellens. The soldiers from the Hellenic Republic were no doubt there to harm ethnic Turks in Kypros, a sinful and evil mission. The Hellenic and Turkish Kypriots were stirred up against one another by other powers too, a grave and wretched situation.
    Well if they are the Hellenes and Hellens who are the Greeks then? Is this now a religion or a ethnic group? There will be always some powers who wants to abuse you for their own benefits.

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Brother if you are not prepared to blame all the crimes in the world on the UK then maybe we cannot be friends .

    Black humour aside, the UK's standard modus operandi was to stir trouble in former colonies, as well as crating debt ridden regimes beholden to private interests as a form of continuing control..
    The Commonwealth under the rule UK has some kind his own internal policy to control his older realms. But UK already has lost any kind influence in that region so who we blame in that case?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    You want it returned to the Ottman Sultanate? Not cool. Unless you are the Sultan, then I will consider it.
    Nah during that period it was called Empire or the Sick man of Europe. Ottoman Turks took it from Venetians not from some hellenes/greeks which often refers that they had paid some blood tribut to claim it as their sovereignty.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    ...once again, yes you can. THEY STOLE THE GRAIL!
    That from Monty Phyton? Did they ever found it? I always thought it was an dummy


    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Stepping back, if you look at the history of Kypros it is an ancient centre of civilisation, with period when cultural influence flowed to and from Egypt, Palestine, Syria, Lykia and Kilikia, and Hellas. I think the Kretan civilsation had a major artery flowing through southern Kypros for example, and the Mykenaeans and Hellenes shared their langauge and culture in Kypros too.

    That makes Kypriotes "Greek" and "Turkish" and "ur-Lykian" and so on, but they are still Kypriotes and and I venture most on the island have the genetic heritage from their mini-elephant hunting ancestors who massacred the cute mini-mega-fauna by driving them off the cliff at Akrotiri Aetokremnos.

    My old teacher David Frankel got in trouble for describing the Philia culture as a migrant group from Lykia/Kilikia, bringing bronze making and cattle herding as it looked a lot like the Turkish invasion (occupying a lot of the same area) so there is "outside blood" in places, but well stirred in by now: its weird how people back-project present events onto the past...no its not actually, people are ****ing stupid.

    I am sickened that Kypriots are murdered by interlopers based around imported ethnic and political identities.


    Well im sorry but i cannot follow you in that case. There are no ancient cypriots or who you are referring left. Ancient civilisations like Rome are gone. If those Kypriots you are saying where really from those who you are talking their heirs then probably nothing like that happen or the issue would still not remain on that Island. You should ask yourself what have the modern Cypriot to do with all those ancient ones?

    In my opinion nothing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Under the system of international law the Turkish Kypriot state is illegal, as is the independent state of Taiwan. Turkiyye and the US have imposed and supported these states to troll China and the Hellenic Republic. I hope for a peaceful solution but the most likely outcome is local populations will be massacred as part of Great Power **** waving.
    Well what is that International Law? The one who is the most powerful is judging over the one who has less or no power? How is Taiwan an illegal State? as far as i know there was some kind of Civil War in China in which even Japan was present. Many parties from China agreed to continue it after Imperial Japan was defeated. Most of the area was back then controlled by Republic of China and not Communist China which was backed then by USSR. The Allied powers of World War II supported that Republic and still continued until today (except USSR).

    On the other hand Republic of Turkey was and is still today a guaranter power of that Island. When the greek side decided to take action on their own they lost that position and in some way United Kingdom remained passive while some events occured. Before you claim something illegal or not even in accordance to the so-called "International Law" ask yourself why something like that was even needed in first place:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Why this did not work as intended and even in some aspects failed? Who didnt honoured it? Would you take such a risk again?
    Last edited by Nebaki; November 23, 2022 at 05:03 PM.

  4. #24
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,034

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    I was talking with a friend recently, one that supports Ukraine vs Russia, about the situation in Israel. He also supports Israel and thinks Israel should take over the West Bank.
    To me, these situations are very similar: We have nations illegally occupying land that is not in their recognized borders and they seized that land through violence. In the case of Ukraine, Yemen and Palestine, the locals are fighting back either under organized armies or militias. In other cases of illegal occupation (Turkey in Cyprus, Israel in Gholan Heights) the violence is only sporadic. But in all cases, mentioned, the aggressor had perhaps a point but it is washed with the atrocities that followed.

    For Russia, ports are insanely important and keeping NATO nukes out of it's belly is a matter of national security. Still, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths or bombing civilian infrastructure.

    For Saudi Arabia, kicking the terrorists not under their control from their border and denying Persia's shiites another country in their back is a matter of national security and stability. Still, it doesn't excuse bombing civilians and arming terrorists aligned with them for 11 years, in a brutal invasion that has led to several times greater humanitarian cost than Ukraine's.

    For Israel, Golan Heights = water, they need them. It was foolish of the British to not give them Golan Heights. The West Bank is also home to a great many terrorists that threaten Israel's national security. Again, as with the other cases, this doesn't excuse Israel to seize houses in land that doesn't belong to it and bombing the civilians that resist.

    For Turkey, admittedly the Greek side in Cyprus (and Greeks from Greece) were violent to Turkish Cypriots. Again, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that killed tens of thousands, displaced over a hundred thousand people and continues to this day.


    In all those cases except Russia, the West sides with the aggressor even if there are calls for the illegal occupations to stop.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  5. #25

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    For Turkey, admittedly the Greek side in Cyprus (and Greeks from Greece) were violent to Turkish Cypriots. Again, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that killed tens of thousands, displaced over a hundred thousand people and continues to this day.
    Tens of thousands? The combined casualties barely make 10 thousand with large portion coming from inter-fighting of Greece's coupists and Marakios' Cypriots that have nothing to do with the Turkish intervention.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    In all those cases except Russia, the West sides with the aggressor even if there are calls for the illegal occupations to stop.
    Yes, the West sided with Greece and Southern Cyprus, the aggressors, in the Cypriot conflict. Despite the government effectively suspending the constitution that validated Cyprus as independent state they kept recognizing the purely Greek administration as a valid one. Despite Turkey acting on behalf of the guarantor agreement on Cyprus which Greece violated by using its force on the island to orchestrate a coup they put an embargo on Turkey that lasted for three years. That Hellenic force that helped with the coup? Still on the island. Heck, EU even disregarded Cyprus' own constitution when it accepted Southern Cyprus as a member.
    Last edited by PointOfViewGun; November 26, 2022 at 04:18 PM.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  6. #26
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,397

    Default Re: Taiwan is an Independent Country - called the Republic of China

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What a decent thing to call survivors of a coup attempt and ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Greece and started with an invasion of Greek forces as "lackey's of Turkey."
    Not another Turk vs Greek thread aside...

    There are interesting parallels that can be drawn here. Turkey, like Russia is the surviving husk of a relatively recent former regional colonial hegemon. And like Russia, Turkey has experienced bouts of absolutist rulership, internal turbulence and friction along the borders of many of it's former colonial possessions as it comes to terms with it's previously internal ethnic diaspora, becoming external all of a sudden.

    It's interesting to compare the constant and ongoing friction that Turkey experiences with it's former subjects, as with Russia, to say the experience of Austria once it was stripped of it's empire. Perhaps there is something to be said for the complete and utter neutering of a former colonial hegemon.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  7. #27

    Default Re: Greek-Cypriot dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...hts_violations

    "The European commission of Human Rights with 12 votes against 1, accepted evidence from the Republic of Cyprus, concerning the rapes of various Greek-Cypriot women by Turkish soldiers and the torture of many Greek-Cypriot prisoners during the invasion of the island.[117][112] The high rate of rape reportedly resulted in the temporary permission of abortion in Cyprus by the conservative Cypriot Orthodox Church. [111][118][119] According to Paul Sant Cassia, rape was used systematically to "soften" resistance and clear civilian areas through fear. "
    If you use as an "Academic" Wikipedia since you sometimes claim it on your posts (wonder which degree it should be) then you possibly know why most people are refusing to accept Wikipedia as a Source. Probably you just again skipped the part to check if some of those thrown together text passages from a Wikipedia Article made by someone and posting again this stuff out of the context.

    So lets check [111] which is nothing else then a case from South Cyprus/greek side against Republic of Turkey:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 








    This nothing else then a simple case with accusations against Turkish without anything containing of proofs or outcame of the case. A Seperate Document is even missing. A Judging was not even held and it seems to be with eleven representatives Republic of Turkey already shown his good will in it.

    So we continue on [112] and the outcome is this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Do i have to remind you here that source is from http://www.law.gov.cy/law/law.nsf/ho...orm#example4/4 so nothing else then a pro-greek website.

    On [117] it looks the same outcome and seems to be not relevent or just another dropped accusations since when it came to part of a proof the greek side lacks it always:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    If you have digital copy of this Document please share it with us but before maybe check it?

    The [118] is just from University of Minnesota Press of a feminist study?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 






    Another Source totally thrown out of his context and it seems that some south greek-cypriot parliament just passed legalized abortion to justify those ugly claims Turkish Side. Of course this nothing else then press release of a University located in Minnesota and maybe you even graduated there but from which those sources are even taken is not even mentioned. There is even a logic error maybe you find it by yourself?

    Last, but not least [119] from an Author named "Achilles C. Emilianides" (probably greek) a book named "Religion and Law in Cyprus" with various editions of it.

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    So do you have a copy atleast of that Page 179. and provide it to the audience here or should we skip that part?

    In conclusion none of your sources say something about a evidence or some torture (no matter how) of greeks by Turkish Side. It is not even proven or even a court was staged. I even donīt know what your aim here is, your post which lacks any basis and again just being thrown out his context.
    Last edited by Nebaki; November 26, 2022 at 11:02 PM.

  8. #28
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,034

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post

    Yes, the West sided with Greece and Southern Cyprus, the aggressors, in the Cypriot conflict.

    Dude, have you seen what sanctions Russia is facing over Ukraine? Have you seen the West hitting Turkey with such sanctions?
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  9. #29

    Default Re: Greek-Cypriot dispute.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...tural_heritage

    "In 1989, the government of Cyprus took an American art dealer to court for the return of four rare 6th-century Byzantine mosaics that survived an edict by the Byzantine Emperor, imposing the destruction of all images of sacred figures. [...] In October 1997, Aydın Dikmen, who had sold the mosaics, was arrested in Germany in a police raid and found to be in possession of a stash consisting of mosaics, frescoes and icons dating back to the 6th, 12th and 15th centuries, worth over $50 million. "

    "In January 2011, the British singer Boy George returned an 18th-century icon of Christ to the Church of Cyprus that he had bought without knowing the origin. The icon, which had adorned his home for 26 years, had been looted from the church of St Charalampus from the village of New Chorio, near Kythrea, in 1974."

    Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
    That's why the Hellenic people run.
    So first of why you are not posting the whole text from the wikipedia article which you have quoted?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    May we first agree to stop this behaviour or will you continue on it? On other hand i need a explanation of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "In January 2011, the British singer Boy George returned an 18th-century icon of Christ to the Church of Cyprus that he had bought without knowing the origin. The icon, which had adorned his home for 26 years, had been looted from the church of St Charalampus from the village of New Chorio, near Kythrea, in 1974."
    What has this to do anything but with Turkey or Turkish Peace Operation?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Maybe ask that guy in the first place from who he had bought it - probably someone fluent in greek

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "In 1989, the government of Cyprus took an American art dealer to court for the return of four rare 6th-century Byzantine mosaics that survived an edict by the Byzantine Emperor, imposing the destruction of all images of sacred figures. [...] In October 1997, Aydın Dikmen, who had sold the mosaics, was arrested in Germany in a police raid and found to be in possession of a stash consisting of mosaics, frescoes and icons dating back to the 6th, 12th and 15th centuries, worth over $50 million. "
    Your first phrase is from [132] or referring it as a Source:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    A direct quote from that sources last passage:

    The U.S Court of Appeals for the Seventh Circuit affirmed the decision below and also rejected Goldberg`s argument that confiscatory decrees of the "Turkish Republic of Northern Cyprus" (TRNC) divested the Church of Cyprus of its title tp the mosaics.
    In a conccuring opinion, Judge Cudahy discussed the international legal framework for the protection of the cultural heritage of foreign nations.

    I guess this is clear enough for everyone here. Secondly move on [133] which is nothing else then a BBC Article which not mentions Aydın Dikmen neither nor 1997 but this:

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    It even continues who they even blame all of this:

    "The Greek Cypriots know who they blame.Not an individual person only," insists Athanasios Papageorgiou, an expert in religious art who works for the Orthodox Church.It is the whole [Turkish] regime, and the effort they have made to eliminate the presence of the Greeks in the occupied area of Cyprus.
    "


    But what does that have to do with any of this:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
    That's why the Hellenic people run.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    Seems to be that Swimming is not so attractive anymore
    Last edited by Nebaki; November 26, 2022 at 10:57 PM.

  10. #30
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,034

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    @Nebaki, while you are arguing semantics and trying to twist words, the sources are up there.

    Anyway:
    On other hand i need a explanation of this:
    What needs to be explained? Turkish pillagers looted holy Icons and sold them to the highest bidder. Because for many of these soldiers, desecration is nothing special.
    Sure, sure, you can keep obfuscating and pretending the people that turned 55 churches to stables or Mosques and killed, raped and pillaged are not the ones that sold the icons.
    Or, you can accept that the Icons were stolen by Turkish soldiers pillaging.
    Last edited by alhoon; November 26, 2022 at 11:20 PM.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  11. #31

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    Not another Turk vs Greek thread aside...

    There are interesting parallels that can be drawn here. Turkey, like Russia is the surviving husk of a relatively recent former regional colonial hegemon. And like Russia, Turkey has experienced bouts of absolutist rulership, internal turbulence and friction along the borders of many of it's former colonial possessions as it comes to terms with it's previously internal ethnic diaspora, becoming external all of a sudden.

    It's interesting to compare the constant and ongoing friction that Turkey experiences with it's former subjects, as with Russia, to say the experience of Austria once it was stripped of it's empire. Perhaps there is something to be said for the complete and utter neutering of a former colonial hegemon.
    For starters, what you wrote there does not relate to what you quoted whatsoever. Second, Ottoman empire was not a colonial empire where it took over territories to exploit for trade and resource purposes. It was an empire that conquered land to integrate it into its system wholly.


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post

    Dude, have you seen what sanctions Russia is facing over Ukraine? Have you seen the West hitting Turkey with such sanctions?
    Yes, I didn't see them putting any sanctions on Greeks that attempted the coup and the ethnic cleansing. Heck, Nikos Sampson, the acting leader of the coup and the ethnic cleansing of Turks only spent 5 years in jail spending most of his time free in France.

    Written evidence submitted by Michael Stephen
    On 17 April 1991 US Ambassador Nelson Ledsky testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "Most of the "missing persons" disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson." On 6th November 1974 TA NEA newspaper reported the erasure of dates from the graves of Greek Cypriots killed in the five days 15—20 July, in order to blame their deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.

    On 3 March 1996 the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote: "[Greek] Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the 15th July coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still included in the list of the "missing" is the last episode of a human drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."

    Referring to the wife of a Greek Cypriot "missing person" whom he had interviewed, the Greek Cypriot journalist George Lanitis wrote[150] "The woman was used ruthlessly by the Cyprus propaganda machine to impress on world opinion the unquestionably tragic situation of the relatives of the missing persons. She was fooled. I was fooled and many other journalists were fooled and we fooled our readers. I apologise, but I acted like the rest of them, bona fide."
    Sampson was never tried for his war crimes. He was merely tried for abuse of power with little time in jail...
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  12. #32

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    What needs to be explained? Turkish pillagers looted holy Icons and sold them to the highest bidder. Because for many of these soldiers, desecration is nothing special.
    Sure, sure, you can keep obfuscating and pretending the people that turned 55 churches to stables or Mosques and killed, raped and pillaged are not the ones that sold the icons.
    Or, you can accept that the Icons were stolen by Turkish soldiers pillaging.
    Isnīt this your post?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    "In January 2011, the British singer Boy George returned an 18th-century icon of Christ to the Church of Cyprus that he had bought without knowing the origin. The icon, which had adorned his home for 26 years, had been looted from the church of St Charalampus from the village of New Chorio, near Kythrea, in 1974."

    My response in that case:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    On other hand i need a explanation of this:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 



    What has this to do anything but with Turkey or Turkish Peace Operation?
    But of course the sources are there arenīt they @alhoon? Maybe you can help us and show it before making claims like this:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    @Nebaki, while you are arguing semantics and trying to twist words, the sources are up there.
    Itīs no one else then you who are even twisting the sources which arenīt even backing your own posts. I did nothing else simple then asking you for a reliable source which are backing your accusations against the Turkish Nation and his People. All you did is mixing up some quotes from a Wikipedia article which are totally out of their context and most of their real sources not existent or even was quoted like your mixing things to back up something which turned out false.

    Let me first summarize how this even started:

    1. First we had a Thread called "Taiwan is an Independent Country - called the Republic of China" which how it comes ended in a different Topic then intended.
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    2. The user "AnthoniusII" managed to once again link Turkey or Turkish Nation again in some plot which is beyond his range:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    3. Then we got your post in that case while how it comes was not moved to this Thread:
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 




    4. Another Thread was opened and labelled "Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute" on your will.

    5. Later how it comes again the name of Thread is being changed again on your will.

    6. You lack to provide us anything but a source which would back most of your posts.

    7. This arenīt even stopping you going further but making such ugly accusations:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
    That's why the Hellenic people run.
    8. Your opening post in that case:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    While the other questions are kinda valid, the important one is:
    Why Cyprus remains divided? We're not talking about Taiwan being a rogue province here, we're talking about a military occupation that is allowed to continue. When ISIS conquered parts of Syria and Iraq, everyone went to bomb them out of there. Even talks of China threatening Taiwan cause alarm. And yet, lackeys of Turkey are allowed to have their pseudo-state in occupied Cyprus (and many Turko-cypriots want re-unification BTW) under the presence of the Turkish army.
    Truly how it did even happened that Cyprus became divided? How did Turkish Military ended up seizing ground in Cyprus? Indeed many Turks on that Island wanted re-unification but greeks rejected it. But it is again the fault of Turkish Nation arenīt it?

    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 


    Last edited by Nebaki; November 27, 2022 at 02:05 PM.

  13. #33
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,397

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    For starters, what you wrote there does not relate to what you quoted whatsoever. Second, Ottoman empire was not a colonial empire where it took over territories to exploit for trade and resource purposes. It was an empire that conquered land to integrate it into its system wholly.
    For starters... the first line of my post is expressing cynicism with your post...

    For seconds... within the context of this discussion, and the point I was making, the difference between an empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories, and a colonial empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories... is largely sematic.

    Ottoman Turkey at times controlled parts of modern Indonesia and sent ships to the Americas. They directly competed with Portugal, Spain, England and other's for control over the Indian Ocean trade routes, and for much of this time had colonies or tributary states scattered alongside those of their competitors. They were in the same game as the colonial powers they competed with.

    Although that's a forest for trees argument, which completely by basses the point I was making. That perhaps Turkey continues to have friction along it's borders for the same reason as Russia. That it is a former overlord that continues to express itself in terms of power in a way that triggers countries around it that it used to control.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  14. #34

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    For starters... the first line of my post is expressing cynicism with your post...
    Please explain the cynicism and how it relates to my post that you quoted.


    Quote Originally Posted by antaeus View Post
    For seconds... within the context of this discussion, and the point I was making, the difference between an empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories, and a colonial empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories... is largely sematic.

    Ottoman Turkey at times controlled parts of modern Indonesia and sent ships to the Americas. They directly competed with Portugal, Spain, England and other's for control over the Indian Ocean trade routes, and for much of this time had colonies or tributary states scattered alongside those of their competitors. They were in the same game as the colonial powers they competed with.

    Although that's a forest for trees argument, which completely by basses the point I was making. That perhaps Turkey continues to have friction along it's borders for the same reason as Russia. That it is a former overlord that continues to express itself in terms of power in a way that triggers countries around it that it used to control.
    Ottoman empire didn't have governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories. Ottoman empire never had colonies in or control of parts of Indonesia. Wherever you're getting these information you need to recheck them. Talking about Ottoman empire as a colonial power is like talking of it as a Christian empire. In fact, Ottoman empire not attempting at colonialism is taught as a reason for it falling behind its European counterparts.
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

  15. #35
    Praeses
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Australia
    Posts
    8,015

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Yes the Sultan was nominal Caliph (among several other claimants). Ther ottomans did plant colonies of military servants, which function like colonae under the old Roman system, in their territories, so they were a sort of colonial empire, but they were not competent in the new methods pioneered by Portugal and Spain. Supplying cannon to coreligionists in the name of theocratic hegemony does not an empire make, or at least not an Enlightenment colonial empire.

    I don't think the puppet state in Kypros is a colony per se, as masses of soldier settlers haven't appeared, it fits more into Nationalist power politics, a mix of 19th and 20th century ideas surviving into the 21st century. Turkish and Hellenic nationalists have turned it into Korea.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

  16. #36
    antaeus's Avatar Cool and normal
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Cool and normal
    Posts
    5,397

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Which still misses the point I was making.

    "Although that's a forest for trees argument, which completely by basses the point I was making. That perhaps Turkey continues to have friction along it's borders for the same reason as Russia. That it is a former overlord that continues to express itself in terms of power in a way that triggers countries around it that it used to control"


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Please explain the cynicism and how it relates to my post that you quoted..
    Because we all like to see our side being the good guys, and the other side being the bad guys, and frame our arguments thus. When in reality, our own side does bad things, and so does the others. And that these threads always end up with a Greek fan and a Turkish fan trying to out-genocide each other. While I quoted you, it refers to the thread in general, and also the posts you were quoting. The thread is about double standards. Seen?
    Last edited by antaeus; November 27, 2022 at 08:03 PM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB MARENOSTRUM

  17. #37

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Yes the Sultan was nominal Caliph (among several other claimants).
    Which other several claimants? The ones which get absorbed into Ottoman rule? How then their claim still apply?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    Ther ottomans did plant colonies of military servants, which function like colonae under the old Roman system, in their territories, so they were a sort of colonial empire, but they were not competent in the new methods pioneered by Portugal and Spain. Supplying cannon to coreligionists in the name of theocratic hegemony does not an empire make, or at least not an Enlightenment colonial empire.
    The Ottomans did not have an overpopulation that they had to throw up and they did not need land to grow their secondary needs. Why would they set sail the oceans when the world's oldest trade routes were at their hands and there was a huge Nile basin where they could grow everything from coffee to cotton?

    Suffered later an economic blow, it could not enter such a race because it did not have an industry or catched up industrialism late. For what purpose will a state without an industry seek raw materials and seek lands that it canīt exploit? It shouldn't be this hard to establish the world's simplest cause-effect relationship.

    Furthermore the understanding of administration in the Ottoman Empire is based on religion and there is no colony because the colony is not accepted religiously. This is why neither the people in the captured place were killed. To understand Islam, look at what is written in the Qur'an, not what those "Muslims" claim.
    Last edited by Nebaki; November 27, 2022 at 09:47 PM.

  18. #38
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
    Join Date
    Apr 2008
    Location
    Chania, Greece
    Posts
    24,034

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    My response in that case:
    I told you what this has to do with the Turkish military: Blasphemous soldiers pillaged these Icons and sold them to highest bidder.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    But of course the sources are there arenīt they @alhoon? Maybe you can help us and show it before making claims like this:

    Itīs no one else then you who are even twisting the sources which arenīt even backing your own posts. I did nothing else simple then asking you for a reliable source which are backing your accusations against the Turkish Nation and his People. All you did is mixing up some quotes from a Wikipedia article which are totally out of their context and most of their real sources not existent or even was quoted like your mixing things to back up something which turned out false.
    Yeah, as I said, the sources are up there. Your wrong take on them is given in your post. People can read them and see that I am right and you are wrong, without me going through a large list of things.

    Now, I will address some of your things:

    6. Yes. As you say, I provide a source that supports my posts because, you know, most sources support what I say.

    7. Again, those ugly accusations are supported by sources.

    8. The Republic remains divided because of the illegal occupation. The Greek Cypriots rejected the plan that undemocratically gave the 25% the same powers as the 75% AND didn't address the matter of the settlers Turkish forces have illegally brought to the occupied land. I.e. the Greek Cypriots rejected the plan because it was a very bad plan.
    So... yeap, it is the fault of the Turkish government. And if the West was not hypocritical (or they didn't need Turkey for its location and numbers) the west would have sanctioned the Turkish military strongly as well as the Turkish government.

    Let me be clear so there's no misunderstanding: The Turkish government should face the same sanctions that plague Russia.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
    _______________________________________________________
    Beta-tester for Darthmod Empire, the default modification for Empire Total War that does not ask for your money behind patreon.
    Developer of Causa Belli submod for Darthmod, headed by Hammeredalways and a ton of other people.
    Developer of LtC: Random maps submod for Lands to Conquer (that brings a multitude of random maps and other features).

  19. #39

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    I told you what this has to do with the Turkish military: Blasphemous soldiers pillaged these Icons and sold them to highest bidder.
    Nothing else then your claim and it is not known which soldier/citizens belong to which Military/Nation pillaged his own historical icons/pictures. Did you bought it?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yeah, as I said, the sources are up there. Your wrong take on them is given in your post. People can read them and see that I am right and you are wrong, without me going through a large list of things.
    Well I read them too and even clicked on it and some of them are not even present anymore. Most of it are completly different then your accusations which you claim in your post. Probably you noticed all spoiler which I added there extra for the audience here. People can truly see it.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Yes. As you say, I provide a source that supports my posts because, you know, most sources support what I say.
    Well in that case you are wrong then most of it does not even support it or even missing the part which should support your claims.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Again, those ugly accusations are supported by sources.
    Again maybe provide us the Source for this ugly accusation in the first hand please:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
    That's why the Hellenic people run.
    Where are those sources went all of sudden?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The Republic remains divided because of the illegal occupation.
    Funny are they now part of hellenic republic (greece) or some independent state? Nothing was there illegal occupation that is just your viewpoint. I can here only quote this post again:

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    What a decent thing to call survivors of a coup attempt and ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Greece and started with an invasion of Greek forces as "lackey's of Turkey."
    Who did what illegal attempt? But donīt have even a opinion about this:

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Western Hypocricy is, in my opinion,
    How should we define Hypocricy? Anything against greek interests?


    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    The Greek Cypriots rejected the plan that undemocratically gave the 25% the same powers as the 75% AND didn't address the matter of the settlers Turkish forces have illegally brought to the occupied land. I.e. the Greek Cypriots rejected the plan because it was a very bad plan.
    Maybe first we should start a debate what democraty really means. What did the greeks on the island expected? Returning to a unified cyprus and constitution which only favours greeks? Here my previously reply regarding that:

    Quote Originally Posted by Nebaki View Post
    There is no Republic of Cyprus, only a Puppet State which shows his presence in favour of a greek state. That so-called Republic of Cyprus lost long time ago the right to decide who should be expelled, lose his citizienship or even should have even right to exist.

    On the other hand they call that a minority has same rights equal like the majority democracy somehing you should know but how it comes ignored under this Thread.
    Did the definition of democracy has changed?

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    So... yeap, it is the fault of the Turkish government. And if the West was not hypocritical (or they didn't need Turkey for its location and numbers) the west would have sanctioned the Turkish military strongly as well as the Turkish government.
    The West already sanctioned Turkish military but it seems to not enough for you. They should go further and totally annihilate them so some byzantophiles wet dreams becames reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Let me be clear so there's no misunderstanding: The Turkish government should face the same sanctions that plague Russia.
    Does the thief subdue the landlord? Start first then with trans adriatic pipeline.
    Last edited by Nebaki; November 28, 2022 at 12:41 AM.

  20. #40

    Default Re: Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    Let me be clear so there's no misunderstanding: The Turkish government should face the same sanctions that plague Russia.
    How should the world react to Greece orchestrating a coup in Cyprus and attempting to ethnically cleanse Turks from the island?
    The Armenian Issue
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/group.php?groupid=1930

    "We're nice mainly because we're rich and comfortable."

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •