Illegal occupations and Western double standards (was Turkish-Greek-Cypriot dispute).

[alhoon]

While the other questions are kinda valid, the important one is:
Why Cyprus remains divided? We're not talking about Taiwan being a rogue province here, we're talking about a military occupation that is allowed to continue. When ISIS conquered parts of Syria and Iraq, everyone went to bomb them out of there. Even talks of China threatening Taiwan cause alarm. And yet, lackeys of Turkey are allowed to have their pseudo-state in occupied Cyprus (and many Turko-cypriots want re-unification BTW) under the presence of the Turkish army.

The answer why Taiwan gets support while Cyprus is mostly forgotten aside of a few thumbs-up every once a while is not that hard to figure:
The west doesn't really care about independence and liberty. That has been abundantly proven by the support Saudi Arabia gets.

Posts moved from here.

EDIT:
A different case of illegal occupation and Western Hypocricy is, in my opinion, Israel and West Bank as well as the Heights of Golan.


In my opinion, Israel illegally annexing the Heights of Golan is very similar with the Crimea situation: The Israelis have annexed a place with historical ties to them that the British foolishly passed to a different state but it is internationally recognized as part of another state and Israel's annexation is both violent and illegal.

Then we have Israel's inexcusable actions in Palestine with the illegal occupation of West Bank, where they Donbass-ed areas that are not theirs for 55 years, with bloody conflict popping up every few years as extremists from both sides fight.
And yet, USA hypocritically doesn't send weapons and drones to Palestinians nor they did to Assad.

[Sir Adrian]

Cyprus remains divided because Greece and Turkey are both in NATO and it's impossible to reach a solution without war as neither side will ever accept to back down.

[PointOfViewGun]

What a decent thing to call survivors of a coup attempt and ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Greece and started with an invasion of Greek forces as "lackey's of Turkey."

[Cyclops]

What a decent thing to call survivors of a coup attempt and ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Greece and started with an invasion of Greek forces as "lackey's of Turkey."

Did the Hellenic Republic invade Cyprus? Pretty sure it was a coup attempt.

As for the ethnic cleansing, didnt that happen with the Turkish involvement? The "lackeys" ruling the North Cypriot Turkish "state" survived a round of ethnic cleansing precipitated by the Turkish invasion surely, not before that.

I know the Hellenes meant the Turkish Cypriots no good but the strife thetree to my mind was a relic of British colonial
rule: Ataturk kept the peace there as elsewhere with broadminded and generous diplomacy and sober deliberation. Stupid generals and nationalists torecthe island up and they are not the exclusive property of one ethnicity.

[PointOfViewGun]

Did the Hellenic Republic invade Cyprus? Pretty sure it was a coup attempt.
As for the ethnic cleansing, didnt that happen with the Turkish involvement? The "lackeys" ruling the North Cypriot Turkish "state" survived a round of ethnic cleansing precipitated by the Turkish invasion surely, not before that.
I know the Hellenes meant the Turkish Cypriots no good but the strife thetree to my mind was a relic of British colonial rule: Ataturk kept the peace there as elsewhere with broadminded and generous diplomacy and sober deliberation. Stupid generals and nationalists torecthe island up and they are not the exclusive property of one ethnicity.

The ruler of Cyprus, Makarios, at the time, called the Greeks invaders as the coup was orchestrated by the Greek contingent from Greece on the island along with officers that were from Greece controlling the National Guard.

Makarios was right to call the coup a Greek invasion

In this case, however, the president was overthrown by a foreign country, Greece. It was not a conventional invasion, given the invading country a) had troops in Cyprus (Eldyk) and b) its officers were in charge of the National Guard over which they had complete control. Therefore, on that fateful day, Greece – using Eldyk and the National Guard – overthrew the legal government and replaced it with a puppet-government. Foreign news media and government were informed about developments in Cyprus on July 15 and viewed them as an invasion, something that implied foreign intervention, which we were denying.

So when Makarios spoke about an invasion at the Security Council on 19/7/1974, he was not saying anything new. What he said was not some kind of revelation to anyone. He said: “This was clearly an invasion from outside, together with a blatant violation of the independence and sovereignty of the Republic of Cyprus. The so-called coup was the creation of the Greek officers that make up and run the National Guard.”

The ethnic cleansing started on 1963 when Turks were forced into enclaves to protect themselves. UN called it in a report "veritable siege." The coup in 1974 presented a chaos to throttle things up and Greeks attempted to further ethnically cleanse the island from Turks. Nikos Sampson, the president appointed by the coup later on lamented:

Had Turkey not intervened, I would not only have proclaimed enosis; I would have annihilated the Turks in Cyprus.

The Turkish intervention is merely the smoke screen Greeks use to cover up a decade long struggle.

[Cyclops]

The ruler of Cyprus, Makarios, at the time, called the Greeks invaders as the coup was orchestrated by the Greek contingent from Greece on the island along with officers that were from Greece controlling the National Guard.

Makarios was right to call the coup a Greek invasion



The ethnic cleansing started on 1963 when Turks were forced into enclaves to protect themselves. UN called it in a report "veritable siege." The coup in 1974 presented a chaos to throttle things up and Greeks attempted to further ethnically cleanse the island from Turks. Nikos Sampson, the president appointed by the coup later on lamented:


The Turkish intervention is merely the smoke screen Greeks use to cover up a decade long struggle.

Very informative, I knew it was a ****-show, that's horrible and stupid of the Colonels to give Turkiyye the excuse to invade by treating Cyprus as a province to be "cleansed"-I see from a quick Google there were wannbe einsatzgruppen at work there. The UK definitely fostered the ethnic divisions but the Hellenic Right disgraced themselves as well.

[PointOfViewGun]

2. The lackey's of Turkey are not the survivors of the supposed "ethnic cleansing" but the pseudo-government supported by the Turkish army and the immigrants that Turkey brought in after they ethnic cleansed the Greeks.

Northern Cypriot government was not proclaimed by or run by the Turkish army or immigrants from Turkey. Its done by those that survived Greece's invasion of the island.

[Cyclops]

Northern Cypriot government was not proclaimed by or run by the Turkish army or immigrants from Turkey. Its done by those that survived Greece's invasion of the island.

Even I know thats a pretty unreal statement. The Turkish army cleared out the Hellenes from the north and created a cleansed zone for the unrecognised puppet regime to rule. Ethnic Turks were shamefully expelled from the south too.

The preconditions, support for and continuing existence of the puppet staye is the Turkish forces.

[PointOfViewGun]

Even I know thats a pretty unreal statement. The Turkish army cleared out the Hellenes from the north and created a cleansed zone for the unrecognised puppet regime to rule. Ethnic Turks were shamefully expelled from the south too.

The preconditions, support for and continuing existence of the puppet staye is the Turkish forces.

Not sure how what those, as crudely put as they are, make what I said unreal.

[Nebaki]

Even I know thats a pretty unreal statement.

So then Enosis or even Cretan Turks were all some unreal things for you?

The Turkish army cleared out the Hellenes from the north and created a cleansed zone for the unrecognised puppet regime to rule.

The Turkish Army did nothing of these things. When they landed most of so-called "hellenes" were already fleeing or already left long time ago when their so-called unification failed.

Ethnic Turks were shamefully expelled from the south too.

They were not just expelled from south.

The preconditions, support for and continuing existence of the puppet staye is the Turkish forces.

Funny isn´t it that it was not even the Turkish Side neither nor Turkey which refused the Annan-Plan. But it is wrong after all that happenings that some Secruity Force is there to prevent again such thing?

[Cyclops]

So then Enosis or even Cretan Turks were all some unreal things for you?

No, but I'm not an idiot. The Hellenic Kypriots didn't flee because the Turkish Army was offering them baskets of sweets and a dental plan, and the massacres were inspired and directed by outside forces, the colonels in Athens. They probably sent the murderers too. or are you arguing it wasn't an invasion?

The Turkish Army did nothing of these things. When they landed most of so-called "Hellenes" were already fleeing or already left long time ago when their so-called unification failed.

Wait there were no Hellenes? What were they? Egyptians? No wonder they evacuated from the in front to the Turkish Army that wasn't expelling them, pining for the pyramids.

They were not just expelled from south.

You're right, they were expelled according to a plan hatched by some wretched Colonels in Athens (whose mentors were likely Nazi collaborators) who benefited from divisions fostered by the UK. The union of Kypros and the Hellenic Republic was not a good plan as such. Its a shame the Turkish Army made that plan partly a reality.

Funny isn´t it that it was not even the Turkish Side neither nor Turkey which refused the Annan-Plan. But it is wrong after all that happenings that some Secruity Force is there to prevent again such thing?

Well yeah, but I agree the massacres and the Colonels plot was also wrong. The UK should have taken steps in the century they had stolen the island to make a more peaceful settlement.

Its grim to make these jokes but I am familiar with the conflict in outline because it is the same conflict the Uk fostered in India. And in Ireland. And.,.well you get the idea.

[alhoon]

Funny isn´t it that it was not even the Turkish Side neither nor Turkey which refused the Annan-Plan. But it is wrong after all that happenings that some Secruity Force is there to prevent again such thing?

Why would the Cypriots agree with such a pro-Turkish plan? It was horrendous for the Greek side, giving a minority of 15-20% (Turkish immigrants not related to Turkish Cypriots or not invited by the Republic of Cyprus should be expelled BTW or lose their citizenship) equal power to the 80-85%.

[alhoon]

The Turkish Army did nothing of these things. When they landed most of so-called "hellenes" were already fleeing or already left long time ago when their so-called unification failed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...hts_violations

"The European commission of Human Rights with 12 votes against 1, accepted evidence from the Republic of Cyprus, concerning the rapes of various Greek-Cypriot women by Turkish soldiers and the torture of many Greek-Cypriot prisoners during the invasion of the island.[117][112] The high rate of rape reportedly resulted in the temporary permission of abortion in Cyprus by the conservative Cypriot Orthodox Church. [111][118][119] According to Paul Sant Cassia, rape was used systematically to "soften" resistance and clear civilian areas through fear. "

+
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...tural_heritage

"In 1989, the government of Cyprus took an American art dealer to court for the return of four rare 6th-century Byzantine mosaics that survived an edict by the Byzantine Emperor, imposing the destruction of all images of sacred figures. [...] In October 1997, Aydın Dikmen, who had sold the mosaics, was arrested in Germany in a police raid and found to be in possession of a stash consisting of mosaics, frescoes and icons dating back to the 6th, 12th and 15th centuries, worth over $50 million. "

"In January 2011, the British singer Boy George returned an 18th-century icon of Christ to the Church of Cyprus that he had bought without knowing the origin. The icon, which had adorned his home for 26 years, had been looted from the church of St Charalampus from the village of New Chorio, near Kythrea, in 1974."

Raping, killing, pillaging. Many of the Turkish soldiers behaved worse than animals.
That's why the Hellenic people run.

They were not just expelled from south.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkis...16_August_1974
"After the conflict, Cypriot representatives and the United Nations consented to the transfer of the remainder of the 51,000 Turkish Cypriots that had not left their homes in the south to settle in the north, if they wished to do so."

No, of course not. They were transfered by decision of the UNITED NATIONS, after the invasion, if they wished so. Most did, taking the rich homes of the 150,000 Cypriots that have been forcefully uprooted from the North.

You're right, they were expelled according to a plan hatched by some wretched Colonels in Athens (whose mentors were likely Nazi collaborators) who benefited from divisions fostered by the UK. The union of Kypros and the Hellenic Republic was not a good plan as such. Its a shame the Turkish Army made that plan partly a reality.

Nope, they were transferred to homes left by the Greek Cypriots after the invasion according to a plan hatched in the United Nations.


So, let's not pretend that the colonels, bad as they were, were as close to the brutality and evil that the Turkish army showed those days. Yes, what we did was bad. But we received four times as much pain as we delivered. Because the Turkish military heads sent violent thugs and rapists mixed in great numbers with their invading force.

Bad as what our colonels did, the crimes of the Greek side pale in comparison to the atrocities the savages marching along the other, not-evil, Turkish soldiers did. We also had our savages, but they were both fewer and less cruel.

[antaeus]

What a decent thing to call survivors of a coup attempt and ethnic cleansing orchestrated by Greece and started with an invasion of Greek forces as "lackey's of Turkey."

Not another Turk vs Greek thread aside...

There are interesting parallels that can be drawn here. Turkey, like Russia is the surviving husk of a relatively recent former regional colonial hegemon. And like Russia, Turkey has experienced bouts of absolutist rulership, internal turbulence and friction along the borders of many of it's former colonial possessions as it comes to terms with it's previously internal ethnic diaspora, becoming external all of a sudden.

It's interesting to compare the constant and ongoing friction that Turkey experiences with it's former subjects, as with Russia, to say the experience of Austria once it was stripped of it's empire. Perhaps there is something to be said for the complete and utter neutering of a former colonial hegemon.

[mishkin]

While the other questions are kinda valid,,,

no, not at all. everything he has said could easily be discussed/disproved in other lengthy threads dedicated to those specific topics. Now you are discussing Cyprus, I could dismantle in a couple of paragraphs what he said about Spain, another could explain him some European history.

[alhoon]

I was talking with a friend recently, one that supports Ukraine vs Russia, about the situation in Israel. He also supports Israel and thinks Israel should take over the West Bank.
To me, these situations are very similar: We have nations illegally occupying land that is not in their recognized borders and they seized that land through violence. In the case of Ukraine, Yemen and Palestine, the locals are fighting back either under organized armies or militias. In other cases of illegal occupation (Turkey in Cyprus, Israel in Gholan Heights) the violence is only sporadic. But in all cases, mentioned, the aggressor had perhaps a point but it is washed with the atrocities that followed.

For Russia, ports are insanely important and keeping NATO nukes out of it's belly is a matter of national security. Still, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that has led to hundreds of thousands of deaths or bombing civilian infrastructure.

For Saudi Arabia, kicking the terrorists not under their control from their border and denying Persia's shiites another country in their back is a matter of national security and stability. Still, it doesn't excuse bombing civilians and arming terrorists aligned with them for 11 years, in a brutal invasion that has led to several times greater humanitarian cost than Ukraine's.

For Israel, Golan Heights = water, they need them. It was foolish of the British to not give them Golan Heights. The West Bank is also home to a great many terrorists that threaten Israel's national security. Again, as with the other cases, this doesn't excuse Israel to seize houses in land that doesn't belong to it and bombing the civilians that resist.

For Turkey, admittedly the Greek side in Cyprus (and Greeks from Greece) were violent to Turkish Cypriots. Again, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that killed tens of thousands, displaced over a hundred thousand people and continues to this day.


In all those cases except Russia, the West sides with the aggressor even if there are calls for the illegal occupations to stop.

[PointOfViewGun]

For Turkey, admittedly the Greek side in Cyprus (and Greeks from Greece) were violent to Turkish Cypriots. Again, it doesn't excuse a brutal invasion that killed tens of thousands, displaced over a hundred thousand people and continues to this day.

Tens of thousands? The combined casualties barely make 10 thousand with large portion coming from inter-fighting of Greece's coupists and Marakios' Cypriots that have nothing to do with the Turkish intervention.

In all those cases except Russia, the West sides with the aggressor even if there are calls for the illegal occupations to stop.

Yes, the West sided with Greece and Southern Cyprus, the aggressors, in the Cypriot conflict. Despite the government effectively suspending the constitution that validated Cyprus as independent state they kept recognizing the purely Greek administration as a valid one. Despite Turkey acting on behalf of the guarantor agreement on Cyprus which Greece violated by using its force on the island to orchestrate a coup they put an embargo on Turkey that lasted for three years. That Hellenic force that helped with the coup? Still on the island. Heck, EU even disregarded Cyprus' own constitution when it accepted Southern Cyprus as a member.

[alhoon]

Yes, the West sided with Greece and Southern Cyprus, the aggressors, in the Cypriot conflict.

Dude, have you seen what sanctions Russia is facing over Ukraine? Have you seen the West hitting Turkey with such sanctions?

[PointOfViewGun]

Not another Turk vs Greek thread aside...

There are interesting parallels that can be drawn here. Turkey, like Russia is the surviving husk of a relatively recent former regional colonial hegemon. And like Russia, Turkey has experienced bouts of absolutist rulership, internal turbulence and friction along the borders of many of it's former colonial possessions as it comes to terms with it's previously internal ethnic diaspora, becoming external all of a sudden.

It's interesting to compare the constant and ongoing friction that Turkey experiences with it's former subjects, as with Russia, to say the experience of Austria once it was stripped of it's empire. Perhaps there is something to be said for the complete and utter neutering of a former colonial hegemon.

For starters, what you wrote there does not relate to what you quoted whatsoever. Second, Ottoman empire was not a colonial empire where it took over territories to exploit for trade and resource purposes. It was an empire that conquered land to integrate it into its system wholly.

Dude, have you seen what sanctions Russia is facing over Ukraine? Have you seen the West hitting Turkey with such sanctions?

Yes, I didn't see them putting any sanctions on Greeks that attempted the coup and the ethnic cleansing. Heck, Nikos Sampson, the acting leader of the coup and the ethnic cleansing of Turks only spent 5 years in jail spending most of his time free in France.

Written evidence submitted by Michael Stephen

On 17 April 1991 US Ambassador Nelson Ledsky testified before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that "Most of the "missing persons" disappeared in the first days of July 1974, before the Turkish intervention on the 20th. Many killed on the Greek side were killed by Greek Cypriots in fighting between supporters of Makarios and Sampson." On 6th November 1974 TA NEA newspaper reported the erasure of dates from the graves of Greek Cypriots killed in the five days 15—20 July, in order to blame their deaths on the subsequent Turkish military action.

On 3 March 1996 the Greek Cypriot Cyprus Mail wrote: "[Greek] Cypriot governments have found it convenient to conceal the scale of atrocities during the 15th July coup in an attempt to downplay its contribution to the tragedy of the summer of 1974 and instead blame the Turkish invasion for all casualties. There can be no justification for any government that failed to investigate this sensitive humanitarian issue. The shocking admission by the Clerides government that there are people buried in Nicosia cemetery who are still included in the list of the "missing" is the last episode of a human drama which has been turned into a propaganda tool."

Referring to the wife of a Greek Cypriot "missing person" whom he had interviewed, the Greek Cypriot journalist George Lanitis wrote[150] "The woman was used ruthlessly by the Cyprus propaganda machine to impress on world opinion the unquestionably tragic situation of the relatives of the missing persons. She was fooled. I was fooled and many other journalists were fooled and we fooled our readers. I apologise, but I acted like the rest of them, bona fide."

Sampson was never tried for his war crimes. He was merely tried for abuse of power with little time in jail...

[antaeus]

For starters, what you wrote there does not relate to what you quoted whatsoever. Second, Ottoman empire was not a colonial empire where it took over territories to exploit for trade and resource purposes. It was an empire that conquered land to integrate it into its system wholly.

For starters... the first line of my post is expressing cynicism with your post...

For seconds... within the context of this discussion, and the point I was making, the difference between an empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories, and a colonial empire that is spread over multiple continents, with multiple governmental structures in place to govern far flung territories... is largely sematic.

Ottoman Turkey at times controlled parts of modern Indonesia and sent ships to the Americas. They directly competed with Portugal, Spain, England and other's for control over the Indian Ocean trade routes, and for much of this time had colonies or tributary states scattered alongside those of their competitors. They were in the same game as the colonial powers they competed with.

Although that's a forest for trees argument, which completely by basses the point I was making. That perhaps Turkey continues to have friction along it's borders for the same reason as Russia. That it is a former overlord that continues to express itself in terms of power in a way that triggers countries around it that it used to control.