David Hume's criteria for accepting stories of miracles applied to religious miracles

[conon394]

So not actually replying to my questions.

Peter writes that interpretation of the Scriptures

Rather somebody writing under his name.

Peter writes that interpretation of the Scriptures can only be seen through the work of the Holy Spirit and to whom He gives that inspiration. Therefore, all the books that are in the Bible will only become clear whenever He opens the mind of a person seeking the truth of what's written therein. Clearly you are not in that category as we find from our discussions, why? Because your heart is set against believeing in good faith what is written. I once was just as befuddled as you yet God with Grace fell on me to change my heart and my knowledge of Him. It took forty years of my life before that happened yet when I look back through my life's journey I can see now that God had protected me from myself till I reached the point when He decided to change my direction and my beliefs for which I give Him all the honour and praise I can. Clearly no matter what I say in answer to your questions will never be good enough for you but then I do have a Saviour and loving God, do you?

So if I just believe hard enough I will not notice glaring inconsistences (can't agree on when Jesus was born) and made up stuff (mass child slaughter). Won't worry about twisting grammar to make up prophesy. Nor wonder why good things are good (canonical bible) and some left out Gospel of Mary for example. No need also to ponder the made up theology of original sin, nope... But I could still get it wrong since according to you all too many Christians are no Christians at no matter how hard they believe because they are doing wrong.

He opens the mind of a person seeking the truth of what's written therein

And apparently ignoring the incorrect and fantastical. Which of course is made easy by the fact that...

what's written therein

Whomever the wrote Peter was writing to a fantastically tiny minority of that classical world. Most never ever read the word. It was told to them. Thus tricky bits umm made slaughter, date errors never really come out. Its not the folks in pews could you know look anything up aside from maybe just maybe a tiny portion of them.

and loving God, do you?

You don't as long as you keep the OT in your Bible.

I can see now that God had protected me from myself till I reached the point when He decided...

I both know of and know personally people who claim life changing and affirming epiphanies due to faith. The set is not a one to one match with just born again Christians.

[basics]

conon394,

Well, for a start I was an unbeliever wihout any faith that I was aware of, for real faith is a gift of God and the beginning of His conversion process. Now whether Peter or a scribe under dictation wrote his books doesn't matter because it is the content that is the most important thing. So, whether in word or voice it is the message that has the power of God to save not man himself. " Blessed are the feet of them that bring good news." Isaiah 52:7 and Romans 10:14-15. So the word about salvation begins with the Old Testament without which Jesus and all the writers of the New would have had nothing not only to preach but yet to see men saved from their sin. I mean how would we know that there is a Creator and our fall into sin were it not for the Old Testament?

[conon394]

conon394,

Well, for a start I was an unbeliever wihout any faith that I was aware of, for real faith is a gift of God and the beginning of His conversion process. Now whether Peter or a scribe under dictation wrote his books doesn't matter because it is the content that is the most important thing. So, whether in word or voice it is the message that has the power of God to save not man himself. " Blessed are the feet of them that bring good news." Isaiah 52:7 and Romans 10:14-15. So the word about salvation begins with the Old Testament without which Jesus and all the writers of the New would have had nothing not only to preach but yet to see men saved from their sin. I mean how would we know that there is a Creator and our fall into sin were it not for the Old Testament?

I mean how would we know that there is a Creator and our fall into sin were it not for the Old Testament?

Problem is even with your faith and 'Peter's' nominal word you still manage to believe in original sin that is not part of the words of the OT. Also the scribe argument is incredibly weak and really straining to get an literate common fisherman to be somehow be dictating in high koine Greek rhetoric style.

Similarly you are still avoiding a simple question on why you feel some texts are not special and what the special ones are full of made up stuff and internally non coherent.

edit: Also if you don't mind basics a bit of levity - what a whole day I have stunned basics into being unable to reply to me clearly my adroit arguments were too much... oh what the site looks to have down over night (my night when you usually post) oh well got to keep that Hubris in check

[basics]

conon394,

The origin of sin began when God cursed creation because Adam being persuaded by Eve, her being persuaded by the serpent, that if they ate the fruit they would not die and so from that moment on creation was changed inasmuch as death entered the world for all things. Now unlike all creation in the planet they didn't immediately die, not until Adam sired offspring which he did, after which he did die. So, that one sin compiled of disbelief and disobedience was the original sin for there was no other sin recorded before it.

Since I believe that every word in my Bible is the Word of God to us then it follows that each one is important, why? Because each word builds into a picture, a momentous panorama of how we got here and by Whom, and how we should acknowledge Him for not only creating us but by His saving Grace becoming a man so that our sin may be forgiven through His shed blood. Both Books of the Bible point us to that making them inseperable in their scope.

And finally, the site was down inasmuch as I couldn't get onto it yesterday but for reasons I know not of, here I am today. We had our Carol Service on Sunday night and the church was packed.

[Sir Adrian]

God did not curse creation. By disobeying God Adam and Even allowed Death to slip into all creation.

[basics]

Sir Adrian,

And yet in the days of Noah God saw everything as being violent, the garden being the exact opposite until Adam and Eve fell, and so He decided to start all over again yet death reigned on. Why is that? Is it not true that one day all this creation will be gone to be replaced with a place where death is no more? Then there will be no more curse of death.

[conon394]

The origin of sin began when God cursed creation because Adam being persuaded by Eve, her being persuaded by the serpent,

Nothing says he cursed creation.

that if they ate the fruit they would not die and so from that moment on creation was changed inasmuch as death entered the world for all things.

That's not how the text runs.

[basics]

conon394,

Then you had better read a Bible my friend for it says that before the fall creation lived at peace with itself and all was good. After the fall the curse of death came upon all creation and still does to this day and the chief aggressor is man himself.

[conon394]

conon394,

Then you had better read a Bible my friend for it says that before the fall creation lived at peace with itself and all was good. After the fall the curse of death came upon all creation and still does to this day and the chief aggressor is man himself.

I see not particular indication that there was no death. Please cite. There certain is not sense that everyone starts out in sin as Augustine would have you believe.

[basics]

conon394,

Of course you don't and there we have poor ole Adam walking around the beasts and no harm came to him. He gave them all their names and yet didn't have to bury one. So where did the animosity among all creation come from? It came when God declared the curse upon them meaning that death began to reign and everything found it had enemies prepared to kill it. That was the origin of sin. Psalm 51:5 and Romans 3:23 explain it.

[conon394]

and there we have poor ole Adam walking around the beasts and no harm came to him. He gave them all their names and yet didn't have to bury one. So where did the animosity among all creation come from? It came when God declared the curse upon them meaning that death began to reign and everything found it had enemies prepared to kill it.

And yet God nowhere curses all creation, he issues specific penalties for the three actors in the apple incident. Then a expulsion from Eden based on the fear of a second transgression. That Adam lived harmoniously with animals in the Garden does not imply no death. In fact if you assert god made all things has they are than there was in fact quite a bit of death since say Felis Catus was not going live long as a vegetarian. Adam was going to have bury them in a few weeks or so or be walking on hacked up rodent bones or the left behind bits cats don't eat.

That was the origin of sin. Psalm 51:5 and Romans 3:23 explain it.

Ahh Psalm 51. Right let's take that poetry literary that's the ticket. Never mind we have supposed David wrestling with the fact he seriously screwed up (pun intended) and is wallowing in remorse and self pity and trying to find forgiveness for an actual sin of free will... But seems possible to show the problems with you desired reading of this.

Ezekiel 28:15 You were blameless in your ways fromthe day you were created till wickedness was found in you. Note this is gods profit talking to a non Hebrew.

Ezekiel 18:20 The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

More waggish on taking biblical poetry literally going back to Psalm 51 than tell me what you make of Job 31:18

"but from my youth I reared them as afather would, and from my birth I guided the widow"

Really at birth? [Note translation wise you can make this from my mother's womb] or just figuratively for a long time in my life?

I no doubt Paul is quoting in a rather slight of hand way the Psalm... and Agree Romans becomes the basis for Augustine to codify the start of original sin which Calvin than turned into the doctrine you believe in. However its clearly not in Genesis.

To be fair for all you know Pelagius was the inspired one and its you are listening to false views of Augustine. After all David was righteous before the Lord before he made the choice to sin. Seeing has we don't even have the full set of Paul's letters and even the real ones show clear indications of being jammed together... without starting with Augustine's Manichaeism there is no particular reason to imagine you a born into sin absolutely.

[basics]

conon394,

So, if what is written is wrong as you are trying to assert where does sin come from and why is it that we all do it?

[conon394]

Your own free will. Obviously according to the story the potential for sin was built into the system - that does mot say you have to sin. I did not attack the text as wrong. I do believe you incorrect in asserting literal meaning to poetry and using the Psalm as a basis for your Calvinist original sin version. Nice just sort of not answer any point I raised.

Also not clear on everyone sinning since we probably are not quite thinking of the same thing. Do define what you mean.

[basics]

conon394,

Sin is the denial of God, disobedience to God and the disregard given to His Holy Name.

[conon394]

conon394,

Sin is the denial of God, disobedience to God and the disregard given to His Holy Name.

Thank just wanted to be clear. Good so then I can see how you manage the cognitive dissonance required to having a capricious god who can say you shall not kill but happily order the genocide of Jericho. In any case again thus the answer remains sin is an act of free will and a capacity according to the bible Adam had from the beginning even when he was made and described as good. Sin is not a penalty state asserted for Adam after the 'fall' nor is a state inflicted on the world in general in the OT. In reality the only conclusion if you believe the OT is that sin comes from god by allowing free will.

[basics]

conon394,

Man was given a will but it was never free.

[antaeus]

conon394,

Man was given a will but it was never free.

Out of curiosity, were octopuses given free will?

[conon394]

conon394,

Man was given a will but it was never free.

Err that is a nonsensical statement. OT makes it clear they had free will else there is no reason to punish them for their first transgression and than further to avoid a second one.


-----

@antaeus

Well must have if snakes got free so as to advocate for sin. But than again OT god is capricious and cruel so maybe he is biased against Invertebrates.

[antaeus]

@antaeus

Well must have if snakes got free so as to advocate for sin. But than again OT god is capricious and cruel so maybe he is biased against Invertebrates.

I'm thinking free will means can be judged, which in turn means can be judged for acceptance into afterlife.

[basics]

antaeus,

When God made Adam and Eve they belonged to Him and were subjected to a certain rule so otherwise they were free to do as God told them. Nonetheless being restricted by that one rule it shows that what will they had was not free. When the fall came and the curse of sin was placed on their heads from that moment they were bound to sin, still not free and that has been the state of mankind ever since. The only Person Who can save anyone from their sin is Jesus Christ.