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Thread: Why protest against tyranny?

  1. #41

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I do not need any research
    Ok I didn't expect such honesty regarding if you are interested in the topic you're talking about or not. At least you were honest I guess..

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    tyranny is about unpopular government.
    If discriminations against a religion is a popular policy and a public decision, there is nothing inherently bad about it.
    Well, hence I said "it was perfectly normal".
    But likely they were used as needed scapegoats, now that old pagan sacrifices didn't fit the bill anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Similarly, many witches were burned by Christians, and cats were killed to take the blame for black death.
    Well, witch burning was ironically done by a group of Christians who hated the Inquisition, more common in North Europe and post Reform period. Given many pagan religions required female intervention, the fear of a pagan re-rise after 30 year war led the "reformed" to go beyond the Inquisition.

    Excluding the Spanish one, the typical southern inquisition was more worried about warlocks, alchemists and what they considered heresy and distortions to the Canon (cases like the hussites or the cathars for example), also jews when it was politically and financially convenient.

    On cats being killed for blame of black death, well, while technically it came from fleas in rodent animals (rats and the such), killing cats only helped to make it longer. Most likely a scapegoat. That said, during black death period people would have more worries than killing cats, given if you contracted the plague you had 3 days to live, and it was unknown how you contracted it, but surely some insolit incidents existed, given the warped state of mind populace had.

    Ironically during Napoleonic period ("post superstition period") French Marshal Junot ordered dogs in Lisbon to be killed, due to being blamed for the diseases soldiers would catch. Given food leftovers and the such was eaten by the dogs, it would instead be left for bacteria, and the number of sick french soldiers increased. This would help in his defeat later on.
    I guess history repeats itself even when beliefs are changed.

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Rather overstated in popular imagination. And a fair amount made up out of imagination later.
    Well considering it was seen as an offense against Imperial Authority to openly refuse to worship Jupiter or openly denying any metaphysical atributes that rested on the Emperor, the Christians and Jews (among possibly others) fit the criteria.
    Also Rome due to its time had a more tolerance sense on violence than us today, given back then a society too weak to fight would be brutally erased.

    Adding that Saul persecuted and tortured Christians before becoming St. Paul, it's another hint.
    But the most interesting one is the use of secret symbology and terms that Christians used among themselves to not out each other out (like the fish symbol). Necessity is mother of invention.

    So yea there's plenty of reasons to support the view of persecuted Christians.
    Last edited by fkizz; November 24, 2022 at 05:41 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  2. #42
    mishkin's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post

    Well considering it was seen as an offense against Imperial Authority to openly refuse to worship Jupiter or openly denying any metaphysical atributes that rested on the Emperor, the Christians and Jews (among possibly others) fit the criteria.
    Also Rome due to its time had a more tolerance sense on violence than us today, given back then a society too weak to fight would be brutally erased.


    So yea there's plenty of reasons to support the view of persecuted Christians.
    Do you remember the topic of this conversation? Did the ancient Christians somehow fight against their persecution? Yes? Nope? this in relation to whether current christians should protest against tyranny (including tyranny that does not attack their religion) or not.

    It would also be worth asking (to no one in particular) why Christianity is so often associated with fascism (National Catholicism, Christofascism, most of the western ultra-conservative movements...).
    Last edited by mishkin; November 24, 2022 at 05:39 AM.

  3. #43

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Do you remember the topic of this conversation? Did the ancient Christians somehow fight against their persecution? Yes? Nope? this in relation to whether current christians should protest against tyranny (including tyranny that does not attack their religion) or not.
    Ancient Christians? We have to enter the realm of researching about the topic then.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  4. #44
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Ancient Christians? We have to enter the realm of researching about the topic then.
    Could you first answer directly to the question of whether you believe that Christianity should oppose tyrannical regimes?

  5. #45

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Could you first answer directly to the question of whether you believe that Christianity should oppose tyrannical regimes?
    I already did.
    Jesus Christ got Charisma for opposing several tyrannical factions at once regardless of torture and pain inflicted.
    What else do you need to know.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  6. #46
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    The saddest part is that all you have to offer a person living in situations of oppression are introspection and prayers. The impression that christians do not really love their neighbor is strengthened. The most you are capable of is denouncing the mistreatment received by other people in their condition of christians, looking like a sect obsessed with itself.

    Edit: Now I am thinking of christian associations promoting demonstrations against government measures regarding homosexual marriage or abortion. basics, I hope you consider them "bad christians".
    You are focusing on the body and the temporal world while Christianity focuses on the soul. You're literally blaming the airplane that it cannot travel on railroads
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  7. #47
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    You are focusing on the body and the temporal world while Christianity focuses on the soul. You're literally blaming the airplane that it cannot travel on railroads
    It would be great if everyone kept their religion as something private, something related to their own "soul", and not interfere in the affairs or moral decisions of another person, or in affairs of the state only when it tries to take progressive measures regarding abortion, what is considered a family, who can adopt etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    I already did.
    Jesus Christ got Charisma for opposing several tyrannical factions at once regardless of torture and pain inflicted.
    What else do you need to know.
    I'm going to take that as a yes, Christianity is in favor of fighting the injustices of a tyrannical government. Thanks.

    ---------------------

    Different messages from different points of view of christians/christianity, that's fine with me. Only to point out that this is perhaps due to the contradictory messages of a religion that has evolved to levels where it requires titanic mental gymnastics exercises
    Last edited by mishkin; November 24, 2022 at 06:59 AM.

  8. #48
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    Doesn't a tyrant have the right to expect that you keep out of his business and not conspire against him?

  9. #49
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mishkin,

    Doesn't a tyrant have the right to expect that you keep out of his business and not conspire against him?
    No a Tyrant implies a ruler acting above and beyond the law and formal or informal/traditinal consent of those ruled.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  10. #50
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mishkin,

    Doesn't a tyrant have the right
    to be hung upside down. nothing else.

  11. #51

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Different messages from different points of view of christians/christianity, that's fine with me. Only to point out that this is perhaps due to the contradictory messages of a religion that has evolved to levels where it requires titanic mental gymnastics exercises
    Because, interpretions of the Bible have been politics-sponsored according to the convenience, leading to an intentional distorted message even if the original source is intact; and most people don't bother learning much more than hearsay.

    This distortion of messages, on a political mass manipulation point of view, is considered a sucessfully working system. Ideological rethoric is in this too. Now consider all the interests at play..

    I could wager that we humans can complicate things so much that some of our intellectuals would write a 300+ pages book just to prove that 1+1=2.
    Last edited by fkizz; November 25, 2022 at 11:16 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #52
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    even if the original source is intact; and most people don't bother learning much more than hearsay.
    Only a couple of messages (those known by hearsay by anyone raised in a christian society) continually contradicted both by the church and the majority of its followers remain intact (love for one's neighbor, compassion, humility...).

    I also agree with the rest of what you say.

  13. #53
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    To love your neighbour as yourself you quote but who is your neighbour? To be humble and compassionate is not to meddle in other people's business. Both Peter and Paul write of these things as being not only the teachings of Jesus Christ but for the wellbeing of people who are now born again of the Spirit of God.

  14. #54
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    "other people's business" like the state authority assassinating political opponents? Shouldn't we get involved in these matters?

    basics, thank god I don't have the time or inclination for a dissertation here about the relationship between christianity and fascism and about how christianity has coexisted with fascist regimes.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 26, 2022 at 03:09 AM.

  15. #55
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    "other people's business" like the state authority assassinating political opponents? Shouldn't we get involved in these matters?

    basics, thank god I don't have the time or inclination for a dissertation here about the relationship between christianity and fascism and about how christianity has coexisted with fascist regimes.
    mishkin,

    And what christian systems collaborate with Fascist regimes?

  16. #56
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    The evangelical church in the united states supports the figure of donald trump. Most of europe's far-right/ultra-conservative political parties also advocate a christian monotheistic europe, and are consequently supported by local christian institutions. In the very recent past the corresponding churches have worked with the spanish, portuguese and latin american (argentina, chile) fascist dictatorships.

    Could you answer this?

    "other people's business" like the state authority assassinating political opponents? Shouldn't we get involved in these matters?

  17. #57
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    The evangelical church in the united states supports the figure of donald trump. Most of europe's far-right/ultra-conservative political parties also advocate a christian monotheistic europe, and are consequently supported by local christian institutions. In the very recent past the corresponding churches have worked with the spanish, portuguese and latin american (argentina, chile) fascist dictatorships.

    Could you answer this?
    mishkin,

    Donald Trump was not a tyrant and most of Europe is Roman Catholic which could be seen as tyrannical yet strictly speaking on Scripture grounds is not Christian at all.

  18. #58
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Of course. the only true christians are you and five colleagues.

  19. #59
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Roman Catholic which could be seen as tyrannical yet strictly speaking on Scripture grounds is not Christian at all.
    Of course they would replay the same about born again evangelical Protestantism

    @Mishkin

    Ahh you missed a chance for a No true Scotsman reference
    Last edited by conon394; November 28, 2022 at 06:08 AM.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  20. #60
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Of course. the only true christians are you and five colleagues.
    mishkin,

    Jesus said, " A man must be born again of the Spirit of God if he is to enter heaven." In other words no-one gets in without God getting him there and from what we read, few get to enter, why? Because few are covered by the grace of God wherein He reveals Jesus to them bringing about a broken and contrite heart which begins the regenerating work of God in them. So, who are my five colleagues?

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