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Thread: Why protest against tyranny?

  1. #21
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    To give you a more serious answer, if you think what would Jesus do, well he rebelled against a Tyrannical system so hard they had to Crucify him and make his teachings forbbiden. The difference was that he didn't resort directly to violence, but went via more subtle means.
    I understand what you say, but it contradicts "My kingdom is not of this world", one of his most popular phrases, and if I'm not mistaken it refers to the fact that he did not want to interfere in imperial/government affairs. Regarding the violence that he was capable of exerting, I also remember that when he expelled the merchants from the temple he was visibly angry. Mixed messages, nothing new. What I refuse to believe is that a christian person in our days preaches that in the face of injustice or tyranny one can only humbly bow their heads.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    Jesus also said, " Give to Caesar what is Caesar's," which one can assume means that where He lived and worked belonged to Caesar and was subject to him and his laws. So no, He didn't want to interfere in the affairs of governments, rather the affairs of men and women bound in sin. As for His anger at the goings on at the Temple it was no wonder if you think about it. This was the building in which God had instituted as His abode here on earth, where the Jews could come to worship Him but they had turned it into a market place for their own needs or ambition. Did He strike them down dead? No, He didn't but He could have. All He did was to show them up for what they were and that only added to their desire to kill Him.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Give to Caesar what is Caesar's
    But that is quite a general statement. It does not say bow to tyranny. And Romans and other classical polities had a general ideal of a fair social contract in government. Paying you tax as dictated is one thing. But say accepting a corrupt administration or a cruel one not so much.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    basics is asking all of us to be sheep, just like Jesus. Except we can't resurrect if we're nailed to a cross.

    But it's probably reasonable, after all Jesus asks all of us to submit to God. Why mind a different supreme authority to bow to?

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    There was another Jesus mentioned in Josephus, who preached suspicious sounding stuff about a voice against the Temple which the Sanhedrin did not like, not one bit. However when questioned by the Romans his simple statement included nothing about disobeying Rome. He was released with little more than a flogging.

    I am persuaded the reason the Romans executed Jesus was his rumoured messiahship, with implied independence for Israel.

    Jesus of Nazareth mentions swords at the Last Supper and a couple of other times in various Gospels. It may be the pre-Easter Jesus was moving toward an revolutionary end game that's been mostly excised in the Gospels. Certainly the crowd putting cloaks and branches (retconned as palm branches by the Hellenistic minded John) under his donkey was a very dangerous moment: being hailed as a saviour and given tokens of royal acclamation in a city with independence movements swirling ticked the boxes and, once he could be quietly cut from the herd (with the cooperation of the priestshood who administered the city for Rome) he was killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Morticia Iunia Bruti View Post
    I was not the most attentive girl in religion, but i think you mean Hiob/Job.

    Lot is this one:



    But i concede God is no Gandhi.
    Quite right, thank you for the correction. I'll be salty about this for a while because I made a poor job of it, but it could have been a lot worse.
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  6. #26
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Until the day when Jesus Christ returns the world as a whole will carry on as it has done from the fall of man. Corrupt regimes will carry on as if nothing is going to destroy them and graves will be filled with protestors having failed to change anything. Oh they may not all be tyrannies as we think of them but for sure corruption will be deeply embedded in their systems because power does corrupt. Look at our so-called democracies and show me one that does not have corrupt politicians in it grasping for power sometimes at any cost. I mean that in this country as in others we are all supposed to be equal under the law yet we know from experience that is not the case. No my friends until that day Jesus Christ cleans up the mess we have made equality will remain no more than a dream.

  7. #27
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    so it would be indifferent to you to live in a society like that of, let's say, north korea, or in the medieval france, because after all all the social advances in society or in our political systems are irrelevant compared to the return of our lord jesus christ. The good old "life is a valley of tears, resign yourself and wait for death". cool.

  8. #28

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    What I refuse to believe is that a christian person in our days preaches that in the face of injustice or tyranny one can only humbly bow their heads.
    Well given how much Christianity got mixed up in game of power, it's more or less inevitable that people seeking power will play pretend with Jesus points just to gain a better position, which easily leads to corrusion of original teachings. So yes, gotta agree many "Christians" were just so for social/political convenience, and today too.

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Regarding the violence that he was capable of exerting, I also remember that when he expelled the merchants from the temple he was visibly angry. Mixed messages, nothing new.
    That was because the Temple for prayer and spirituality was being used openly to collect taxes and haggling. Basically He snapped when He saw in front of him an organized group of people literally using the Temple's infrastructure to get more profitable deals for themselves via implied religious authority.


    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I understand what you say, but it contradicts "My kingdom is not of this world", one of his most popular phrases, and if I'm not mistaken it refers to the fact that he did not want to interfere in imperial/government affairs.
    Well, back then Emperors and Kings were implied to have some sort of personal influence in clergy affairs and rituals to appease to the Gods.
    By saying that he was, ironically enough, separating the political power from God related affairs (spirituality/religion), which was an offense against the implied royal/imperial authority of his time, and such logic of "Ceasar to what is Caesar's, God to what is God's" became considered a Forbbiden Doctrine by the authorities, and a possible way for one to get arrested or worse.
    Last edited by fkizz; November 20, 2022 at 09:22 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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  9. #29
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    so it would be indifferent to you to live in a society like that of, let's say, north korea, or in the medieval france, because after all all the social advances in society or in our political systems are irrelevant compared to the return of our lord jesus christ. The good old "life is a valley of tears, resign yourself and wait for death". cool.
    mishkin,

    Living in North Korea as a Christian would be no different to living in the Middle East or Italy under Nero and others. Christians have been a target people since the Birth of Christianity and still are so there's nothing new about that. Suffering for the Word of God is what a Christian expects whether it be ridiculed or even death and it goes on even in this socalled advanced civilization you imagine. The saddest part is that it is going to get a lot worse.

  10. #30
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    The saddest part is that all you have to offer a person living in situations of oppression are introspection and prayers. The impression that christians do not really love their neighbor is strengthened. The most you are capable of is denouncing the mistreatment received by other people in their condition of christians, looking like a sect obsessed with itself.

    Edit: Now I am thinking of christian associations promoting demonstrations against government measures regarding homosexual marriage or abortion. basics, I hope you consider them "bad christians".
    Last edited by mishkin; November 21, 2022 at 03:59 AM.

  11. #31

    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    The saddest part is that all you have to offer a person living in situations of oppression are introspection and prayers. The impression that christians do not really love their neighbor is strengthened. The most you are capable of is denouncing the mistreatment received by other people in their condition of christians, looking like a sect obsessed with itself.

    Edit: Now I am thinking of christian associations promoting demonstrations against government measures regarding homosexual marriage or abortion. basics, I hope you consider them "bad christians".

    Back in Rome, it was perfectly normal to kill groups of people on the basis that they were Christians, or to send them as cannon fodder to animals in the Coliseum.

    The thing is today, 2000 years after, persecution of Christians on a global level continues.

    https://research.lifeway.com/2022/01...ution-in-2021/

    You should do more research before such conclusions, assuming you care about the topic.
    Last edited by fkizz; November 21, 2022 at 05:10 AM.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

    -George Orwell

  12. #32
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    I do not need any research, I am seeing here with my own eyes how the protest or denunciation of the situation in which Christians live is ok, but the denouncement or protest of the situation (infinitely worse) in which other groups live is rejected. Zero empathy with anyone who is not a "good christian" .

    Going back to what is strictly the topic, the Christian position: protest against tyranny and injustice only if it affects us because of our condition as christians.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    Christianity, that is them born again of the Holy Spirit of God, are a mixed breed of sinners whose sin was cleansed by the blood of Jesus Christ at the cross, so in all likelihood some were of the factions you mentioned and also mentioned in the Bible. Every Sunday I hear prayers for all types of people to be saved from their sin and so yes, we dislike the sin yet the sinner no. We like them enough to pray for them, why? Because some of us were just like them in our own sin. So, of course we oppose what is sin yet continue to pray for their salvation.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    "We live in a tyrannical regime, let us pray for the souls of our torturers". for the record that I can come to understand what could be (?) your position. but it's not human at all to see oppressed people around you and offer them nothing but spiritual comfort (assuming they share your spirituality, otherwise they're screwed; loving your neighbor seems to refer exclusively to your fellow believer).
    Last edited by mishkin; November 22, 2022 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    "We live in a tyrannical regime, let us pray for the souls of our torturers". for the record that I can come to understand what could be (?) your position. but it's not human at all to see oppressed people around you and offer them nothing but spiritual comfort (assuming they share your spirituality, otherwise they're screwed; loving your neighbor seems to refer exclusively to your fellow believer).
    mishkin,

    No my friend, to love your neighbour as yourself is applicable to whatever that neighbour believes. For example the organisation called International Justice is a Christian group that fights in many countries for people especially children who are being exploited both manually and sexually and do it all in the name of Jesus Christ, being successful in many cases. Our church has adopted a young Indian lass making sure she is safe and being properly educated. We also support many teams working in Africa where the Islamic threat is present.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    the Islamic threat
    your post emanate poison, this is simply the last sample. Your vision of Christianity is abhorrent. You judge and despise everything that does not conform to your vision of the world, a world that you have the fanatical certainty that must be in the image and likeness of your particular beliefs. Just like ISIS. Most social or charitable works that are attached to Christianity do so with propaganda and proselytizing purposes; "people, look how good we are, we are taking care of this poor wretch whom we will turn into a good Christian of course".

    Radical christians* don't love their neighbor, they don't even respect them if they don't share their beliefs.

    Radical christians would never raise their voice to denounce the tyranny or injustice of a country unless said injustices or tyranny affected their very narrow vision of the world.

    Radical christians have always been silent or against the social struggles because they have always been in disagreement with them. And don't talk to me about Jesus Christ now, what radical christians promulgate lacks all the empathy that is assumed for him.

    *they know who they are. you're a christian but not one of them? cheers
    Last edited by mishkin; November 23, 2022 at 03:40 AM.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by fkizz View Post
    Back in Rome, it was perfectly normal to kill groups of people on the basis that they were Christians, or to send them as cannon fodder to animals in the Coliseum.
    tyranny is about unpopular government.

    If discriminations against a religion is a popular policy and a public decision, there is nothing inherently bad about it.

    Similarly, many witches were burned by Christians, and cats were killed to take the blame for black death.

  18. #38
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Back in Rome, it was perfectly normal to kill groups of people on the basis that they were Christians, or to send them as cannon fodder to animals in the Coliseum.
    Rather overstated in popular imagination. And a fair amount made up out of imagination later.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #39
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    your post emanate poison, this is simply the last sample. Your vision of Christianity is abhorrent. You judge and despise everything that does not conform to your vision of the world, a world that you have the fanatical certainty that must be in the image and likeness of your particular beliefs. Just like ISIS. Most social or charitable works that are attached to Christianity do so with propaganda and proselytizing purposes; "people, look how good we are, we are taking care of this poor wretch whom we will turn into a good Christian of course".

    Radical christians* don't love their neighbor, they don't even respect them if they don't share their beliefs.

    Radical christians would never raise their voice to denounce the tyranny or injustice of a country unless said injustices or tyranny affected their very narrow vision of the world.

    Radical christians have always been silent or against the social struggles because they have always been in disagreement with them. And don't talk to me about Jesus Christ now, what radical christians promulgate lacks all the empathy that is assumed for him.

    *they know who they are. you're a christian but not one of them? cheers
    mishkin,

    For a start I am not radical just a poor sinner saved by the blood of Jesus Christ our Creator. His last message to His disciples was to go out into all the world and preach the Good News, the Gospel, which is about Him and His saving Grace and so in each generation of saved ones, they continue to do that. The reason we do that is because we who are born again of the Spirit of God know what we once were in relation to God but yet are now part of His family. So, my friend, if what I write offends you note that it is not me that hates you rather you that hates me.

  20. #40
    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    You are only interested in spreading the message of your religion, you only get involved for the greater glory of your religion. I know. You serve your religion, not your fellow human beings

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