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Thread: Why protest against tyranny?

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    AqD's Avatar 。◕‿◕。
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    Icon5 Why protest against tyranny?

    Or, why do we expect people under such situations to protest at all?

    A protest means dialogue, to continue obeying illegal laws and suffering and expecting a tyranny changing itself.

    Effectiveness aside, why should people even consider a peaceful change in such a situation? How can we expect people living under oppression to choose dialogue? After all our own democracy didn't come free and bloodless.

    A tyranny has no legitimacy, no reason to exist. It is, in a word, wrong. And since it's wrong, shouldn't people do everything they can to eradicate it? i.e. French revolution style, terminating everyone responsible for justice, whether it's necessary to change the government or not.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    AqD,

    If mankind followed God's Ten Commandments there wouldn't be any tyranny but alas, as we know from history, that has not been the case. Man has tried just about every other method and so far all have failed.

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    very interesting matter in my opinion, the contribution of people familiar with modern history and dictatorial regimes in the last century would be appreciated.

    It is clear that an authoritarian regime only relinquishes power when forced to do so, but it is very difficult to control the violence necessary to overthrow an authoritarian regime; they always monopolize/control violence. it's "their thing".

    What alternative is there to violence? Unfortunately, protests, wearing down the regime, making all the elements of a society (businessmen, banks, civil servants...) who allow said regime to prevail, come to their senses. and this can take years or even decades

    I think we also should ask ourselves when the subjects of a regime can consider it authoritarian (or excessively authoritarian). Most North Koreans probably know they live in a dictatorial regime, a tyranny they would gladly get rid of. Most chinese too, maybe.... For others, the authoritarianism of Western capitalist societies is also brutal. I can assure you that a large part of the Spanish population lived through forty years of dictatorship perfectly content with the regime. What do you do with those people if not "enlighten them"? kill them one by one? make them suffer more injustice? it's very ### complicated. We could also talk in depth about terrorism. justifiable sometimes? when? is it ok to kill a soldier, or just generals? Really ### complicated

    PS: I challenge anyone to try to convince an average Cuban (not an exile) that he should take up arms to overthrow the regime. (probably first thing they will tell you, very politely, is to mind your own business).
    Last edited by mishkin; November 12, 2022 at 05:28 AM.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Another way to approach the question is to ask "why are tyrants afraid of protests?" IMHO the answer is fairly straightforward. Tyrannies use violence and fear to secure their position, and that requires the cooperation of a lot of people: the government, the army, law enforcement, judiciary. A tyranny is held together by a mix of loyalty and dependency. Everyone in the hierarchy has to decide where their loyalty lies. As long as there are no shows of discontent, anyone with misgivings will have to assume they are more or less alone and that disloyalty is all pain and no gain. Protests can give courage to those within the power structure to become disloyal. Sometimes it sets off a chain reaction, when tyrannical regimes turn out to be much more fragile than was thought possible. Evidently, the role of the army is often crucial in this.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Another way to approach the question is to ask "why are tyrants afraid of protests?" IMHO the answer is fairly straightforward. Tyrannies use violence and fear to secure their position, and that requires the cooperation of a lot of people: the government, the army, law enforcement, judiciary. A tyranny is held together by a mix of loyalty and dependency. Everyone in the hierarchy has to decide where their loyalty lies. As long as there are no shows of discontent, anyone with misgivings will have to assume they are more or less alone and that disloyalty is all pain and no gain. Protests can give courage to those within the power structure to become disloyal. Sometimes it sets off a chain reaction, when tyrannical regimes turn out to be much more fragile than was thought possible. Evidently, the role of the army is often crucial in this.
    Muizer,

    That just about sums up what a tyrant really is, a person afraid of his or her own shadow, who relies on bullying to survive. Isn't there a bit of a bully in us all?

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Isn't there a bit of a bully in us all?
    as always there are different degrees, and "moral" kilometers of distance between the bully who doesn't want his girlfriend to go out in a miniskirt and those who participate in a regime that silences, tortures and executes its citizens to maintain the state of things.

    It is one thing that as individuals we have defects, and another that we compromise with the institutionalization of said defects.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 14, 2022 at 07:56 AM.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Or, why do we expect people under such situations to protest at all?

    A protest means dialogue, to continue obeying illegal laws and suffering and expecting a tyranny changing itself.

    Effectiveness aside, why should people even consider a peaceful change in such a situation? How can we expect people living under oppression to choose dialogue? After all our own democracy didn't come free and bloodless.

    A tyranny has no legitimacy, no reason to exist. It is, in a word, wrong. And since it's wrong, shouldn't people do everything they can to eradicate it? i.e. French revolution style, terminating everyone responsible for justice, whether it's necessary to change the government or not.

    The Romanian revolution of 1989 started with a protest. The power of a tyranny stands in making people think that they're alone in their opposition and easily crushed. Protests eradicate that power.
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    So, what if you found yourself in the position of such power, what would you do to manintain it?

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mishkin,

    So, what if you found yourself in the position of such power, what would you do to manintain it?
    read the bible a lot?

    Edit: we are all in a position to abuse someone, most of the time we are aware that doing so is morally wrong. If your question is, what would you do if one morning you woke up and were the dictator of a country, I would do the least detrimental to myself, lead a transition to democracy. It takes a very specific mix of psychopathy/sadism and megalomania to have a people forcibly subjugated to what you consider to be right.

    in my country a person was in that position, at least in theory. King Juan Carlos was designated heir by the dictator Franco. He rejected that power, in my opinion, not out of bonhomie, but because he was aware that a dictatorship could not be maintained for much longer (40 years are enough even for the most backward peoples). This man is frequently praised for it. Being praised for giving way to democracy (maintaining a privileged position) instead of continuing the repression of a people, signing death sentences etc. It seems to me one of the most absurd political/moral positions I have ever heard; praising someone for not wanting to be a dictator.
    Last edited by mishkin; November 15, 2022 at 04:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    Another way to approach the question is to ask "why are tyrants afraid of protests?" IMHO the answer is fairly straightforward. Tyrannies use violence and fear to secure their position, and that requires the cooperation of a lot of people: the government, the army, law enforcement, judiciary. A tyranny is held together by a mix of loyalty and dependency. Everyone in the hierarchy has to decide where their loyalty lies. As long as there are no shows of discontent, anyone with misgivings will have to assume they are more or less alone and that disloyalty is all pain and no gain. Protests can give courage to those within the power structure to become disloyal. Sometimes it sets off a chain reaction, when tyrannical regimes turn out to be much more fragile than was thought possible. Evidently, the role of the army is often crucial in this.
    But your point is about efficiency, not about what is right.

    If a government is not democratically elected and not popular, how is it any different from criminal gangs or foreign invaders wanting to rob everyone or enforce their way of life?


    If it's not different, then:

    1. We do not protest against robbers when they come to our home. They're to be shot on sight if a gun is available.

    2. Every members in that organization is thus a criminal and held responsible for the collective crime. A policeman would be an executioner, a judge or councilman would be a minor boss. None of them deserves mercy.

    3. Since in such a situation, there is no real government protecting people, people of all ages should be encouraged to take up arms and fight back.

    4. And a peaceful solution would not be promoted by foreign governments. After all, nobody would ask a woman being raped or a man being stabbed to talk with the perpetrator.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    Or, why do we expect people under such situations to protest at all?

    A protest means dialogue, to continue obeying illegal laws and suffering and expecting a tyranny changing itself.

    Effectiveness aside, why should people even consider a peaceful change in such a situation? How can we expect people living under oppression to choose dialogue? After all our own democracy didn't come free and bloodless.

    A tyranny has no legitimacy, no reason to exist. It is, in a word, wrong. And since it's wrong, shouldn't people do everything they can to eradicate it? i.e. French revolution style, terminating everyone responsible for justice, whether it's necessary to change the government or not.
    Tyranny is illegal rule: typically it is based on popular support and violence.

    The Bible is often misused by tyrants claiming a higher authority than the state for their violent illegal rule.

    Demonstrations undermine tyranny because they are popular demonstrations and people in large numbers can resist violence better than individuals usually.

    I think massacres are usually counterproductive as you create an echo chamber of hate and revenge. The example of Northern Ireland where some truly blood soaked terrorists and some utterly unhinged bigots were able to sit down together suggests the South African model of truth and reconciliation works sometimes.

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    AqD,

    If mankind followed God's Ten Commandments there wouldn't be any tyranny but alas, as we know from history, that has not been the case. Man has tried just about every other method and so far all have failed.
    God is unbound by any law and as such is arguably the ultimate tyrant. Further God freely uses blasphemous violence ("thou shalt not kill" is God's law he breaks endlessly) drowning the entire world because of the sins of some humans, and massacring Lots family twice on a dare from Satan. He impregnates Mary without her father's permission, and disregards Joseph's engagement to her. He elects as Kings David and Solomon, those polytheist sexually immoral and vengeful men, and when Cain murders Abel he is given a holiday in Nod, and a mark of safe conduct.

    A tyrant God.
    Jatte lambastes Calico Rat

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    massacring Lots family twice on a dare from Satan
    I was not the most attentive girl in religion, but i think you mean Hiob/Job.

    Lot is this one:



    But i concede God is no Gandhi.
    Did you ever think for a second
    I'm only human too.
    You have no perception of all the struggles that I have been through.
    Listening to the nothingness I'm hearing while I watch your lips move.
    If you really knew me, you'd think twice about creating my truth.

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    One has to ask why all these things mentioned actually happened and the answer is that God must punish sin and so He did which comes down to who were the sinners? Man turned away from God to sin and so were rightly punished but the good news is that God has made provision for any person to have that sin removed from off them if but only they would seek to return to Him by being truly repentent. Oh yes, one can call Him all the names under the sun but in the end every person ever born will have to give a personal account of their lives to Him and Him alone. Don't be too disappointed when that happens.

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    @basics, from a christian perspective, what should a person living under a tyrannical regime do?

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    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by AqD View Post
    But your point is about efficiency, not about what is right.

    If a government is not democratically elected and not popular, how is it any different from criminal gangs or foreign invaders wanting to rob everyone or enforce their way of life?


    If it's not different, then:

    1. We do not protest against robbers when they come to our home. They're to be shot on sight if a gun is available.

    2. Every members in that organization is thus a criminal and held responsible for the collective crime. A policeman would be an executioner, a judge or councilman would be a minor boss. None of them deserves mercy.

    3. Since in such a situation, there is no real government protecting people, people of all ages should be encouraged to take up arms and fight back.

    4. And a peaceful solution would not be promoted by foreign governments. After all, nobody would ask a woman being raped or a man being stabbed to talk with the perpetrator.
    Yes, that is an interesting proposition. I would say that history and the current state of affairs shows that almost all societies are vulnerable to the formation of hierarchies of power. I can only conclude that in practice this is the result of individuals making cost/gain analysis on how to react to people who seek power and that often the result is that people see gain in casting their lot in with one leader or another. This also happens within democracies btw (According to Heathen Hammer, to the point that the democratic choice is completely fictitious, and in some democracies there's a good argument to make for that).

    So maybe it is just part of the human condition to choose personal gain/loss ahead of collective gain/loss. Because the latter is what would be required for people to categorically reject people trying to exert power over them.

    Just have a look at the US in recent years. It pretty much is founded on the principle that the people are entitled to rise up against Tyranny. With its intense focus on personal freedom, small government and right to carry arms, if any group of citizens anywhere should be able to collectively stand against tyranny it would be them. Yet what happens? It is the very people who believe this the most who flock to a great leader! Massive, massive fail .....
    Last edited by Muizer; November 16, 2022 at 05:41 AM.
    "Lay these words to heart, Lucilius, that you may scorn the pleasure which comes from the applause of the majority. Many men praise you; but have you any reason for being pleased with yourself, if you are a person whom the many can understand?" - Lucius Annaeus Seneca -

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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    @basics, from a christian perspective, what should a person living under a tyrannical regime do?
    mishkin,

    Scripture tells us that if we do no harm to any regime it has no reason to harm us. Romans 13:1.

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    mishkin,

    Scripture tells us that if we do no harm to any regime it has no reason to harm us. Romans 13:1.
    basics,

    me. You have just denied the innocence of any victim of any dictatorial regime ever. You have just justified every atrocity committed by a state on its citizens.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    mishkin,

    Well ole fella, I take it that you are Spainish and most likely a Roman Catholic, therefore why, if you are innocent, do you go to confession? Did Rome turn the other cheek when certain protestors contested it's will? No, they were hunted down and killed making Rome a tyranny. Where in God's Law does it say that? No my friend, the Word tells us the opposite and if all men turned back to God's Law there would be no need for any tyranny at all. The problem is that no man is innocent meaning it is sin in us that brings about the troubles we encounter within regimes of any sort and so protesting soon becomes violent in many instances or useless in others.

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    mishkin's Avatar Comes Limitis
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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    you have to resort to all that nonsense talk, starting with the assumption that I am a catholic (???), to defend the most cruelest statement (I am not saying that it is wrong from a religious point of view) that I have ever heard in my life.

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    Default Re: Why protest against tyranny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    you have to resort to all that nonsense talk, starting with the assumption that I am a catholic (???), to defend the most cruelest statement (I am not saying that it is wrong from a religious point of view) that I have ever heard in my life.
    He was too literalist, and kinda missed his point. Basics point was to refer the Hobbesian Social Contract, aswell as prefered brotherhood between government/people.

    To give you a more serious answer, if you think what would Jesus do, well he rebelled against a Tyrannical system so hard they had to Crucify him and make his teachings forbbiden. The difference was that he didn't resort directly to violence, but went via more subtle means.
    It will be seen that, as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless. In conversation, of course, it is used even more wildly than in print. I have heard it applied to farmers, shopkeepers, Social Credit, corporal punishment, fox-hunting, bull-fighting, the 1922 Committee, the 1941 Committee, Kipling, Gandhi, Chiang Kai-Shek, homosexuality, Priestley's broadcasts, Youth Hostels, astrology, women, dogs and I do not know what else.

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