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Thread: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

  1. #1
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    As most of you would know by now, Climate Change is here. You also probably know that EU politicians and academics wave their fingers and use bold words like green revolution or cutting emissions and the hard choices that have to be made and how it will take a lot of work.
    And after making those bold words to clapping, by and large, they get back to their office and don't that work nor take those hard decisions but instead they do minor things like banning plastic straws or asking people to buy electric cars without the infrastructure needed to charge (electric factories) and support (chargers) them, or the mines to provide the materials to build them.

    But how about dealing with the effects of climate change that are affecting us now? I am not talking about how we will soften the future blows or delay the negative impact. I am talking about how EU deals with desertification, soil degradation, water contamination by raising sea levels, food security, etc.
    Simply put, EU so far deals with them with "Oh no!" reactions and scrambling to cover problems that we ALL KNEW were coming for a decade.

    Example 1, from local politicians in my city: We expect flooding this year. Some roads will collapse as we (the technical university) have warned the mayor. Our students, as part of their studies, as taught on how to spot places that may have mudslides from satellites for the past 20 years. The prefecture has funded ways to monitor those places proficiently.
    So, our local politicians know where the problem will be. It is not a secret.
    Their reaction is... (Crickets).
    Again: There are systems the prefecture has paid for, to give warning. Those systems work. They give warning. Our politicians ignore the warning. And this happens for the past 10 years. Actually, a bridge has collapsed 5 years ago (which everyone expected to collapse). The band-aid was supposed to be temporary before the real (and expensive) repairs happened. Those expensive repairs never happened.
    There is a good chance that bridge will collapse again. The mayor says "yeah, it's a problem we got from the previous administration of those crooks and incompetent guys that are now the opposition." Buddy, you are a mayor for 4 years. You can't keep blaming the previous guys. Not to mention that you were voted in to SOLVE those problems. Not just tell us about them.

    Example 2, We are seeking for funding for a research project on how to effectively monitor and minimize the water needed by irrigated agriculture in Greece. In the meeting, I mentioned rice as a possible product to focus on, since it requires A LOT of water. A professor that knows told me that these farms don't irrigate though, cause they are close to the river and the river level is still high. I said "will it be high in 10 years?", the discussion that followed was eye-opening:
    In short the professor (with the connections to the industry) said, that while it is predicted to be problematic and these producers will have to switch to irrigation in 6-10 years, no producer or company wants to pay now for something that may happen in 8 years.. When I said "It is not a 'maybe', it will happen." I was told that the decision makers in the private sector don't see it that way. Which is kinda expected.
    But that's more of a reason to do it with EU funding instead of business funding then. Do it now, with money from the EU, so there's time to implement it, tweak it, move it to different areas, give time to the 'smart agriculture' companies and consulting companies to be adjusted to that tool and methodology etc.

    In case you haven't guessed it from the title of this thread, a different professor that knows the EU people that review those project proposals told us that the reviewers would probably reject our proposal, because it deals with future disasters and problems and not current.
    EU effectively prefers to spend X money to deal with a problem we knew it was coming after it blows up, than X/4 money to ensure the problem doesn't come up.

    And it is infuriating.

    PS. We will go for olive trees and raisins in the proposal and perhaps cotton or apples.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
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  2. #2

    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Have you ever heard the saying "in a democracy (sic) the people have the government they deserve"? Vote green, do not vote for the usual "centrists".

  3. #3
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Rice seems like a poor choice for Greece. But than again I can't understand why any farmer in California is allowed to waste Colorado river irrigation on rice.

    PS. We will go for olive trees and raisins in the proposal and perhaps cotton or apples
    You mean as alternatives to Rice? In that sounds good but for maybe apples. In the US at least of the 3 key apple growing sates two (Michigan and NY) are well watered all year while WA is irrigation all the way for apples.

    Other problem turning the ship of agriculture is a really slow turn. Once the infrastructure is in place from the farmer to all the handling and processing and storage... it hard to change radically.

    But to broader question seems human nature its easier to fix stuff when you have to than it is to plan to either adapt or stop doing something (with cost). Harder still to build that into spending. Consider for example the F-35 everyone loves deriding as the Trillion dollar plane, too expensive etc. Yet nobody seems to care that that number is not the cost of buying it but for the first time rather as far as I can recall its a first of its kind - an estimate of the entire life cycle of the plane from development and its 30 years of expected flying. In contrast politicians love posing for say the opening of a new by pass road or bridge but when they fund that how often have they included funding for 20 or years of maintenance at the beginning. As you say its easy to blame the last guy or figure its the next guys problem.

    Same thing with farming in Kansas. Everyone knows the Ogallala aquifer is being depleted at a vastly unsustainable rate. But a few farmers are changing a lot just want to pump to the water till it is gone because its their water right.

    Resistance to a experimental dry land zone in western Kansas

    https://www.kosu.org/energy-environm...ess-irrigation

    As far as I can tell one problem is you irrigate or dry Kansas has a fairly simple traditional Wheat Sorghum fallow rotation. But irrigated corn (particularity with subsidized crop insurance to cover the real chance at a lost crop) looks like a better pick than sorghum. Very much so when irregated, and with the cheap crop insurgence even dry land when corn is a fail more than succeed crop. So Farmers don't want to change. Nor do I think is the system able to handle the wider dryland mix that has existed in the Palouse of Wheat, Barley, Rapeseed, Lentils, Dry peas. Obviously the solution is for say the government to change the incentives. Cut out the subsidies for corn (both crop insurance and the corn for Ethenal one). So water will not be wasted on Corn. And add subsidies to encourage a large dryland crop system and back financing for what equipment farmers and grain elevators etc will need for say dry peas or lentils. But what pol really wants to tamper with the way things are if they are working fine in the now see how far the last attempt at change got as soon as every vested interest lined up to just do the same old same old with a ain't broke right now don't fix it attitude. No matter how many times the USGS, USDA and Land grant university scientists all say no it really is broke you are driving into a wall but you just shut your eyes.

    https://kansasreflector.com/2022/05/...nt-fell-short/

    Even if you know long term the pumping gotta stop its really difficult to drive change.

    Same for something even more radical like jumping to cotton. which you can do but here the infrastructure hurdle is large and also the cost to any one farmer to buy all new gear. .

    https://www.npr.org/2022/03/09/1085544604/kansas-farmers-are-planting-more-cotton-as-climate-change-redraws-agricultural-m


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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    Have you ever heard the saying "in a democracy (sic) the people have the government they deserve"? Vote green, do not vote for the usual "centrists".
    It is rather disingenuous to pretend that modern "democracy" where elected representatives are not accountable for what they do after they get elected, is by any way, caused by "the people".
    In the end of the day, "climate change" is just another excuse for pro-corporate policies (good example being "green" anti-nuclear luddites playing directly to the fiddle of fossil-fuel industry).

  5. #5

    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Rice seems like a poor choice for Greece. But than again I can't understand why any farmer in California is allowed to waste Colorado river irrigation on rice.



    You mean as alternatives to Rice? In that sounds good but for maybe apples. In the US at least of the 3 key apple growing sates two (Michigan and NY) are well watered all year while WA is irrigation all the way for apples.

    Other problem turning the ship of agriculture is a really slow turn. Once the infrastructure is in place from the farmer to all the handling and processing and storage... it hard to change radically.

    But to broader question seems human nature its easier to fix stuff when you have to than it is to plan to either adapt or stop doing something (with cost). Harder still to build that into spending. Consider for example the F-35 everyone loves deriding as the Trillion dollar plane, too expensive etc. Yet nobody seems to care that that number is not the cost of buying it but for the first time rather as far as I can recall its a first of its kind - an estimate of the entire life cycle of the plane from development and its 30 years of expected flying. In contrast politicians love posing for say the opening of a new by pass road or bridge but when they fund that how often have they included funding for 20 or years of maintenance at the beginning. As you say its easy to blame the last guy or figure its the next guys problem.

    Same thing with farming in Kansas. Everyone knows the Ogallala aquifer is being depleted at a vastly unsustainable rate. But a few farmers are changing a lot just want to pump to the water till it is gone no matter how polluted the water is. I read about it at https://sunnypapers.com/paper-samples/water-pollution/ where the author makes a strong case for how bad the environmental problem is worldwide. Everyone is focused on climate change and continues to ignore this issue.

    Resistance to a experimental dry land zone in western Kansas

    As far as I can tell one problem is you irrigate or dry Kansas has a fairly simple traditional Wheat Sorghum fallow rotation. But irrigated corn (particularity with subsidized crop insurance to cover the real chance at a lost crop) looks like a better pick than sorghum. Very much so when irregated, and with the cheap crop insurgence even dry land when corn is a fail more than succeed crop. So Farmers don't want to change. Nor do I think is the system able to handle the wider dryland mix that has existed in the Palouse of Wheat, Barley, Rapeseed, Lentils, Dry peas. Obviously the solution is for say the government to change the incentives. Cut out the subsidies for corn (both crop insurance and the corn for Ethenal one). So water will not be wasted on Corn. And add subsidies to encourage a large dryland crop system and back financing for what equipment farmers and grain elevators etc will need for say dry peas or lentils. But what pol really wants to tamper with the way things are if they are working fine in the now see how far the last attempt at change got as soon as every vested interest lined up to just do the same old same old with a ain't broke right now don't fix it attitude. No matter how many times the USGS, USDA and Land grant university scientists all say no it really is broke you are driving into a wall but you just shut your eyes.

    As my friend says, the bottom line is that by electing other politicians, we give new people the opportunity to line their pockets, which they enjoy using. When we understand their dishonesty, we elect other hungry guys.

    Quote Originally Posted by Heathen Hammer View Post
    It is rather disingenuous to pretend that modern "democracy" where elected representatives are not accountable for what they do after they get elected, is by any way, caused by "the people".
    In the end of the day, "climate change" is just another excuse for pro-corporate policies (good example being "green" anti-nuclear luddites playing directly to the fiddle of fossil-fuel industry).
    Do not think that everyone understands politics and climate. Sometimes people just vote. I'm interested in reading about "green" anti-nuclear luddites. Share a source?

  6. #6
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by HenryBrns View Post
    As my friend says, the bottom line is that by electing other politicians, we give new people the opportunity to line their pockets, which they enjoy using. When we understand their dishonesty, we elect other hungry guys.



    Do not think that everyone understands politics and climate. Sometimes people just vote. I'm interested in reading about "green" anti-nuclear luddites. Share a source?
    I am cynical and pessimistic by nature but also a bit of a romantic. I see the sentiment you suggest but still somewhere I call up the sense (misplaced idealism soon to be disappointed?) that that is not always the case. I feel it possible to design systems that encourage and reward long term planning and thinking
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    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    More indifference examples:

    We hear all the time in EU about threatened Food Security. For the past 10 years, we hear how the raising sea level contaminates water reservoirs and reduces the quality of the water used for agriculture and how this leads to progressively smaller yields. How desertification and soil degradation have claimed large parts of Southern Europe (I think Romania has lost a significant part of its arable land in the past 10 years and it doesn't stop there).
    For those 10 years, we hear these things. And nothing happens to address these issues. No desalinization plants powered by solar (or sea) power. No change of crops to more resistant varieties and pushing some crops towards the North that has now more "hospitable" climate for many crops than 20 years ago. Climate change is not all bad you know; Latvia can now produce Camomila that would not grow there 20 years ago. Etc.

    The EU sees the problem, informs us of the problem and... *crickets*
    It is like saying to someone "You know what? There is a tsunami coming. You will die in approximately ... 12 hours." and then do NOTHING to help the person escape his or her fate.
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  8. #8
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by alhoon View Post
    More indifference examples:

    We hear all the time in EU about threatened Food Security. For the past 10 years, we hear how the raising sea level contaminates water reservoirs and reduces the quality of the water used for agriculture and how this leads to progressively smaller yields. How desertification and soil degradation have claimed large parts of Southern Europe (I think Romania has lost a significant part of its arable land in the past 10 years and it doesn't stop there).
    For those 10 years, we hear these things. And nothing happens to address these issues. No desalinization plants powered by solar (or sea) power. No change of crops to more resistant varieties and pushing some crops towards the North that has now more "hospitable" climate for many crops than 20 years ago. Climate change is not all bad you know; Latvia can now produce Camomila that would not grow there 20 years ago. Etc.

    The EU sees the problem, informs us of the problem and... *crickets*
    It is like saying to someone "You know what? There is a tsunami coming. You will die in approximately ... 12 hours." and then do NOTHING to help the person escape his or her fate.
    Desalination is pretty pricey

    The view from California gets a pretty fair write up here

    https://capitolweekly.net/desalinati...ch-its-thirst/

    Even with all the latest and best Genetic tech fu really massive changes in things like drought tolerance or tolerance for salinity are not something you kick out in a a year. 5-15 years maybe. Assuming you are trying keep all other things the same.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Desalination is pretty pricey

    The view from California gets a pretty fair write up here

    https://capitolweekly.net/desalinati...ch-its-thirst/
    It’s easier politically when the need is more obvious. This paints a somewhat rosy picture, but I don’t believe it contains any inaccuracies:

    Since 2005, wastewater reclamation and seawater desalination have become key in assuring an adequate supply — 2.1 billion cubic meters annually — to Israeli households, industry and agriculture.

    Some 31 percent of irrigation water originates from wastewater treated at more than 150 plants. Treated brackish water (not as salty as seawater) is supplied from 45 plants for both agricultural and non-agricultural needs.

    Sixty to 80% of Israel’s municipal water, adjusted according to season and real-time demand, flows from large coastal desal plants in Sorek, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Palmachim and Hadera.

    “In 2014, we thought we had enough [desalinated water] capacity, 600 million cubic meters...” says Yaacoby. “That was a mistake. We are lacking 100 million to 200 million cubic meters of water per year in Israel these days.”

    Two more desalination plants are to be completed in the next few years. “Altogether, in 2025 we will be getting 1.1 billion cubic meters of desalinated water,” Yaacoby says…

    From Sorek, it costs about 55 cents per cubic meter; somewhat more from the other four plants.

    By comparison, it costs 10 cents to get a cubic meter of freshwater from Israel’s natural sources – whose supply is fast declining. In some other countries, desalinated water costs as much as $3 per cubic meter.

    IDE developed proprietary technologies to minimize costs and environmental impact, says Boris Liberman, CTO and VP of Membrane Technology.

    Desalination normally uses chemicals, which present an environmental problem when the brine is discharged back to the sea. IDE uses chemical-free biological and physical processes customized for each installation.

    “We use biological filters to remove bacteria, silt, algae and other suspended solids. We don’t kill anything, even bacteria,” says Liberman.

    To avoid harming the little fish and fish eggs that pass through the screens on the intake pipes bringing in 40,000 cubic meters of seawater per hour, IDE is developing “nursery” tanks where the creatures are harbored until they choose to swim back to their habitat via rotating doors.

    As for the plant’s effect on the Mediterranean, “What we pump back into the sea is twice as saline and one degree warmer than seawater,” says Liberman. “We use diffusers to spread it widely. We don’t believe it negatively affects marine life.”

    Desalinating about 500 liters requires 1.5 kilowatts of electricity, similar to the power consumption of a refrigerator, Liberman says. Sorek therefore produces most of its water at night to avoid straining the national grid. Each plant has a different energy source; some have their own power stations...

    Covering 250 acres, Shafdan is the biggest wastewater treatment plant in a country that recycles more water (85-90%) than anywhere else. The reclaimed water, which Yaacoby says is close to drinking quality, is pumped to Negev farms for irrigation.

    “Shafdan uses biological and mechanical means to treat all sewage effluent from the Dan (Greater Tel Aviv) region, home to approximately 250,000 to 300,000 people,” Yaacoby explains during a tour of the plant, one of the most advanced of its kind in the world.

    Shafdan, established in 1955, receives 470,000 cubic meters of raw sewage daily. Reclaiming the water from this sewage supplies 140 million cubic meters to Israeli farms annually just from this one facility.

    Like desalination, wastewater reclamation is energy-intensive. (Mekorot is the biggest client of the Israel Electric Company, racking up a $200 million bill annually, says Yaacoby.)

    However, over the past two years at Shafdan, enough biogas has been generated onsite from the anaerobically treated sludge to provide 90% of the facility’s energy needs.

    “We don’t even call sludge ‘waste’ anymore because it is a resource from which to make energy, bioplastics and fertilizer,” Yaacoby says.
    Quote Originally Posted by Enros View Post
    You don't seem to be familiar with how the burden of proof works in when discussing social justice. It's not like science where it lies on the one making the claim. If someone claims to be oppressed, they don't have to prove it.


  10. #10
    alhoon's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    Desalination is pretty pricey

    The view from California gets a pretty fair write up here

    https://capitolweekly.net/desalinati...ch-its-thirst/

    Even with all the latest and best Genetic tech fu really massive changes in things like drought tolerance or tolerance for salinity are not something you kick out in a a year. 5-15 years maybe. Assuming you are trying keep all other things the same.
    I agree.
    It is pricey.
    It is not something you do in a day, you need 10-15 years.

    And we absolutely have to do it, or we will face food shortages. We have to pay those prices to still have water. And we need to start NOW because it takes 10+ years (I don't know where the 5 years comes from; even if you funded it tomorrow, which you wouldn't, it takes years to plan, build and connect to the water system). And we have ran out of time. Things are ALREADY bad.

    EU pushed billions of Euros to fight Covid. Well, they should push some more billions, 100-150 Billions or so, to start building desalinization plants along the atlantic coast and in Netherlands - where the high population density areas + intense agriculture areas are with a second phase in the Mediterranean.
    Else we will have food shortages in 5-10 years and famines in 20 years.

    ***********************************************************

    https://www.yahoo.com/news/finding-s...090026421.html

    See that? Some people made maps of areas that are safer from climate change in the USA. EU should make such maps, consult such maps and see WHAT makes the safe areas "Safer" and then proceed to help the not-safe areas.
    It is not a question of "if" but "how soon" at this point. Keeping money on the side to put out fires instead of making the house fireproof is idiotic.
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  11. #11
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    I was unclear. I sorta compressed two ideals. On the one hand implementing desalination is pricey. The second part was aimed at crops and the time breeding takes to from ideal to actual implementation. For a complex trait say tolerance of salinity, drought resistance or resistance say some new fungus that is thriving in the climate altered environment... even with all the latest genetics and tools you are still looking at 5 -10+ plus to get a result you can put into the field and also have a pipeline that is working to adapt to any changes.

    On the first desalinization I think right either suck it up and pull the trigger and look around at places from California to Israel and Gulf kingdoms and see what hurdles are and what the costs will be to mitigate the downsides.

    On the second I was just trying to say you might see the results of real decision on plant breeding and crop modification even if did start 5 or 10 years ago.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

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    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    I agree on both issues and I do find the "5-10 years" frame for nice new variaties of plants that can whistand draughts very very optimistic. To have a few of them in 5-6 years, we need something like the mobilization we saw against Covid. And then, you need to start planting those new miracle breeds of plants. And that 10+ years timeframe doesn't include convincing the farmers in Kazakstan to change their crops.
    alhoon is not a member of the infamous Hoons: a (fictional) nazi-sympathizer KKK clan. Of course, no Hoon would openly admit affiliation to the uninitiated.
    "Angry Uncle Gordon" describes me well.
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    We've had a good hard look at rice production in Australia, the industry made its donations and the politicians walked away.

    The most infuriating part us the bland explanations "oh its a new lower water rice" and " well it uses less water than pineapples/melons/sugarcane" duh those are grown in the tropics, the rice is being grown in a semi arid region and they have drained the biggest river system in Australia so hard it doesnt reach the sea anymore.

    The Murray/Darling system has had billions spent on endless "green" projects, but they always seem to end up being "contractor paid to cut down treets planted in last treeplanting project" or "wetland creation money creates wetland on rice growers property and ends up used for irrigation by accident".

    Agriculture in Australia has always been dominated by business, often British companies, and rarely mum and dad outfits (like Mrs Cyclops parents). Those guys make money working 2 cash jobs as well as the land, the big companies seem to bounce from one state-funded rescue to the next.
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  14. #14
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Examples of Institutional indifference to climate change in EU despite bold words and promises

    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    We've had a good hard look at rice production in Australia, the industry made its donations and the politicians walked away.

    The most infuriating part us the bland explanations "oh its a new lower water rice" and " well it uses less water than pineapples/melons/sugarcane" duh those are grown in the tropics, the rice is being grown in a semi arid region and they have drained the biggest river system in Australia so hard it doesnt reach the sea anymore.

    The Murray/Darling system has had billions spent on endless "green" projects, but they always seem to end up being "contractor paid to cut down treets planted in last treeplanting project" or "wetland creation money creates wetland on rice growers property and ends up used for irrigation by accident".

    Agriculture in Australia has always been dominated by business, often British companies, and rarely mum and dad outfits (like Mrs Cyclops parents). Those guys make money working 2 cash jobs as well as the land, the big companies seem to bounce from one state-funded rescue to the next.
    Not sure you can be quite that cynical. I mean once something like a big irrigation system is built and people big and small all invest in on or y or z preconceptions and assumptions... it just hard to change.

    I used your quote

    "wetland creation money creates wetland on rice growers property and ends up used for irrigation by accident".
    and reference to the Murray/Darling system. And came across more than a couple analysis that show the same attitude as one of links on Kansas above shows. People who are all invested in irrigated rice or irrigation in Kansas and they are close enough to cashing it in in retiring. Thus thay have no particular incentive to loose money by changing and are simply betting the water will still be there when they sell so the next guy is buying on the irrigated value.
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

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