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Thread: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

  1. #41
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    The wording did not allow it. The Consul did, and the Citizenry let him get away with it. It's not possible to solve any situation with legislation if there's no enforcement, which is the problem here it seems.

    If you want the Consul only to check whether there's something under the headers 'evidence' and 'arguments', then what you do is
    1) provide criteria for a 'Ostrakon with merit' that can be met with evidently ridiculous and even entirely irrelevant evidence and reasons.
    2a) take away from the Consul his power to throw out those ridiculous Ostraka and therefore
    2b) take away from the Citizenry the grounds to call the Consul to account when he does not.

    Exactly how is that not a deterioration?

    I don't think you understand the wording of the proposal. All the consul has to do is look at the text of the Ostrakon and see if the evidence is there to support the accusations. Not if the evidence is any good, or if the accusations are valid, that's the curia's job. All the consul does is look at the text and ask, does it have links? Yes? Good, go on. No? Try again later.

    There is no qualitative judgement to speak of.

    Furthermore the text of the constitution does not oblige the consul to do that currently. The consul can move forward an empty ostrakon if he so desires. Yes, the Curia could VonC him but realistically speaking it won't, just like it didn't VonC the consul who did mover forward an empty ostrakon.
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  2. #42
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    I don't think you understand the wording of the proposal. All the consul has to do is look at the text of the Ostrakon and see if the evidence is there to support the accusations. Not if the evidence is any good, or if the accusations are valid, that's the curia's job. All the consul does is look at the text and ask, does it have links? Yes? Good, go on. No? Try again later.

    There is no qualitative judgement to speak of.
    What we do not seem to agree on is the original meaning of the article.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Furthermore the text of the constitution does not oblige the consul to do that currently.
    It does. If there's no evidence or argumentation, it's simply not a case. The Consul should not do anything with it.


    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The consul can move forward an empty ostrakon if he so desires.
    Yeah in the sense that he has the technical means to do so. No in the sense that in doing so he fulfills his duties.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    Yes, the Curia could VonC him but realistically speaking it won't, just like it didn't VonC the consul who did mover forward an empty ostrakon.
    And that is the actual problem. I just don't think the Curia felt it could not. I think it didn't want to. There's no point in making rules as long as the rule makers remain prepared to dodge out of the responsibility to uphold them when push comes to shove. The amendment is like an addict that tries to protect themselves from using with a solemn resolution, knowing they've never been able to muster the resolve in the past but saying this time will be different .....
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  3. #43

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Quote Originally Posted by Muizer View Post
    And that is the actual problem. I just don't think the Curia felt it could not. I think it didn't want to. There's no point in making rules as long as the rule makers remain prepared to dodge out of the responsibility to uphold them when push comes to shove. The amendment is like an addict that tries to protect themselves from using with a solemn resolution, knowing they've never been able to muster the resolve in the past but saying this time will be different .....
    [Amendment]: CITIZEN RESPONSABILITY: .All votes are visible once a poll is finished. Any citizen who votes in the curia must give reasons that explain the meaning of their vote.

  4. #44
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Right let's give it one more try, please do not forget to re-affirm support. The OP has been updated with the change.

    --------------------

    Regulations and Procedures to Section III
    1 A citizen initiates an ostrakon by making a case via private message to the Consul, who determines if an ostrakon has merit. Allegations require verifiable evidence in order for the ostrakon to proceed. If an ostrakon has merit:










  5. #45
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    SUPPORT

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    How do you define "Verifiable"?

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  9. #49

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    verifiable, adj.

    Brit. ˈvɛrᵻfʌɪəbl

    U.S. ˌvɛrəˈfaɪəb(ə)l

    Forms: Also 1600s verefiable.
    Etymology: < verify v. + -able suffix.

    That can be verified or proved to be true, authentic, accurate, or real; capable, admitting, or susceptible of verification.Common in the 17th cent., and frequently from c1865.
    1593 G. Harvey Pierces Supererogation 64 I could peraduenture arread him his fortune in a fatall booke, as verifiable, as peremptorie.
    1593 R. Harvey Philadelphus 9 Why should not..Geffrey be as plaine and verifiable as Buchanan?
    a1638 J. Mede Wks. (1672) 789 It is commended for a modest, discreet, learned, regular, and of all in that list most verifiable, discovery.
    1661 J. Glanvill Vanity of Dogmatizing 199 If this notion be strictly verifiable.
    1677 R. Cary Palæologia Chronica ii. i. i. iv. 102 That of the Foundation of the City..is verifiable by the like Authorities.
    1846 J. Ruskin Mod. Painters (ed. 3) I. 322 A few only of the broadest laws verifiable by the reader's immediate observation.
    1846 G. Grote Hist. Greece II. i.xix. 75 Neither Homer nor Hesiod mentioned any verifiable present persons or circumstances.
    1885 E. Clodd Myths & Dreams ii. xii. 227 The authority..will rest on the accredited, because verifiable, experience of man.
    Oxford English Dictionary, accessed 9/24/22

    ver·i·fi·able

    adjective\ ˈverəˌfīəbəl
    1: capable of being verified
    2: susceptible to the possibility of being either theoretically or actually proved true or false by reference to empirical facts

    ver·i·fi·able·ness noun, plural -es

    Origin of VERIFIABLE

    First Known Use: 1523 (sense 1)
    Merriam-Webster Dictionary, Unabridged, accessed 9/24/22

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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Verifiable: Information that can be seen by all citizens/ members of the site without requirement of special permissions.

  11. #51
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

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  12. #52
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    This can be moved to vote, please.










  13. #53
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    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

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  14. #54

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    As the survivor of half a dozen meritless and doomed to fail ostrakons, I think the current system works.
    Last edited by Flinn; October 03, 2022 at 04:25 AM. Reason: removed flaming comment

  15. #55

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Back in my day the accuser had to make the case against and the defendant could either defend himself or get someone to defend him. Was much more fun
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  16. #56

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    As the survivor of half a dozen meritless and doomed to fail ostrakons, I think the current system works.
    I have a 100 percent conviction rate, sounds like a challenge
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
    - Simetrical 2009 in reply to Ferrets54

  17. #57

    Default Re: [Amendment] Section III, Article I - no support, no merit

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I have a 100 percent conviction rate, sounds like a challenge
    Bring it on!

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