Pronouns and References

[basics]

So, if a young man has his penis taken off and is given a vagina of sorts where does he/she go from there? He/she is never a full woman just as a young girl having the sex change can never be a full man. So, why encourage it?

[Akar]

Not true though. Lupron is one of the most common puberty blockers given to kids and is used for chemical castration. So I pointed out it’s no wonder drugs used for chemical castration likely wreck kids’ normal development.

"Chemical castration" is reversible in >99% of situations. Chemical castration functions by stopping the anterior pituitary gland from producing the luteinizing hormones that tell the prostate to create testosterone. When puberty blockers are ceased puberty proceeds uninhibited. Puberty blockers allowed transgender youth the time to explore their gender identity without the life changing physical effects of experiencing male or female puberty amplifying their dysmorphia.

It's like when people hear they use ketamine for dissociative therapy and PTSD treatments and they go "hurr durr horse transquilizer therapy durr hurr" because they don't think medicine can do multiple things.

Sort of like how botulinum toxin is incredibly poisonous and used for cosmetic surgery while also being an incredible life saving drug.

It’s necessary to point out transitioned individuals are far more likely than average to die by suicide

And much less likely to die from suicide than non-transitioned transgender individuals. Within an understanding and accepting social environment transgender children who were able to transition showed similar rates of depression and anxiety as cis-gendered children.

So, if a young man has his penis taken off and is given a vagina of sorts where does he/she go from there? He/she is never a full woman

What makes a woman a full woman?

[Lord Thesaurian]

"Chemical castration" is reversible in >99% of situations. Chemical castration functions by stopping the anterior pituitary gland from producing the luteinizing hormones that tell the prostate to create testosterone. When puberty blockers are ceased puberty proceeds uninhibited. Puberty blockers allowed transgender youth the time to explore their gender identity without the life changing physical effects of experiencing male or female puberty amplifying their dysmorphia.

It's like when people hear they use ketamine for dissociative therapy and PTSD treatments and they go "hurr durr horse transquilizer therapy durr hurr" because they don't think medicine can do multiple things.

Sort of like how botulinum toxin is incredibly poisonous and used for cosmetic surgery while also being an incredible life saving drug.

As above, there is little or no evidence of minors withdrawing from puberty-suppressing drugs and then resuming the normal pubertal development typical for their sex. Recent reviews from the US to the UK to Sweden and Finland have noted that puberty blockers lead to little or no improvement in gender dysphoria, mental health, body image and psychosocial functioning. In the few studies that did report change, the results could be attributable to bias or chance, or were deemed unreliable.

And much less likely to die from suicide than non-transitioned transgender individuals. Within an understanding and accepting social environment transgender children who were able to transition showed similar rates of depression and anxiety as cis-gendered children.

A survey by the National Center for Transgender Equality found the opposite.

A person's work status had a significant impact on their likelihood of having attempted suicide

Other risk factors included the degree to which a person is identifiable as transgender, with those who consider themselves as not being able to pass at 44%, those who are generally out about their transgender status at 44% and those who have only some of their identity documents in their preferred gender at 46%
Those who have medically transitioned (45%) and surgically transitioned (43%) have higher rates of attempted suicide than those who have not (34% and 39% respectively).

http://transequality.org/PDFs/NCTE_S...Prevention.pdf

This is corroborated by other studies, like the one previously cited. A recent study based on the world’s largest dataset on patients who have undergone sex-reassignment procedures reveals that these procedures do not bring mental health benefits.

Compared with the general population, individuals with a gender incongruence diagnosis were about six times as likely to have had a mood and anxiety disorder health care visit, more than three times as likely to have received prescriptions for antidepressants and anxiolytics, and more than six times as likely to have been hospitalized after a suicide attempt. Years since initiating hormone treatment was not significantly related to likelihood of mental health treatment (adjusted odds ratio=1.01, 95% CI=0.98, 1.03).

The results demonstrated no advantage of surgery in relation to subsequent mood or anxiety disorder-related health care visits or prescriptions or hospitalizations following suicide attempts in that comparison.

https://ajp.psychiatryonline.org/doi...1778correction

This is further corroborated by a 2016 review of available data by the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services, which noted a lack of evidence gender reassignment surgery improves health outcomes, including the same study I did in post 38.

[chriscase]

OK so I get the point about this being a recurring complaint - if I want to be called Apache Helicopter why wouldn't you humor me? In fact if it's in good humor I don't particularly mind. What I dislike is some kind of moral outrage if I forget which line of military hardware you wanted to be identified with.

One of my friends back in the mid 80s was what I guess you'd call transitioning. Had been a guy and was taking hormones. Basically a somewhat feminine guy with breasts. Pretty nice ones too IIRC. Anyway we'd always stumble over him/her/it references but s/he thought it was funny. We accepted the choice and loved him/her unconditionally. Not sure if I've changed or the times have but somehow now I'm the reactionary old fart who doesn't understand trans people.

[mishkin]

you say don't understand trans people and yet you choose to attack them with your "Apache Helicopter"

"I Sexually Identify as an Attack Helicopter" is a military science fiction short story by Isabel Fall, published on 1 January 2020 in Clarkesworld Magazine. The story relates the experience of Barb, a woman whose gender has been reassigned to "attack helicopter" so as to make her a better pilot. It was a finalist for the 2021 Hugo Award, under the title "Helicopter Story".

The story's original title is taken from an Internet meme used to disparage transgender people. Some read the story as transphobic or as trolling, and at Fall's request, Clarkesworld withdrew the story after Fall—a transgender woman—was harassed because of it. This caused a discussion among writers and critics about the merits of art that some perceive as hurtful.

chriscase, stop playing dumb, you know very well what you are doing and you have led this discussion in a shameful way trying to hide your true intentions.

[chriscase]

That's odd, I think I've been quite forthcoming.

[Akar]

That's odd, I think I've been quite forthcoming.

That's just an outright lie.

chriscase, stop playing dumb, you know very well what you are doing and you have led this discussion in a shameful way trying to hide your true intentions.

Anyone who has had to argue with transphobes on the internet before could have told you what was going on just from reading the OP.

[chriscase]

Well I keep asking what is it that I appear to have failed to answer but no one is clarifying. If you think I'm evading some question why not just ask it plainly so I can answer?

[Akar]

I posted a long response to you that you ignored. It is on the first page.

[mishkin]

Well I keep asking what is it that I appear to have failed to answer but no one is clarifying. If you think I'm evading some question why not just ask it plainly so I can answer?

you wrote a very vague opening post. some interpreted it as some existentialist bs, others as an attack on the trans community. You gave vague responses to the former, and ignored the comments of the latter. It wasn't clear until the second page of this thread that you simply wanted to "discuss" the right of non-cis people to use the pronoun of their choice. At this point I have no interest in asking you anything, with this farce you just wanted (want) to tease people who feel uncomfortable with a certain pronoun and want to use another, that's all. Again, I hope you had a good time.

[chriscase]

I posted a long response to you that you ignored. It is on the first page.

Oh was that the one where you berated me as an insufferably rude trans-hater with serious personal issues? Did you expect that to be taken as some kind of legitimate response to the OP? The only "question" in there was a nonsense query about whether I thought nihilism is a gender identity. Are you really waiting for an answer on that?

you wrote a very vague opening post. some interpreted it as some existentialist bs, others as an attack on the trans community. You gave vague responses to the former, and ignored the comments of the latter. It wasn't clear until the second page of this thread that you simply wanted to "discuss" the right of non-cis people to use the pronoun of their choice. At this point I have no interest in asking you anything, with this farce you just wanted (want) to tease people who feel uncomfortable with a certain pronoun and want to use another, that's all. Again, I hope you had a good time.

I like to define my terms, especially those that tend to be assumed but also hard to pin down. So, what is identity anyway? I thought that was a better approach than just grousing about pronouns, though I would have thought the title was direct enough.

In the past I've never had an issue calling people pretty much whatever they want. Yet of late I have been having a sense of what seems to be an arbitrarily shifting linguistic terrain, as well as an increasing irritation at the self-appointed ideological purity test squad intent on enforcing the latest revision of the rules.

I suppose the real question is why, if I'm tired of listening to a bunch of self-righteous caterwauling, did I ever think to post my thoughts here? But what can I say, I love this board and I still have faith in it.

[mishkin]

Yes, seems eminently reasonable and certainly close enough to my practical experience. However, when I see people going through multiple “identities” and every week seems different than the last, I have to think we’ve sort of lost the point of it all. On top of that, when compliance with self-appointed arbiters of “the right way” has turned into what appears to be an ideological purity test, I am inclined to resist.

Don’t we have bigger fish to fry? Like stuff that actually matters? Call me whatever, it’s not me. There is no me. Really, who cares? When I used to care about this, I believed no one was purely “binary”. It’s just words. But now apparently I’m a reactionary because I think changing your pronoun on a weekly basis is silly.

Is this really a significant real-world phenomenon though, outside perhaps a handful on twitter? Virtually everyone would say that changing your pronouns on a weekly basis is evidence of silliness, deep confusion, or both. Happily, barely anyone actually does this, so it's insignificant compared to the relevant issue of trans people consistently identifying with a certain gender, and understandably expecting to be referred to as such.

Perhaps my own experience is atypical then.

yes, without a doubt your experience is atypical and without a doubt you knew in advance that this was so. maybe you should have approached this discussion as something fun in Thema Devia: "Hey guys, this is amazing, out of twenty people in my close circle five habitually change gender, they are driving me crazy". many would have said that this was just a transphobic invention, but still you would have saved us a lot of words.

In the past I've never had an issue calling people pretty much whatever they want. Yet of late I have been having a sense of what seems to be an arbitrarily shifting linguistic terrain, as well as an increasing irritation at the self-appointed ideological purity test squad intent on enforcing the latest revision of the rules.

I suppose the real question is why, if I'm tired of listening to a bunch of self-righteous caterwauling, did I ever think to post my thoughts here? But what can I say, I love this board and I still have faith in it.

you won't be the first person to think of themselves as progressive until progress reaches a certain point. It has happened to many people who consider themselves feminists, leftists or non-racists. What I don't understand is the frustration and the need to attack instead of the option to open your ears, reflect and maybe accept that you have been outdated.

Anyway, next time start with what you really mean. Bye.

[chriscase]

you won't be the first person to think of themselves as progressive until progress reaches a certain point. It has happened to many people who consider themselves feminists, leftists or non-racists.

I think more to the point, it's not necessary to identify as transphobic to participate in transphobic institutions and activities that promote transphobia, any more than it's necessary to identify as racist in order to participate in racist institutions and activities that promote racism.

In my mind it's all the active hostility and violence against trans people (along with pretty much all vulnerable people) that's what I'd call the real problem. Seems pretty distinct from someone's understandable and well meaning confusion about changing usage of pronouns.

But back to my original point, I want to get ahead of the curve. I predict all names and references are inherently violent and will eventually be dropped. Let's get on the vanguard.

[Akar]

"You don't have to identify as a transphobe to be transphobic"

No ing man.

well meaning confusion

I don't think a single person in this thread thinks you are well intentioned.

Oh was that the one where you berated me as an insufferably rude trans-hater with serious personal issues? Did you expect that to be taken as some kind of legitimate response to the OP? The only "question" in there was a nonsense query about whether I thought nihilism is a gender identity. Are you really waiting for an answer on that?

"I answered every question I was asked"
"What about mine?"
"You're rude and that's an illegitimate question"

I mean christ how do you take yourself seriously lmfao

[chriscase]

Well hello again! It seems like only yesterday we said our goodbyes.

You seem to have misread who called who rude. I never said you were rude. I only expressed doubt that you had asked any actual "question". If there was something in your post that addressed the OP (other than simply yelling about how much I must hate trans people), I don't see it.

I think often the problem is taking oneself too seriously, don't you agree?

[Akar]

Well I see that you've no interest in arguing in good faith.

[chriscase]

I don't see why you won't at least consider my argument that names and references are themselves inherently violent and something we'd be better off without. It's not like I haven't spelled it out.

[Muizer]

I don't see why you won't at least consider my argument that names and references are themselves inherently violent and something we'd be better off without. It's not like I haven't spelled it out.

Try writing that sentence without them. Not possible. You're saying communication is inherently violent and should be dispensed with.


It's not quite the same as "apache helicopter", in that it's a futile proposition instead of a wholly arbitrary one.

What they have in common is that when used for comparison to the pronoun discussion, they trivialize the issue the latter is trying to deal with.

[basics]

Akar,

What makes a woman a full woman is having the organs to produce offspring which her body was designed for.

[PointOfViewGun]

Well I keep asking what is it that I appear to have failed to answer but no one is clarifying. If you think I'm evading some question why not just ask it plainly so I can answer?

Any time someone threw a criticism of logic at you we were welcomed with cricket sounds. The thread is full of posts you're ignoring. Do you think your opinion is beyond criticism?