Germany issues CIA arrest orders

[bigfootedfred]

Germany has ordered the arrest of 13 suspected CIA agents over the alleged kidnapping of one of its citizens.

Munich prosecutors confirmed that the warrants were linked to the case of Khaled al-Masri, a German national of Lebanese descent.
Mr Masri says he was seized in Macedonia, flown to a secret prison in Afghanistan and mistreated there.
He says he was released in Albania five months later when the Americans realised they had the wrong man.
Mr Masri says his case is an example of the US policy of "extraordinary rendition" - a practice whereby the US government flies foreign terror suspects to third countries without judicial process for interrogation or detention.

Prosecutors in Munich said in a statement that the city's court had issued the warrants on suspicion of abduction and grievous bodily harm.

...

Meanwhile in the Italian city of Milan, court hearings to decide whether to indict 25 alleged CIA agents and several Italians accused of kidnapping a Muslim cleric in 2003 are under way.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6316369.stm

Well no one thinks they are in Europe anymore.
But if they turn up again anywhere in the EU and are found, they can be arrested and charged.

Would the United States Extradite these men to Germany to stand trial for the charges they stand accused of? After all they try European citizens on charges for crimes that went even committed in the united states these days. Surely, American citizens who have actually been charged with committing crimes, in Germany's borders, should be extradited to stand trial there.

[RusskiSoldat]

After all they try European citizens on charges for crimes that went even committed in the united states these days.

You mean the Muslims who fight against Iraq in the US and then go brag about it to their buddies?

And no, this won't lead to anything, nor should it.

[Erik]

After all they try European citizens on charges for crimes that went even committed in the united states these days. Surely, American citizens who have actually been charged with committing crimes, in Germany's borders, should be extradited to stand trial there.

I fully agree.
They should hand them over to Germany because they demand the same from Germany and other European countries. (see also this thread http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=81350)
But somehow I doubt they will.

[Hotspur]

Surely, American citizens who have actually been charged with committing crimes, in Germany's borders, should be extradited to stand trial there.

I suggest you re-read your post. No crimes were committed in Germany.

[bigfootedfred]

I suggest you re-read your post. No crimes were committed in Germany.

Yes your right, he was not seized inside Germany. Though it is thought he was tracked within Germany's borders, itself, illegal.

And

Meanwhile in the Italian city of Milan, court hearings to decide whether to indict 25 alleged CIA agents and several Italians accused of kidnapping a Muslim cleric in 2003 are under way.
Osama Mustafa Hassan, or Abu Omar, says he was abducted from the streets of Milan and then tortured in Egypt.

This case, also from the same article, is within the EU.

[JP226]

Let them piss and moan all they want. I could care less what Germany thinks or wants honestly.

[bigfootedfred]

Let them piss and moan all they want. I could care less what Germany thinks or wants honestly.

Well.
How about, we send some guys to the US.
Track some of your citizens. then, next time they pop into Mexico or Canada.
we grab them, fly them Egypt. then Torture them, then 6 months later say,
'oh sorry, wrong guy'.

Sound good?

But ah yes i forget. only Americans have rights these days.

[Roy Batty]

Let them piss and moan all they want. I could care less what Germany thinks or wants honestly.

I believe what you meant to say there, judging by the general tone of your post is: "I couldn't care less..." What is your source of distaste for Germany, anyway?

Regardless, I doubt it will happen. The U.S. extraditing one of their citizens to stand trial in another country, and a citizen that was working for the U.S. government at the time? I think you would have a better chance of catching a Grey Hound bus to Lebanon.

[Last Roman]

Let them piss and moan all they want. I could care less what Germany thinks or wants honestly.

siiigh, so much for the rule of law.

[Cassy]

siiigh, so much for the rule of law.

Quite. What possible benefits can such an attitude achieve?

[JP226]

Well.
How about, we send some guys to the US.
Track some of your citizens. then, next time they pop into Mexico or Canada.
we grab them, fly them Egypt. then Torture them, then 6 months later say,
'oh sorry, wrong guy'.

HAHAHA! I didn't know you were German.

You act as if this was some randomn innocent bystandard that was picked up and whisked away and supposedly tortured. You really think we grabbed some randomn German off the streets? Absoultely no connection whatsoever? Whether or not he specifically the guy we were looking for?

Either way this is just a song and dance to please the Plebs. Nothing will come of it.

[bigfootedfred]

HAHAHA! I didn't know you were German.

Who said i was german?

You act as if this was some randomn innocent bystandard that was picked up and whisked away and supposedly tortured. You really think we grabbed some randomn German off the streets? Absoultely no connection whatsoever? Whether or not he specifically the guy we were looking for?

Ah i see, he might have been a 'evil man'?

You have absolutely no right to do it in the first place.
This is what you don't seem to be understanding.
The united states, does not have the right to go around grabbing citizens of foreign country's and torturing them. none whatsoever.

Again, if we came to your country and started tracking your citizens.
And started grabbing them in the dead of night, whisking them away to be tortured somewhere, with no legal rights, and legal recourse.
I doubt you 'wouldn't care less'.

I seriously doubt the CIA would hand over operatives. My guess is they'll get new Identities.

Yeah well, its highly unlikely that the US would ever do anything but screw us in Europe up the ass, again, and again, and again.
But you never know...

[Elric von Rabenfels]

America is playing world police again? Sucks. Greatly. Why do you think America has the right to do anything and the rest of the world dont have rights at all? Forgot that America was founded by the idea that freedom is most important? And now you´re taking away that freedom from everybody else.

[Hotspur]

Though it is thought he was tracked within Germany's borders, itself, illegal

Blanket generalization. The legality of the survelliance would depend on the methods and level of co-operation with BfV (or would it be the BND?).

[Ó Cathasaigh]

I seriously doubt the CIA would hand over operatives. My guess is they'll get new Identities.

[Roy Batty]

I seriously doubt the CIA would hand over operatives. My guess is they'll get new Identities.

That or we'll drown them in the Potamic. Far more likely considering our current government and their paranoia over (yet more) potential whistle-blowers.

You act as if this was some randomn innocent bystandard that was picked up and whisked away and supposedly tortured. You really think we grabbed some randomn German off the streets? Absoultely no connection whatsoever? Whether or not he specifically the guy we were looking for?

Either way this is just a song and dance to please the Plebs. Nothing will come of it.

It doesn't matter if it was some innocent bystander or Osama Bin Laden's busom body. The United States government continues to piss on the rights of other nations and their governments, their constitutions and their citizens, and even does the same to their own citizens. There are international laws and nation-to-nation specific treaties outlining how things are supposed to be done in this kind of situation.

But you're right, this is just song and dance and nothing will ever come of it. I'm sure.

"This aggression will not stand, man." - The Dude

[JP226]

You have absolutely no right to do it in the first place.
This is what you don't seem to be understanding.
The united states, does not have the right to go around grabbing citizens of foreign country's and torturing them. none whatsoever.

You're assuming that this news story is exactly what's happening. How do you know that an agreement wasn't reached first and this is some underling who has no idea, bringing such events to the surface? You don't know anything.

[Cassy]

This is a case of misjustice. No doubt, it shall be followed by more cases of injustice.

[JP226]

There are international laws and nation-to-nation specific treaties outlining how things are supposed to be done in this kind of situation.

exactly. While I don't believe in the notion of International law, there is the politics of the situation to consider. More reason as to why we should consider what we don't know. The fricken report doesn't even mention german and american government involvement one way or another. It;s simply a blurb to get people like yourselves unnerved and to buy BBCBS.

[Hansa]

exactly. While I don't believe in the notion of International law, there is the politics of the situation to consider. More reason as to why we should consider what we don't know. The fricken report doesn't even mention german and american government involvement one way or another. It;s simply a blurb to get people like yourselves unnerved and to buy BBCBS.

I do not think you are all familiar with the case in question.

Al Masri was a German car salesman from Ulm of Lebanese decent, he even looks German, semi long hair, no beard, all he lacks is the mustache.

JP226, what if German intelligence believed (for NO good reason, they had misspelled your name or something) that you were a terrorist, kidnaped you while you were on holiday in Mexico, flew you to a secret German prison in Kazakhstan, where you were held for 6 months, tortured and told every friggin day by the Khazakstani prison guards that you were never to get out of there ever. then you were suddenly flown to Chile, told that ''we were wrong about you, sorry, a case of mistaken identity'' and dropped off in the middle of nowhere.

Apart from persons and countries involved, this is almost exactly what happened to Al-Masri. Your local car-salesman. I respect Mr.Masri for not committing suicide, and I think that if this sort of thing was done to a law abiding, tax paying US citizen, most of the forum members posting here would be for international law and demand justice. I would.