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Thread: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

  1. #21
    Belisarius's Avatar Like so Divine!
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    I did once VonC a member of staff (not sure if he was actually removed before or during) but in certain circumstances such a procedure is warranted. Two cases come to mind, H&G and Crandar.

    Now that TWC has shrunk and seems to be settling into its probable last phase of existence the shrinkage of the pool of people who would decide such a matter does raise questions. When TWC had an active the pool of voters it meant that any vote which came from personal grudges was diluted by many active neutral citizens.

    That said, if someone actually were to fail a VonC then binding or not, that person should probably resign and there are instances in TWC's past where this was warranted and there is noting excluding that from happening again.

    I would keep it based on the fact anyone doing it maliciously should probably have the process backfire on them.

    At this stage I think those of you left should forget about working on the CURIA/Staff dynamic and focus on the fact TWC is no longer an attractive place for creative people to come and share their work, start projects and discuss games.

    I am starting to feel that nostalgia aside, if there are enough active creative people around who want to keep the community going then it might be time to repeat what happened in 2004..
    Well, if I, Belisarius, the Black Prince, and you all agree on something, I really don't think there can be any further discussion.
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  2. #22
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I did once VonC a member of staff (not sure if he was actually removed before or during) but in certain circumstances such a procedure is warranted. Two cases come to mind, H&G and Crandar.

    Now that TWC has shrunk and seems to be settling into its probable last phase of existence the shrinkage of the pool of people who would decide such a matter does raise questions. When TWC had an active the pool of voters it meant that any vote which came from personal grudges was diluted by many active neutral citizens.

    That said, if someone actually were to fail a VonC then binding or not, that person should probably resign and there are instances in TWC's past where this was warranted and there is noting excluding that from happening again.

    I would keep it based on the fact anyone doing it maliciously should probably have the process backfire on them.

    At this stage I think those of you left should forget about working on the CURIA/Staff dynamic and focus on the fact TWC is no longer an attractive place for creative people to come and share their work, start projects and discuss games.

    I am starting to feel that nostalgia aside, if there are enough active creative people around who want to keep the community going then it might be time to repeat what happened in 2004..
    Ah, the gaydar affair, oh the memories.

    As for 2004, what of ALL things that happened in 2004 would you like to repeat; because you/I/we did a laundry list of naughty stuff.

    Regarding the topic, Finn is right, it was probably me or ferrets54 who phrased this part; there was a brief time where some staff members had to be Curial officers.

  3. #23
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    At this stage I think those of you left should forget about working on the CURIA/Staff dynamic and focus on the fact TWC is no longer an attractive place for creative people to come and share their work, start projects and discuss games..
    I'd be interested in hearing more about what made TWC an attractive place for creative people to share work, start projects and discuss games in the past. I'm also curious about what happened in 2004.

  4. #24
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I would keep it based on the fact anyone doing it maliciously should probably have the process backfire on them.
    The problem is that there is simply no process or realistic consequence for backfire. It's nothing or ostrakon. Point taken though; even if it doesn't strictly backfire, it will fizz out if frivolous.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    At this stage I think those of you left should forget about working on the CURIA/Staff dynamic and focus on the fact TWC is no longer an attractive place for creative people to come and share their work, start projects and discuss games.

    I am starting to feel that nostalgia aside, if there are enough active creative people around who want to keep the community going then it might be time to repeat what happened in 2004..
    The dynamic could be a vessel to motivate and work on the appeal of different areas. It's not the only path of course, I'm open to discuss...

  5. #25
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I am starting to feel that nostalgia aside, if there are enough active creative people around who want to keep the community going then it might be time to repeat what happened in 2004..
    I have been echoing this for years now. It had more to do with citizenship becoming a bloated cow of requirements that well beyond its original intent. It was more about 'doing stuff" and less about the quality of the poster. It to the point where GED also stated that he did not trust certain "citizens" in regard to stuff appearing on the front page.

    Citizenship applications are also bloated affairs. It was better when the patron wrote a brief but nice paragraph about why a member was a "righteous dude" deserving of citizenship and the applicant writing why they thought they will make a good citizen. The "doing stuff" was a lovely lagniappe. It has completely reversed and it has been detrimental. It is only part of the issues afflicting the site, the biggest being an absentee owner. Most of the issues trickle down from his absence.

  6. #26

    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I am starting to feel that nostalgia aside, if there are enough active creative people around who want to keep the community going then it might be time to repeat what happened in 2004..
    Agreed.

  7. #27

    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    People seem to base too much on level of activity but if you all check how many votes were cast back since 2000s there isn't really a gigantic difference compared to today, at least not the kind of difference it is implied.
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  8. #28

    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    People seem to base too much on level of activity but if you all check how many votes were cast back since 2000s there isn't really a gigantic difference compared to today, at least not the kind of difference it is implied.
    Correct, which is why relying on that argument of "inactivity" to justify drastic actions such as removing the tribunal is objectionable. I have a pretty good idea of what went on to save the tribunal behind the scenes. Ultimately I'm not bothered enough to pursue the issue for now.

    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    I did once VonC a member of staff (not sure if he was actually removed before or during) but in certain circumstances such a procedure is warranted. Two cases come to mind, H&G and Crandar.
    Certainly Crandar did nothing wrong.

    This point is well taken and confirms the reality that staff can be VONCed and this is not simply an anachronistic, overlooked element of the Constitution. Now, whether or not Hex, in 2022, comprehends, cares about, or responds to this action is another can of fish.

    That said, if someone actually were to fail a VonC then binding or not, that person should probably resign and there are instances in TWC's past where this was warranted and there is noting excluding that from happening again.
    Agreed.

    I would keep it based on the fact anyone doing it maliciously should probably have the process backfire on them.
    It almost always has, unless the vote is more or less 50/50 as I'd relate every Ostrakon I've survived. As many people love me as hate me.

    At this stage I think those of you left should forget about working on the CURIA/Staff dynamic and focus on the fact TWC is no longer an attractive place for creative people to come and share their work, start projects and discuss games.
    That ship sailed years ago. Steam was a fatal shot in the chest, outdated and moronic policies surrounding "mod copyright" on TWC which led to the last greatest modder group bring forced off site confirmed that. Hex failed us on that front years ago. The TATW modder community was banned from TWC but hey, at least a modder who hadn't logged in for the better part of a decade and who failed to respond to various communications whose work was protected won't be offended.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Ah, the gaydar affair, oh the memories.
    Homophobic TWC? Listen here...

    As for 2004, what of ALL things that happened in 2004 would you like to repeat; because you/I/we did a laundry list of naughty stuff.

    Regarding the topic, Finn is right, it was probably me or ferrets54 who phrased this part; there was a brief time where some staff members had to be Curial officers.


    It wasn't a brief period in time. When I was hiring moderators when I was CoM they had to be citizens. And I also led a moderation palace coup, twice. Once in 2007 and another in 2008 iirc. When I was in staff I had to contend daily with people ranking below me, above me, and at my level who held different opinions from me. Seems that dynamic has been absolutely abolished. Staff seems to be a hivemind now from the top down. Dissent is not permitted, and if you don't conform you are locked out. Doesn't matter if this means a position as serious as moderator or as purely "volunteer" as librarian: make the list and you are DONE. It is ironically these latest longest term serving staff members who owe their long term service due to basic decline and inactivity that don't understand these things. They've all been in Hex too long, with little to no dissenting voices to deal with, they refuse to deal with opposition, and this has created a false sense of conformity.
    Last edited by Pontifex Maximus; August 13, 2022 at 06:17 PM.

  9. #29
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    People seem to base too much on level of activity but if you all check how many votes were cast back since 2000s there isn't really a gigantic difference compared to today, at least not the kind of difference it is implied.
    I am not sure what data you are looking at, but 2009- 2011 saw votes eclipse 50 total votes on a regular basis. This would make since given the heyday for patronages were in 20006- 2008. I did notice some occasional dips in numbers but the number of yes votes were greater than the total votes we get on average now. Another big difference is the number of people who actually participated in discussions. We would need another 15 members to be more active and triple the amount of the "quiet" ones who vote to comes close to the 2009- 2011 levels.

  10. #30

    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Sure, but none of that is proportional to the current number of even daily active members right?

  11. #31

    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by PikeStance View Post
    I am not sure what data you are looking at, but 2009- 2011 saw votes eclipse 50 total votes on a regular basis. This would make since given the heyday for patronages were in 20006- 2008. I did notice some occasional dips in numbers but the number of yes votes were greater than the total votes we get on average now. Another big difference is the number of people who actually participated in discussions. We would need another 15 members to be more active and triple the amount of the "quiet" ones who vote to comes close to the 2009- 2011 levels.
    Right now, we're often getting 10-20 votes. Even if you go back 10 years we were getting about 25 votes. Keep in mind very recently that the Consul election got 49 votes. You have to go pre-2012 to see 50 votes in high frequency.

    Perhaps, its not exactly the numbers but rather content.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    I created several threads and pots where I show the decline of the site. There were (if memory serves two spikes in decline which I believe was also indicated by looking into the votes last night. I do not have time to look into it again at the moment. For the most par,t the decline has been steady and gradual which is why most hardly recognized it until more recently (Many didn't believe it until AL validated my findings).

    Some interesting notes. With the removal of the CdeC, we lost a lot of "curalists," but the participation overall spiked. However, this proved to be short lived. Once the novelty wore off and the Curial focused in on itself, participating and activity within declined sharply. However, this is deceptive. The decline didn't increase, the spike in interest just naturally waned. Paradoxically, the final years of the CdeC was about the same in decline as the time period after the spike.

  13. #33
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Sure, but none of that is proportional to the current number of even daily active members right?
    I don't have any data, but it does seem there are less active members online. I didn't take any data but it does seem that it is lower. Unregistered users I have to same feeling. Again, no actual data and I do not check often.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Garbarsardar View Post
    Ah, the gaydar affair, oh the memories.

    As for 2004, what of ALL things that happened in 2004 would you like to repeat; because you/I/we did a laundry list of naughty stuff.

    Regarding the topic, Finn is right, it was probably me or ferrets54 who phrased this part; there was a brief time where some staff members had to be Curial officers.
    Looking back the biggest tragedy is that a fake Gaydar profile tBP made got more hits in one day then my tinder profile gets in a year now.

    As for which escapades, ALL OF THEM.

    But I might be referring to 2003, basically when they lost legion.total.war and rebuilt from scratch.

    I'd be interested in hearing more about what made TWC an attractive place for creative people to share work, start projects and discuss games in the past. I'm also curious about what happened in 2004
    Well basically back then the internet was still in the phase where forums such as TWC were the way people communicated in the gaming world, this is pre youtube, facebook, twitch etc.

    Take me as an example, I liked to write and worked in content and when I released special editions of the Eagle Standard we would sometimes get 10, 000 views a week on something our team wrote, that incentives. The site was smaller, fast and easy to navigate. Today TWC is slow, has a dated skin and layout, still used the forum organisation system which we had developed and is bloated by years of stuff, the vast majority of TWC is more like an archive. Couple that with declining views and engagement.

    I mean I can write pages and pages on this and did post two years ago in detail in a thread - but the thing I am alluding to is that for me as a 15/16 year old TWC taught me skills in organizing, writing, politics and failing/succeeding, dealing with people where I know it was instrumental in the direction I took in my professional life, I would not work where I do now if it were not for the skills I learned in TWC. This is missing today and this is a shame because there are many young people or older persons who could benefit from the community.

    After lurking for years I honestly think today it may be time to take stock of whether there are enough people (you dont need that many) to do what the original Siblesz, Boris, GEN and so on did and rebuild. Archive the whole site and store it as a repository and cut a line and rebuild.

    make the list and you are DONE.
    I jumped on and off the list three times!

    The problem is that there is simply no process or realistic consequence for backfire. It's nothing or ostrakon. Point taken though; even if it doesn't strictly backfire, it will fizz out if frivolous.
    Well consequence can be informal, if someone tries to pass silly bills and constantly backtracks or is not coherent then they will not be taken seriously anymore.

    Just like today's polit.... erm well maybe we do need some consequences...

    The TATW modder community was banned from TWC but hey, at least a modder who hadn't logged in for the better part of a decade and who failed to respond to various communications whose work was protected won't be offended.
    Third Age TW banned from TWC? WHAT! I remember posting their stuff on the front page when we had the package system (the package system was where content staff would find small promising mod projects on the forum and message them and offer them a package of a forum, content on front page and a spotlight on the ES) and having things flagged from time to time on property rights, post of the time it was sorted via mediation but then we got a mod hex and I kinda stopped being involved.
    Last edited by Belisarius; August 14, 2022 at 05:34 AM.
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  15. #35
    Muizer's Avatar member 3519
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    IMHO because consequences are explicitly stated for curial officers, it is already implicit that there are no consequences for other staff members. I'd support making it explicit. I don't think there's any harm in allowing non-binding VoNC against staff. It's pretty theoretical though. For one to pass would require some serious rift opening up between Hex and Curia which would probably make the Constitution a dead letter anyway. Allowing a VoNC discussion to start could provide an early warning.


    "Resolutions can be Amendments, making changes to this document8; Decisions, suggesting changes to the site; Nominations, proposing a member for a Curial award; or Votes of No Confidence (VoNC) against Curial Officers or Staff Members. A VoNC may only be initiated for neglect of duty or abuse of authority10. If successful against a Curial Officer, results in their immediate removal from office.11 VoNC's against other staff members are non-binding.
    Last edited by Muizer; August 14, 2022 at 05:40 AM.
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  16. #36
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    According to the figures of Augustus Lucifer, activity has been declining since 2009 and, with the exception of a few spikes (resulting from hype about highly anticipated games, like Rome II), the trend has been accelerating. The chronology indicates that the main factor for the decline is the changes in the modding landscape and the advent of social media platforms, so it's not the fault of a group or a specific member. Curial procedures, political debates and criticism of TW games are of a marginal importance and don't even affect the majority of the community, not to mention any prospected members.
    Quote Originally Posted by Belisarius View Post
    Third Age TW banned from TWC? WHAT! I remember posting their stuff on the front page when we had the package system (the package system was where content staff would find small promising mod projects on the forum and message them and offer them a package of a forum, content on front page and a spotlight on the ES) and having things flagged from time to time on property rights, post of the time it was sorted via mediation but then we got a mod hex and I kinda stopped being involved.
    TATW was not banned from TWC, only Divide and Conquer, a mod based on TATW. The reason for that was the modders decided to make their mod a stand-alone, which violated the conditions established by King Kong for permission to use his mod's assets.

  17. #37
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    TATW was not banned from TWC, only Divide and Conquer, a mod based on TATW. The reason for that was the modders decided to make their mod a stand-alone, which violated the conditions established by King Kong for permission to use his mod's assets.
    Ah that makes more sense, the only way they would have been able to do that is to get written consent from the owner and produce it as evidence.

    I mean this may highlight an issue in general when you have such an old community with resources years old and people disappearing, seems from the thread things were done correctly.
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    I failed in the details, but not the sentiment. We have a highly popular sub-mod being banned off TWC because someone who hasn't been active on TWC in years failed to give his blessing (even when every indication says he would, with years and countless reaching out to him for permission, with no success). TWC choosing to pursue the most non-pragmatic policy in order to satisfy a non-active member of 5+ years is just such a clear symptom of the cancer afflicting TWC from a modder standpoint. Instead of compromising with some sort of statute of limitations, time period to assent or dissent, YWC admins decided to strictly adhere to the ToS and just shut everything down without any critical thinking whatsoever. Any chance we had to be competitive with modding was destroyed with this decision. If King Kong had died, and could not have consented to the D&C team, it would not have mattered. It's these sort of decisions I simply cannot understand.

    I've been playing D&C for two years now. Awesome mod. D&C has nothing to do with TWC because TWC demands it has nothing to do with D&C.

    Please, make it make sense...

  19. #39
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    I mean I can write pages and pages on this and did post two years ago in detail in a thread - but the thing I am alluding to is that for me as a 15/16 year old TWC taught me skills in organizing, writing, politics and failing/succeeding, dealing with people where I know it was instrumental in the direction I took in my professional life, I would not work where I do now if it were not for the skills I learned in TWC. This is missing today and this is a shame because there are many young people or older persons who could benefit from the community.
    This is fantastically put. I can also attest that those were some of the many things that first brought me to this community in the first place. I would also not be who I am today if not for TWC.

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: [Discussion] VonCin Staffers

    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    I failed in the details, but not the sentiment. We have a highly popular sub-mod being banned off TWC because someone who hasn't been active on TWC in years failed to give his blessing (even when every indication says he would, with years and countless reaching out to him for permission, with no success). TWC choosing to pursue the most non-pragmatic policy in order to satisfy a non-active member of 5+ years is just such a clear symptom of the cancer afflicting TWC from a modder standpoint. Instead of compromising with some sort of statute of limitations, time period to assent or dissent, YWC admins decided to strictly adhere to the ToS and just shut everything down without any critical thinking whatsoever. Any chance we had to be competitive with modding was destroyed with this decision. If King Kong had died, and could not have consented to the D&C team, it would not have mattered. It's these sort of decisions I simply cannot understand.

    I've been playing D&C for two years now. Awesome mod. D&C has nothing to do with TWC because TWC demands it has nothing to do with D&C.

    Please, make it make sense...
    Surely if they reach out to him and produce a letter with him giving consent then the issue would be resolved.

    According to the figures of Augustus Lucifer, activity has been declining since 2009 and, with the exception of a few spikes (resulting from hype about highly anticipated games, like Rome II), the trend has been accelerating. The chronology indicates that the main factor for the decline is the changes in the modding landscape and the advent of social media platforms, so it's not the fault of a group or a specific member. Curial procedures, political debates and criticism of TW games are of a marginal importance and don't even affect the majority of the community, not to mention any prospected members.
    This is true and I had agreed with him, the point I had made is that there are community forums and websites such as icy veins which do still do well because they adapt and modernize, TWC has not adapted enough to keep people coming when the Franchise it complements has arguably grown in the same time period (Warhammer).
    Last edited by Belisarius; August 15, 2022 at 03:55 AM.
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