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Thread: Tribunal Expediency Act

  1. #21

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    emphasizing what was said by PikeStance: in the tribunal it is determined if the moderators have applied the terms of service correctly. if someone is tried in the tribunal, it is moderation team/the moderator, not the appellant. forget about the innocence or guilt of the punished user.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Notice what that first clause says, "to defend the rights of Members" Now see what the second says "and to ensure fair and just punishment..." Two separate and distinct clauses referring to two separate responsibilities of the tribunal - to defend the rights of members AND to ensure fair and just punishments.

    As an English teacher you really should know this.

    You are not accused when you are infracted, you are guilty of the violation.
    That's not how things work. What happens when the infraction is reversed because the moderator was wrong? Am I still guilty then or am I no longer guilty? Or am I guilty up until the point where the infraction is reversed, no matter the fact that I never actually committed the underlying offense? You are guilty of something when you have done that thing, not when you are accused of doing it or punished for doing it.

    if someone is tried in the tribunal, it is moderation team/the moderator, not the appellant.
    Uh, yeah, no. That's not how this works. That's not how trials work. What the are you talking about my god.

    If someone is being accused of something and required to put forth a defense that is pretty much the very definition of a trial. How can you sit there and use terms like "tried" and "appellant" as if you're approaching this from a legal/logical mindset and still arrive at the conclusion that the prosecutorial party is somehow the one that is on trial. They are the one who has laid the claim and accusation - the fact that they have to provide evidence for that claim and show that the accused actually committed the offense while the appellant must proffer arguments and evidences to the contrary is sufficient to illustrate that they are not, in fact, the one on trial. The Tribunal is established in a very traditional adversarial style of court and its trivial to understand it's workings.

    forget about the innocence or guilt of the punished user.
    Ex-ing-scuse me? We should ignore whether someone is innocent or guilty of what they're being accused of? ing what?
    Last edited by Akar; August 08, 2022 at 03:02 AM.

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  3. #23

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    It's certainly a guilty until proven innocent process that we have here. No doubt about that. Your punishment is verified before you can ever have a say in it. You can only appeal a decision.
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  4. #24

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    moderation determines if you have broken the rules. If you appeal, the tribunal decides if the moderation has correctly applied the ToS the rules. The appellant is not even required to raise a defense in the tribunal, although he obviously has an opportunity to state why he believes the moderation has acted incorrectly.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Akar View Post
    Notice what that first clause says, "to defend the rights of Members" Now see what the second says "and to ensure fair and just punishment..." Two separate and distinct clauses referring to two separate responsibilities of the tribunal - to defend the rights of members AND to ensure fair and just punishments.

    As an English teacher you really should know this.
    If you are referring to me, I am not an English teacher. I have experience teaching mostly History and Geography.
    Your quotes does not alter the manner by which members are disciplined. Moderators decide if the ToS is violated. They decide the points you "earn" for a violation. There isn't a trial unless you wish to appeal. The Tribunal is dejure appeals process, not a court process by which guilt or innocence is determined. It exist to ensure transparency of the application of the ToS and to ensure that no one is punished unduly. Moderators act as both "police" and "Judges." To take the criminal justice system analogy further, yes, you are "guilty." You have the option, like a convicted person, to appeal that decisions. Appeals courts do ensure that the lower courts were fair and just in their punishments.

  6. #26

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    It's certainly a guilty until proven innocent process that we have here. No doubt about that. Your punishment is verified before you can ever have a say in it. You can only appeal a decision.
    Agreed, which is why the tribunal is so important.

  7. #27
    Sir Adrian's Avatar the Imperishable
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Support but I'm afraid nothing shall come of this.
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  8. #28
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    Can an issued infraction be suspended from a technical perspective?
    Quote Originally Posted by Pontifex Maximus View Post
    Not our problem I think, but yes. Speaking as former Hex.
    Nope - you can only reverse and then re-issue. Basically asking for a free pass when the tribunal isn't functioning:

    Definitely not supporting this.



  9. #29
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    The whole purpose of this is to make sure the tribunal is always functioning.
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  10. #30
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not going crazy - I am crazy. I just go normal every now and then.
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The whole purpose of this is to make sure the tribunal is always functioning.

    Can't see any of that - the OP's sole intent is to regulate what happens if the tribunal isn't functioning.


    Unlike the footnote (#12) about the consul's mandatory presence.
    Last edited by Gigantus; August 09, 2022 at 12:48 PM.



  11. #31

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    The whole purpose of this is to make sure the tribunal is always functioning.
    Quote Originally Posted by Gigantus View Post
    Can't see any of that - the OP's sole intent is to regulate what happens if the tribunal isn't functioning.
    I think Gigantus may be missing the fine point in what Ponti is trying to do and what Adrian pointed out. The suggestion purposefully transfers responsibility to the tribunal and generates pressure for several roles in site management to see that the tribunal is always in place. If their is no place for appealing, there is no punishing (= a temporary free pass). I think this sort of inexplicit purpose is present in many rules and regulations.

  12. #32

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    I really think they don't know what they want.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  13. #33
    Akar's Avatar I am not a clever man
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    The suggestion purposefully transfers responsibility to the tribunal and generates pressure for several roles in site management to see that the tribunal is always in place
    Good.

    If their is no place for appealing, there is no punishing (= a temporary free pass)
    Good.

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  14. #34

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    A free pass means that you do not get punished for it at all. Postponing a verdict on the other hand merely postpones the punishment. It's not a free pass.

    One problematic part about it though is how repeated offenses to be treated. Do they take into account the suspended infraction? Or infract as if the previous one didn't happen at all till the Tribunal case is established?
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  15. #35

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    A free pass means that you do not get punished for it at all. Postponing a verdict on the other hand merely postpones the punishment. It's not a free pass.
    Thank you. I used the term "free pass" and added temporary to it only because Gigantus had called it a free pass and said he is against such. I saw in that the possibility of the same misunderstanding that you are pointing out. Now I see he has edited his message, making it look like I introduced the term into the discussion.

    I think we all agree here now that postponing punishment is no free pass.

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    I really think they don't know what they want.
    To have a functioning tribunal and to avoid the situation where unlucky people cannot exercise their right to an appeal because of reasons outside of their control.
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  17. #37
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Septentrionalis View Post
    Thank you. I used the term "free pass" and added temporary to it only because Gigantus had called it a free pass and said he is against such. I saw in that the possibility of the same misunderstanding that you are pointing out. Now I see he has edited his message, making it look like I introduced the term into the discussion.
    I introduced free pass here - that post isn't edited.

    Get your facts straight before implying stuff.


    Quote Originally Posted by PointOfViewGun View Post
    A free pass means that you do not get punished for it at all. Postponing a verdict on the other hand merely postpones the punishment. It's not a free pass.
    Agreed, I used an ill fitting term. My concern was a delayed action that might thus fail to deter continued behavior that caused the penalty in the first place.

    -----------

    There is one aspect that hasn't been taken into consideration: if continuous offenses by a member cannot be deterred with penalties and their incremental restrictions then moderation will use temporary suspensions. Sure you want to open that door? Because you won't be able to appeal those.

    Never mind that issuing infractions in retrospective can lead to possible suspension as well as they will accumulate immediately - there is no way to back date them.

    Note: temporary suspensions are normally only used for members that have a 'melt down', eg multiple offenses within a short period of time, usually within 2-3 days.
    Last edited by Gigantus; August 09, 2022 at 10:32 PM.



  18. #38
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Perhaps we are going about it the wrong way.
    I am looking at this footnote here.

    2 Should a Tribune recuse themselves, or there is a tie between Tribunes, the other Magistrate respectively votes in their stead, or is called to break the tie. Magistrates are terminated by a unanimous vote of the Tribunes.
    A rule to add.
    If a Tribune is absent or misses a case that Tribune will be removed and the most senior Magistrate will temporarily replace the Tribune until one is appointed. An election will be conducted to temporarily replace the magistrate who was appointed temporary Tribune.
    (The wording can be amended, but you get the gist of it)

    We can add a login requirement, like failure to login "x" time period as well. This should help prevent a catastrophic situation in which both Tribunes fail to show for a case. If the time period is one month, TheDarkKnight would had been replaced.

    In this way, we do not need to have a stay of punishment at all.

  19. #39

    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Adrian View Post
    To have a functioning tribunal and to avoid the situation where unlucky people cannot exercise their right to an appeal because of reasons outside of their control.
    this proposal talks, vaguely, about how to function with an inactive tribunal, it does not talk about how to keep the tribunal active even if there is a tribune missing. By the way, you speak as if the tribunal were a right, something essential for any user, and no, not at all. it is a privilege, a frivolity of the good old days.

    the tribunal only works if there are tribunes; mature and responsible individuals with knowledge (better if through experience as a moderator) of how the terms of service should be applied. Write all the legislation you want, but the tribunal is only saved by available tribunes. Suspended infractions is not an option, and just saying, magistrates acting as tribunes is a farce.
    Last edited by mishkin; August 10, 2022 at 02:56 AM.
    So, because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of my mouth. (Revelation 3:16).

  20. #40
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    Default Re: Tribunal Expediency Act

    Quote Originally Posted by mishkin View Post
    this proposal talks, vaguely, about how to function with an inactive tribunal, it does not talk about how to keep the tribunal active even if there is a tribune missing. By the way, you speak as if the tribunal were a right, something essential for any user, and no, not at all. it is a privilege, a frivolity of the good old days.

    the tribunal only works if there are tribunes; mature and responsible individuals with knowledge (better if through experience as a moderator) of how the terms of service should be applied. Write all the legislation you want, but the tribunal is only saved by available tribunes. Suspended infractions is not an option, and just saying, magistrates acting as tribunes is a farce.
    Like so many things on this site (e.g. citizenship) the Tribunal is unique. Most, if not all sites, do not have such a system.

    The system promotes transparency. Magistrates being elected is in furtherance to that point. Tribunes act as safeguard to errors made by Moderators. I do not think it is necessary that they need to be former moderators. It is about being objective.

    My suggestion above I feel is the better route to take in ensuring the continuity of the system. To be honest, I am not seeing how difficult it is for someone to post, "hey, I can't do this anymore and I need to resign."

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