Siege ram abandoned

[Macaras]

Hello Guys, I noticed long time ago that there is a trick to keep the AI from battering the gate. If the ram is attacked and keep fighting until the first ladder reaches the wall, then the player may withdraw the attacking unit, and all the units of AI mindlessly run to the wall abandoning the ram. I tried some mods and seems that nobody ever fixed it (or I just didn't find the right BAI?)
I was thinking that it may be solved by adding more units in front of the ram, or lowering the speed of the ladders, or maybe there are other ways?

[z3n]

You can check the configuration ai battle file, within the siege section, look at the ladder controls. I dont think you can do very much in there but it may help.

[Macaras]

Thank you. I tried to change the ladder section in battle_config from 1 to 0 for default-run, but no effect at all?

<ladders>
<!-- should run be the default? -->
<default-run>0</default-run>
...

I see the soldiers of AI running no matter what I do.. I have Germanicu5 ReallyBadAI v5.7, there are 5 folders with different AI sets, I changed them all to no run, and still no effect
Is this file loaded on starting the campaign, like campaign_script, or it may be changed during already campaign started ?

[AnthoniusII]

In TGC we merg3ed Germaniu5's lastest patch with XERYX CAI 4.1 ..Despite the fat that units under AI fight with reason that issue has not been solved. AI will follow thise line of actions.

• It attacks with one lader, one ram and one siege tower. AI has 2 more rams in reserve.
• If player stops all 3 assaulting machines AI will turn to the 1st reserve Ram .
• If Player stops that advance of 2nd Ram AI will resume with teh 3rd.
• If all rams will stop AI will turn to ladders and later to siege tower with this order. The AI thought in many mods seam to use modified CAI that allows it to "protect' their advancing siege equipement. In TGC we have spearman in the flanks and cavalry purcuing player's cavalry that tries to reach the siege engines. That is the best ever have achieved so far in my knowlege.

[Macaras]

Thanks Antonius, if I understood it correctly, the other rams after the first one are only involved if the ladders are also stopped by the player. It seems to me that to solve this problem on the level of AI, it would need some person with a lot of knowledge, but there are some ways to improve the situation with some easy steps (?) I found myself ignorant completely though, looking through Germanicus' scripts and having no idea where is he taking formation from.. I was thinking that just putting the ladders farther from the walls, make them slower and adding an additional unit in front of the first ram would make stopping it very costly and difficult for the player. It could be so easy - changing few coordinates in the formation of units (one unit on front of the ram, and ladders farther), but I guess its not

[AnthoniusII]

I believe its the game's lomitation that series of actions and no one can do more than that. Newer TW games have worst siege AI than the one i described and modders have done little to improve because again its all about game's limitations.

[z3n]

Honestly even after learning programming for some time over the years, I still to this day have no idea what Germanicu5 was trying to do with his scripts. To my understanding, the main movers in the scripts would be the GTA attack plans or defend plans; nothing else really matters as much as that. There are maybe 4 or 5 places the GTA attack and defend plans were used in the whole 30'000 line script (maybe I exaggerate but I remember a ton of lines). I think his goal was to have the whole army react based on what individual units were facing, but I don't think it's viable given such extreme limitations with the number of GTA attack plans and defend.

Check this code and modify it in your config ai battle. Maybe you will be able to achieve the results you want this way. Also, some files are not save game compatible, maybe config ai battle and battle config are unmodifiable during saves.

        
<attack-settlement>
            <detachment>
                <engine-collection>
                    <!-- when stealing an engine, prioritise being out of combat over distance -->
                    <prioritise-out-of-combat>1</prioritise-out-of-combat>
                </engine-collection>
                <commit>
                    <!-- commit sufficient forces to outnumber the enemy by this ratio -->
                    <strength-ratio>1.6</strength-ratio>
                </commit>
                <perimeter-attack>
                    <termination-criteria>
                        <enemy-in-perimeter>0.25</enemy-in-perimeter>
                    </termination-criteria>
                </perimeter-attack>
                <max-plaza-assault-groups>5</max-plaza-assault-groups>
                <units-per-plaza-assault-group>4</units-per-plaza-assault-group>
                <artillery-times>
                    <!-- successful assaults performed for at least 1 minute -->
                    <minimum>1.0</minimum>
                    
                    <!-- don't prolong the bombardment longer than 6 minutes if we have no targets left -->
                    <maximum>6.0</maximum>
                    
                    <!-- stall test is a moving average that checks if any artillery is active (moving/firing/reloading) each tick -->
                    <stall-test>
                        <!-- minimum number of ticks to collect before detecting a stall -->
                        <minimum-samples>900</minimum-samples>
                        
                        <!-- track at most this number of samples -->
                        <maximum-samples>1200</maximum-samples>
                        
                        <!-- if the artillery has be inactive for at least 75% of its time -->
                        <limit>0.5</limit>
                    </stall-test>
                </artillery-times>
            </detachment>
            <tactics>
                <assault-gate>
                    <inside-position-dist>25</inside-position-dist>
                    <formation>ai_settlement_assault_gate</formation>
                </assault-gate>
                <reform>
                    <offset>30</offset>
                    <formation>ai_settlement_attack_reform</formation>
                    <percentage-formed>10</percentage-formed>
                    <advance-timer>1.0</advance-timer>
                    <siege-equipment-advance-timer>6.0</siege-equipment-advance-timer>
                </reform>
                <capture-plaza>
                    <reform-dist>120</reform-dist>
                </capture-plaza>
            </tactics>
        </attack-settlement>

[bitterhowl]

As I wrote previously - G5 system made for controlling every single unit and give orders manually to each unit during the battle.

Since M2 engine hasn't access to unit after labelling it with campaign_script I doubt that any GTA plan applicable to army until units aren't unlabeled.

[stevietheconquer]

i have played in the past the bellum mod the italian mod, and their i saw always(if i remember good) that units went for the ram, till there were no rams anymore or no units anymore to go to the ram, only thier pathfinding was a mess sometimes(but not from the units with the ram they always went to destroy the gate).maybe you can check those files to discover the secret of the ram thing.

[Macaras]

Hi Stevie, somehow I didn't noticed your answer before - thank you! I downloaded the files and will try to see if it works!

[z3n]

Please post your findings if you find anything out.

[stevietheconquer]

in my private mod I am now testing in battle, and for the first time I have managed to get the enemy troops to man a new ram and send them to the gate to destroy them (the first ram of the enemy was destroyed) but there must be many infantry men, after the enemy troops lost their ram, there were two regiments of foot soldiers walking towards a new ram, and one of those units took the ram and went to the gate, the other unit went to the ladders as there was only 1 ram left..even this is mine first battle that was succeeded, so i have to test it more, but i used already some other numbers, then the reaction of the enemy troops was different.

the major changed i maded, some from bellum mod, and from this great aimod are here :

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

<melee-manager> <attack-dist-multiplier>3.0</attack-dist-multiplier>

<open>
<infantry>
<max-engage-dist>
<easy>540</easy>
<medium>540</medium>
<hard>540</hard>
<very_hard>540</very_hard>
</max-engage-dist>



<attack-brace>
<distance>540</distance>
<time-to-change-formation>2.0</time-to-change-formation>
<time-to-phalanx>3</time-to-phalanx>
<time-to-schiltrom>8</time-to-schiltrom>
</attack-brace>


<assault-gate>
<inside-position-dist>90</inside-position-dist>
<formation>ai_settlement_assault_gate</formation>
</assault-gate>

i uploaded mine battle ai(maybe you need all mine ai files like the pathfinding and formations), made by bitterhowl mostly, and some changes by me and then the changes from bellum and from this ai mod, but i think the most inportend one is the assault gate numbers.and the infantry high high attack values so they can walk in a big area.
the battle ai i use:config-ai-battle.rar

edit:notice that i use no battle scripts in campaign_script

some pic:

[stevietheconquer]

well the first time was lucky strike lol, i think that they only go for another ram if the first ram is totaly distroyed.sometimes i saw them go for a new ram when the first ram was left alone, but the the unit stood with the ram and could not move anymore, the captain of that unit was doin crazy then lol; so i guess the only thing that can make it could by a battle script in the campaign_script.

one thing i was wondering is when the enemy ai attacks your settlement/castle and a another enemy army is close but is not besieging the settlement, it will fight beside that enemy army, if the attacking enemy army got ladders against the wall and has not breached the gate, that allied army does not goes to the ladders to go too the settlement walls to enter the settelment, the question is why???


edit sorry for mine bad english lol.

[Macaras]

Thank you Stevie for looking into this problem. I was playing few sieges in Belum Crucis and unfortunately its the same thing, the moment the ladder reaches the wall and other siege machines are stopped, the AI just runs crowding to the one that is already there. I think I will give up on the idea of fixing it, as i also found Germanicus speaking about this in his forum and saying that once AI gets a passage through the walls, even with just one ladder there is no way to make him use the siege machines again.. I think it was somewhere around this post:

https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=1#post5190757

Maybe a way to deal with the player sallying out too much is to lower drastically the morale when going out of the walls? I would need to investigate it, I don't know if its even possible. Or another way would be to change the formation and put too units of spearmen in front of the ram in such a distance that it becomes not worth to attack the ram's unit, because first there are two other that need to be fought..

Regarding to the reinforce armies - its a little bit connected with the same problem, because they start moving only when the gate is broken. Otherwise just wait for the first army to fight on its own. I don't know why, it seems like that could be fixed by someone who knows the BAI very well..

[stevietheconquer]

mostly when i get attacked, the enemy used more then one ladder and more siege towers, depends on how big the army is, but it starts always with one ram(and some in the background reserve rams), the ladders seems to work good and the siegetowers are working very good too, the pathfinding is very good with the battle ai i use now, only the rams goes sometimes wrong(maybe with a fortress they will use the ram again?), i always attack the ram with 1 unit, so it does not destroys the gate.but i must say that i test mine battles in a campaign at turn 366, getting a lot of attacks from mine enemies, from your great campaign ai, lost some battles and that city and had to reconquer it two times lol.


maybe you can try mine whole battle ai(a mix from other battleai's even from this great ai) and you can try it, but i use no battle campaign_scripts, you have to delete your battle_script if there is one..download:battleaicomplete.rar it not goes to one ladders but use more ladders and siege towers

edit:maybe i have to start a new campaign to see if it changed something.

and it seems that higher the <attack-brace> will move some units from the allied army, but have too fight more enemies with and allied army, in a settlement battle.

[stevietheconquer]

i will start a new campaign with the battleaicomplete files and the battle_script from skynet battle ai in campaign_script and will see if they can work together as one.

[stevietheconquer]

seems this battle ai and the battle ai i use from post 12, do not work always good together, but i see it was not build for it so now i use the only the battleai from post 12 and deleted the battle scripts in the campaign_script.now i have some battles won and some battles lost, will see how it works in siege battles.


the battleai from post 12:TrueGeneral: Aimless Steel
from bitterhowl,formations I use are made by GrandViz, he is the best. Pathfinding made by z3n, as well as initial .xmls. and some changes by stevietheconquerer, and some numbers they use in the battle ai from bellum.i choose quicker battles so the units will do more damage, as for EB the unit do less damage and so you have longer battles, but i think i have already long enough battles. general and cavalry will be less suicidel and cavalry will if they are with enough, charge you were you are weak lol.

edit;sorry for mine bad english.

[Macaras]

Hi guys, I came back to this topic - in the end it made me to start learning battle ai . I never found out how to make ai pick up abandoned ram, but I came out with this idea - units rout when sallying out in the very beginning of defending the settlement. It is very difficult I think to find a method to trigger routing when the unit goes out of the walls, one experienced modder said on discord - impossible. So I tried a different approach - making units rout only in the time between the start of the battle and when the first enemy unit enters the wall. Basically this type of attack is a suicide for the unit - goes out of the safety of the walls to be decimated, the only purpose is that it stops the ram for enough time to make the ladders reach the walls, so that ai gets confused and abandon the ram. So I guess if the units like this rout its close to what would happen in reality.
Below is the script, if you want to take some time and analyze it and maybe point out some possible scenarios when it doesn't work - that would be great.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

; This script is to make more difficult attacking siege machines in the begining of the ; siege battle when the player is defending.
; The units will rout until some conditions are met.
; when the counter stop_routing is set to 1 - this script is no more executed through the whole battle 
; The conditions that stops routing are:
; - ram reached the gate
; - the ladder/tower docks walls and a little waiting time passed
; - the walls are captured
; - a unit on the walls is engaged in fighting.
; It is possible that the enemy is already on the wall, and ram didn't get to the gate. 
; In this case ai will abandon the ram if attacked, unless it is very close to the gate already.
; In any case this script adds some difficulty to early sally out to attack the siege engines
; the units that routs sometimes allow the enemy to sneak inside the gate - additional risk for the player.   


monitor_event BattlePlayerUnitRouts TrueCondition
    and BattlePlayerUnitOnWalls
        log -siege_script- Unit Routs on walls
;    unit_group_enable_automation army2 true
end_monitor    


monitor_event BattlePlayerUnitRouts TrueCondition
    and ! BattlePlayerUnitOnWalls
        log -siege_script- Unit Routs not on walls
end_monitor    


monitor_event BattleGatesAttackedByEnemyEngine TrueCondition
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and I_CompareCounter gates_attacked = 0
    set_counter gates_attacked 1 
    set_counter s_gear_attacked 0
    set_counter stop_routing 1
end_monitor


monitor_event BattleWallsCaptured TrueCondition
and I_CompareCounter gates_attacked = 0
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
    set_counter gates_attacked 1 
    set_counter s_gear_attacked 0
    set_counter stop_routing 1
end_monitor


monitor_event BattleEngineUnmanned TrueCondition
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and I_CompareCounter gates_attacked = 0
    set_counter gates_attacked 1 
    set_counter s_gear_attacked 0
    log -siege_script- BattleEngineUnmanned - automation?
end_monitor


;;;; Trigger when siege engine docks the wall, wait because it takes a while for the unit to climb the ladder --------------


monitor_event BattleSiegeEngineDocksWall TrueCondition
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and I_CompareCounter enemy_on_walls 0
    log -siege_script- BattleSiegeEngineDocksWall before battle_wait 
    battle_wait 35
    set_counter enemy_on_walls 1 
    log -siege_script- Enemy_on_Walls =1 BattleSiegeEngineDocksWall after battle_wait 
    set_counter stop_routing 1
end_monitor


;;;; Enemy attacks player ------------------------------------------------


monitor_event BattleEnemyUnitAttacksPlayerUnit BattleIsMeleeAttack
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and ! BattlePlayerUnitOnWalls
    log always -siege_script- BattleEnemyUnitAttacksPlayerUnit not on walls 
    set_counter s_gear_attacked 1
end_monitor


monitor_event BattleEnemyUnitAttacksPlayerUnit BattleIsMeleeAttack
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and BattlePlayerUnitOnWalls
    log always -siege_script-  Unit on walls attacked
    set_counter enemy_on_walls 1
    set_counter stop_routing 1
end_monitor


monitor_event BattleEnemyUnitAttacksPlayerUnit BattleIsMeleeAttack
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and ! BattleEnemyUnitOnWalls
        log -siege_script- BattleEnemyUnitAttacksPlayerUnit enemy unit not on walls
        set_counter s_gear_attacked 1
end_monitor    




;;;; Player attacks enemy - triggers on click -----------------------------------------


monitor_event BattlePlayerUnitAttacksEnemyUnit TrueCondition
and I_BattleIsSiegeBattle
and ! I_BattlePlayerArmyIsAttacker
and BattleIsMeleeAttack
and ! BattlePlayerUnitOnWalls
and ! BattleEnemyUnitOnWalls
and BattleEnemyUnitSpecialAbilitySupported = drop_engines 
        log -siege_script- PlayerUnit attacks enemy unit with drop_engines ability
        set_counter s_gear_attacked 1
end_monitor    


;;;; Makes player units rout for a moment -----------------------------------------


monitor_conditions I_CompareCounter s_gear_attacked = 1
and I_CompareCounter stop_routing = 0
and I_CompareCounter gates_attacked = 0
and I_CompareCounter enemy_on_walls = 0


    if I_CompareCounter player_unit_count > 0
        if I_IsUnitEngaged a1u1
            unit_set_morale a1u1 routing
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit1 set_morale routing
            battle_wait 30
            unit_set_morale a1u1 wavering
            unit_unset_morale a1u1
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit1 unset_morale
        end_if
    end_if
    if I_CompareCounter player_unit_count > 1
        if I_IsUnitEngaged a1u2
            unit_set_morale a1u2 routing
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit2 set_morale routing
            battle_wait 30
            unit_set_morale a1u2 wavering
            unit_unset_morale a1u2
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit2 unset_morale
        end_if
    end_if
    if I_CompareCounter player_unit_count > 2
        if I_IsUnitEngaged a1u3
            unit_set_morale a1u3 routing
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit3 set_morale routing
            battle_wait 30
            unit_set_morale a1u3 wavering
            unit_unset_morale a1u3
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit3 unset_morale
        end_if
    end_if
        if I_CompareCounter player_unit_count > 3
        if I_IsUnitEngaged a1u4
            unit_set_morale a1u4 routing
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit4 set_morale routing
            battle_wait 30
            unit_set_morale a1u4 wavering
            unit_unset_morale a1u4
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit4 unset_morale
        end_if
    end_if
        if I_CompareCounter player_unit_count > 4
        if I_IsUnitEngaged a1u5
            unit_set_morale a1u5 routing
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit5 set_morale routing
            battle_wait 30
            unit_set_morale a1u5 wavering
            unit_unset_morale a1u5
            log -siege_script- PlayerUnit5 unset_morale
        end_if
    end_if
end_monitor

Right now for the purpose of testing it works just for 5 units in the army, but I guess it will be easy to make it 20.. Also no idea how will it work if there are more armies.
Not all the monitors are necessary and there is a lot of log infos - that was just for me, so I know what is happening.
Now what is missing is to slow down the ladders or somehow to move them further in the starting formation- that would improve the efficiency of this method. I tried to do this before but never managed, any changes in formations file didn't bring any effect in the battle (?).

[bitterhowl]

Great findings!

It's pretty easy to make unit rout - check if any ai unit is in radius with player's unit before ram is docked to the wall.

But I think not so many players will agree with this method (I can compare with some my ideas in BAI, testers are not agree too). Instead this I suggest you to make other ai units protecting ram-carriers. So you can match a moment when player's unit goes through the gates and command non-carrier units to attack closest unit. So all ai army will point sally out unit.

As for routing player's units - I think we can make such possibility in some cases, for example if player's army has no general or if ai army has too many ranged units - in this case it understandable that soldiers are afraid to leave the settlement

[Macaras]

As for routing player's units - I think we can make such possibility in some cases, for example if player's army has no general or if ai army has too many ranged units - in this case it understandable that soldiers are afraid to leave the settlement

Exactly, that was also my idea, I would say ranged units and maybe also mounted units, as cavalry moves fast.

But I think not so many players will agree with this method (I can compare with some my ideas in BAI, testers are not agree too). Instead this I suggest you to make other ai units protecting ram-carriers.

This may be difficult, I will see how to do it.. Also I think maybe if the units that have special ability to drop things (which are carrying the siege engines) actually will drop all the ladders and towers and run to attack the player unit, maybe it's even better, provided that they will pick it up later.. Maybe it will happen automatically. I have to check it.

So you can match a moment when player's unit goes through the gates and command non-carrier units to attack closest unit. So all ai army will point sally out unit.

Is it possible to check if the unit went through the gates? I didn't see any options for this in docudemons?

And I have one more questions - how is it that regardless of what I change in the descr_formations_ai, the siege engines are always right in the front? What I did was to switch the types of units, so the ladders were only an option for the blocks that were behind. Then I start the custom battle - they are right there in the front again!? But in the g5 script that I am using as a base, there is nothing about changing the initial positions in the siege I think. So where does it come from, is it hard coded that the siege machines are always in the front?