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Thread: Siege ram abandoned

  1. #1

    Default Siege ram abandoned

    Hello Guys, I noticed long time ago that there is a trick to keep the AI from battering the gate. If the ram is attacked and keep fighting until the first ladder reaches the wall, then the player may withdraw the attacking unit, and all the units of AI mindlessly run to the wall abandoning the ram. I tried some mods and seems that nobody ever fixed it (or I just didn't find the right BAI?)
    I was thinking that it may be solved by adding more units in front of the ram, or lowering the speed of the ladders, or maybe there are other ways?

  2. #2
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    You can check the configuration ai battle file, within the siege section, look at the ladder controls. I dont think you can do very much in there but it may help.
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  3. #3

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Thank you. I tried to change the ladder section in battle_config from 1 to 0 for default-run, but no effect at all?

    <ladders>
    <!-- should run be the default? -->
    <default-run>0</default-run>
    ...

    I see the soldiers of AI running no matter what I do.. I have Germanicu5 ReallyBadAI v5.7, there are 5 folders with different AI sets, I changed them all to no run, and still no effect
    Is this file loaded on starting the campaign, like campaign_script, or it may be changed during already campaign started ?

  4. #4
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    In TGC we merg3ed Germaniu5's lastest patch with XERYX CAI 4.1 ..Despite the fat that units under AI fight with reason that issue has not been solved. AI will follow thise line of actions.
    • It attacks with one lader, one ram and one siege tower. AI has 2 more rams in reserve.
    • If player stops all 3 assaulting machines AI will turn to the 1st reserve Ram .
    • If Player stops that advance of 2nd Ram AI will resume with teh 3rd.
    • If all rams will stop AI will turn to ladders and later to siege tower with this order. The AI thought in many mods seam to use modified CAI that allows it to "protect' their advancing siege equipement. In TGC we have spearman in the flanks and cavalry purcuing player's cavalry that tries to reach the siege engines. That is the best ever have achieved so far in my knowlege.
    The "THE GREAT CONFLICTS MOD" is DEAD. FAREWELL .
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.

  5. #5

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Thanks Antonius, if I understood it correctly, the other rams after the first one are only involved if the ladders are also stopped by the player. It seems to me that to solve this problem on the level of AI, it would need some person with a lot of knowledge, but there are some ways to improve the situation with some easy steps (?) I found myself ignorant completely though, looking through Germanicus' scripts and having no idea where is he taking formation from.. I was thinking that just putting the ladders farther from the walls, make them slower and adding an additional unit in front of the first ram would make stopping it very costly and difficult for the player. It could be so easy - changing few coordinates in the formation of units (one unit on front of the ram, and ladders farther), but I guess its not
    Last edited by Macaras; July 29, 2022 at 07:47 AM.

  6. #6
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    I believe its the game's lomitation that series of actions and no one can do more than that. Newer TW games have worst siege AI than the one i described and modders have done little to improve because again its all about game's limitations.
    The "THE GREAT CONFLICTS MOD" is DEAD. FAREWELL .
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.

  7. #7
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Honestly even after learning programming for some time over the years, I still to this day have no idea what Germanicu5 was trying to do with his scripts. To my understanding, the main movers in the scripts would be the GTA attack plans or defend plans; nothing else really matters as much as that. There are maybe 4 or 5 places the GTA attack and defend plans were used in the whole 30'000 line script (maybe I exaggerate but I remember a ton of lines). I think his goal was to have the whole army react based on what individual units were facing, but I don't think it's viable given such extreme limitations with the number of GTA attack plans and defend.

    Check this code and modify it in your config ai battle. Maybe you will be able to achieve the results you want this way. Also, some files are not save game compatible, maybe config ai battle and battle config are unmodifiable during saves.

    Code:
            
    <attack-settlement>
                <detachment>
                    <engine-collection>
                        <!-- when stealing an engine, prioritise being out of combat over distance -->
                        <prioritise-out-of-combat>1</prioritise-out-of-combat>
                    </engine-collection>
                    <commit>
                        <!-- commit sufficient forces to outnumber the enemy by this ratio -->
                        <strength-ratio>1.6</strength-ratio>
                    </commit>
                    <perimeter-attack>
                        <termination-criteria>
                            <enemy-in-perimeter>0.25</enemy-in-perimeter>
                        </termination-criteria>
                    </perimeter-attack>
                    <max-plaza-assault-groups>5</max-plaza-assault-groups>
                    <units-per-plaza-assault-group>4</units-per-plaza-assault-group>
                    <artillery-times>
                        <!-- successful assaults performed for at least 1 minute -->
                        <minimum>1.0</minimum>
                        
                        <!-- don't prolong the bombardment longer than 6 minutes if we have no targets left -->
                        <maximum>6.0</maximum>
                        
                        <!-- stall test is a moving average that checks if any artillery is active (moving/firing/reloading) each tick -->
                        <stall-test>
                            <!-- minimum number of ticks to collect before detecting a stall -->
                            <minimum-samples>900</minimum-samples>
                            
                            <!-- track at most this number of samples -->
                            <maximum-samples>1200</maximum-samples>
                            
                            <!-- if the artillery has be inactive for at least 75% of its time -->
                            <limit>0.5</limit>
                        </stall-test>
                    </artillery-times>
                </detachment>
                <tactics>
                    <assault-gate>
                        <inside-position-dist>25</inside-position-dist>
                        <formation>ai_settlement_assault_gate</formation>
                    </assault-gate>
                    <reform>
                        <offset>30</offset>
                        <formation>ai_settlement_attack_reform</formation>
                        <percentage-formed>10</percentage-formed>
                        <advance-timer>1.0</advance-timer>
                        <siege-equipment-advance-timer>6.0</siege-equipment-advance-timer>
                    </reform>
                    <capture-plaza>
                        <reform-dist>120</reform-dist>
                    </capture-plaza>
                </tactics>
            </attack-settlement>
    Last edited by z3n; July 29, 2022 at 08:24 PM.
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  8. #8
    bitterhowl's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    As I wrote previously - G5 system made for controlling every single unit and give orders manually to each unit during the battle.

    Since M2 engine hasn't access to unit after labelling it with campaign_script I doubt that any GTA plan applicable to army until units aren't unlabeled.

    My sister, do you still recall the blue Hasan and Khalkhin-Gol?
    Russian warship is winning. Proofs needed? Go find yourself!

  9. #9

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    i have played in the past the bellum mod the italian mod, and their i saw always(if i remember good) that units went for the ram, till there were no rams anymore or no units anymore to go to the ram, only thier pathfinding was a mess sometimes(but not from the units with the ram they always went to destroy the gate).maybe you can check those files to discover the secret of the ram thing.
    Attached Files Attached Files
    Last edited by stevietheconquer; September 28, 2022 at 03:01 PM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Hi Stevie, somehow I didn't noticed your answer before - thank you! I downloaded the files and will try to see if it works!

  11. #11
    z3n's Avatar State of Mind
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    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Please post your findings if you find anything out.
    The AI Workshop Creator
    Europa Barbaroum II AI/Game Mechanics Developer
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  12. #12

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    in my private mod I am now testing in battle, and for the first time I have managed to get the enemy troops to man a new ram and send them to the gate to destroy them (the first ram of the enemy was destroyed) but there must be many infantry men, after the enemy troops lost their ram, there were two regiments of foot soldiers walking towards a new ram, and one of those units took the ram and went to the gate, the other unit went to the ladders as there was only 1 ram left..even this is mine first battle that was succeeded, so i have to test it more, but i used already some other numbers, then the reaction of the enemy troops was different.

    the major changed i maded, some from bellum mod, and from this great aimod are here :
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    <melee-manager> <attack-dist-multiplier>3.0</attack-dist-multiplier>

    <open>
    <infantry>
    <max-engage-dist>
    <easy>540</easy>
    <medium>540</medium>
    <hard>540</hard>
    <very_hard>540</very_hard>
    </max-engage-dist>



    <attack-brace>
    <distance>540</distance>
    <time-to-change-formation>2.0</time-to-change-formation>
    <time-to-phalanx>3</time-to-phalanx>
    <time-to-schiltrom>8</time-to-schiltrom>
    </attack-brace>


    <assault-gate>
    <inside-position-dist>90</inside-position-dist>
    <formation>ai_settlement_assault_gate</formation>
    </assault-gate>


    i uploaded mine battle ai(maybe you need all mine ai files like the pathfinding and formations), made by bitterhowl mostly, and some changes by me and then the changes from bellum and from this ai mod, but i think the most inportend one is the assault gate numbers.and the infantry high high attack values so they can walk in a big area.
    the battle ai i use:config-ai-battle.rar

    edit:notice that i use no battle scripts in campaign_script

    some pic:
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 0002.jpg  
    Last edited by stevietheconquer; November 03, 2022 at 05:04 PM.
    getting older

  13. #13

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    well the first time was lucky strike lol, i think that they only go for another ram if the first ram is totaly distroyed.sometimes i saw them go for a new ram when the first ram was left alone, but the the unit stood with the ram and could not move anymore, the captain of that unit was doin crazy then lol; so i guess the only thing that can make it could by a battle script in the campaign_script.

    one thing i was wondering is when the enemy ai attacks your settlement/castle and a another enemy army is close but is not besieging the settlement, it will fight beside that enemy army, if the attacking enemy army got ladders against the wall and has not breached the gate, that allied army does not goes to the ladders to go too the settlement walls to enter the settelment, the question is why???


    edit sorry for mine bad english lol.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    Thank you Stevie for looking into this problem. I was playing few sieges in Belum Crucis and unfortunately its the same thing, the moment the ladder reaches the wall and other siege machines are stopped, the AI just runs crowding to the one that is already there. I think I will give up on the idea of fixing it, as i also found Germanicus speaking about this in his forum and saying that once AI gets a passage through the walls, even with just one ladder there is no way to make him use the siege machines again.. I think it was somewhere around this post:

    https://www.twcenter.net/forums/show...=1#post5190757

    Maybe a way to deal with the player sallying out too much is to lower drastically the morale when going out of the walls? I would need to investigate it, I don't know if its even possible. Or another way would be to change the formation and put too units of spearmen in front of the ram in such a distance that it becomes not worth to attack the ram's unit, because first there are two other that need to be fought..

    Regarding to the reinforce armies - its a little bit connected with the same problem, because they start moving only when the gate is broken. Otherwise just wait for the first army to fight on its own. I don't know why, it seems like that could be fixed by someone who knows the BAI very well..

  15. #15

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    mostly when i get attacked, the enemy used more then one ladder and more siege towers, depends on how big the army is, but it starts always with one ram(and some in the background reserve rams), the ladders seems to work good and the siegetowers are working very good too, the pathfinding is very good with the battle ai i use now, only the rams goes sometimes wrong(maybe with a fortress they will use the ram again?), i always attack the ram with 1 unit, so it does not destroys the gate.but i must say that i test mine battles in a campaign at turn 366, getting a lot of attacks from mine enemies, from your great campaign ai, lost some battles and that city and had to reconquer it two times lol.


    maybe you can try mine whole battle ai(a mix from other battleai's even from this great ai) and you can try it, but i use no battle campaign_scripts, you have to delete your battle_script if there is one..download:battleaicomplete.rar it not goes to one ladders but use more ladders and siege towers

    edit:maybe i have to start a new campaign to see if it changed something.

    and it seems that higher the <attack-brace> will move some units from the allied army, but have too fight more enemies with and allied army, in a settlement battle.
    Last edited by stevietheconquer; November 08, 2022 at 03:54 PM.
    getting older

  16. #16

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    i will start a new campaign with the battleaicomplete files and the battle_script from skynet battle ai in campaign_script and will see if they can work together as one.
    getting older

  17. #17

    Default Re: Siege ram abandoned

    seems this battle ai and the battle ai i use from post 12, do not work always good together, but i see it was not build for it so now i use the only the battleai from post 12 and deleted the battle scripts in the campaign_script.now i have some battles won and some battles lost, will see how it works in siege battles.


    the battleai from post 12:TrueGeneral: Aimless Steel
    from bitterhowl,formations I use are made by GrandViz, he is the best. Pathfinding made by z3n, as well as initial .xmls. and some changes by stevietheconquerer, and some numbers they use in the battle ai from bellum.i choose quicker battles so the units will do more damage, as for EB the unit do less damage and so you have longer battles, but i think i have already long enough battles. general and cavalry will be less suicidel and cavalry will if they are with enough, charge you were you are weak lol.

    edit;sorry for mine bad english.
    Last edited by stevietheconquer; November 26, 2022 at 05:40 PM.
    getting older

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