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Thread: The Islamic dilemma

  1. #1
    Axalon's Avatar She-Hulk wills it!
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    Default The Islamic dilemma

    Traditionally, most Muslims declare that the Bible has been corrupted, and that the Christian God is a false God. This mostly due to the fact that the Bible contradicts several core ideas in Islamic doctrine such as the oneness of God (the idea of the Trinity) and that Jesus never died on the cross (the idea of Jesus died on the cross) and so forth.

    All the same, the Koran(s) – the supreme book(s) of Islam - still commands Muslims to declare that their Islamic God, is the same God as the Christian have, and to this God they submit (sura 29:46). The Koran(s) also states that the Torah and gospel are revealed by the same God, as guidance for mankind. And those who disbelieve in these revelations (in the Torah and the gospel) will be severely punished by God (sura 3:3-4). The Koran further claims that Gods words can not be changed (sura 18:27), this while both the Torah and gospel are recognized as revealed by God as well. Implicitly that means that they can not be changed either (as they are then the words of God too). The Koran also claims that those (people) who do follow the words of God (in the Torah and the gospel) will be the successful/fortunate ones (sura 7:157). Furthermore, the Koran commands that the people of the gospel (Christians) should and must judge things by the gospel (sura 5:47) - otherwise they would be disobedient to God. This is further reinforced in sura 5:68 in which the Koran declares "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." Despite the fact that the Koran and Islam is in clear conflict with the gospel, as exemplified above.

    Once we apply the Koran(s) claims and commands together - we are ultimately forced conclude that Islam is false (because it contradicts the scriptures), if we judge things by the gospel, as instructed. The only other possible alternative here is then that the gospel is not the word of God and is thus false - in such a case, we are still forced to conclude Islam is false as it clearly affirms the authority of the same. This makes Islam an unsustainable and absurd proposition, and as a result it implodes (in terms of credibility). This sums up the circumstance of what has been called the “the Islamic dilemma” essentially. As, no matter what we do, we are forced to the conclusion that Islam is false, due to a series of claims and commands of the Koran (regarding the Torah and the gospel).


    • How does one deal with this absurd circumstance in Islam?
    • What would you do, facing this dilemma?

    The details and relevant passages (for the Islamic dilemma) are found in sura 29:46, 3:3-4, 18:27, 7:157, 5:47, 5:68 and 10:94.
    For excellent commentary and further explanation of the details of the Islamic dilemma, see video.




    Check it out and tell me what you think of this dilemma...

    - A
    Last edited by Abdülmecid I; May 19, 2022 at 04:28 AM. Reason: Updated.

  2. #2

    Default Re: The Islamic Dilemma...

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  3. #3

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    The Koran(s) also states that the Torah and gospel are revealed by the same God, as guidance for mankind. And those who disbelieve in these revelations (in the Torah and the gospel) will be severely punished by God (sura 3:3-4). The Koran further claims that Gods words can not be changed (sura 18:27), this while both the Torah and gospel are recognized as revealed by God as well. Implicitly that means that they can not be changed either (as they are then the words of God too).
    I take it you assume Muslims think that if you take a Sharpie and try to cross out words on a printed Quran you will get smiten? Or that the Gospel the Quran refers to is the Bible you can buy at Walmart?
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  4. #4

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma.

    Quote Originally Posted by Axalon View Post
    Traditionally, most Muslims declare that the Bible has been corrupted, and that the Christian God is a false God. This mostly due to the fact that the Bible contradicts several core ideas in Islamic doctrine such as the oneness of God (the idea of the Trinity) and that Jesus never died on the cross (the idea of Jesus died on the cross) and so forth.

    All the same, the Koran(s) – the supreme book(s) of Islam - still commands Muslims to declare that their Islamic God, is the same God as the Christian have, and to this God they submit (sura 29:46). The Koran(s) also states that the Torah and gospel are revealed by the same God, as guidance for mankind. And those who disbelieve in these revelations (in the Torah and the gospel) will be severely punished by God (sura 3:3-4). The Koran further claims that Gods words can not be changed (sura 18:27), this while both the Torah and gospel are recognized as revealed by God as well. Implicitly that means that they can not be changed either (as they are then the words of God too). The Koran also claims that those (people) who do follow the words of God (in the Torah and the gospel) will be the successful/fortunate ones (sura 7:157). Furthermore, the Koran commands that the people of the gospel (Christians) should and must judge things by the gospel (sura 5:47) - otherwise they would be disobedient to God. This is further reinforced in sura 5:68 in which the Koran declares "O People of the Scripture, you are [standing] on nothing until you uphold [the law of] the Torah, the Gospel, and what has been revealed to you from your Lord." Despite the fact that the Koran and Islam is in clear conflict with the gospel, as exemplified above.

    Once we apply the Koran(s) claims and commands together - we are ultimately forced conclude that Islam is false (because it contradicts the scriptures), if we judge things by the gospel, as instructed. The only other possible alternative here is then that the gospel is not the word of God and is thus false - in such a case, we are still forced to conclude Islam is false as it clearly affirms the authority of the same. This makes Islam an unsustainable and absurd proposition, and as a result it implodes (in terms of credibility). This sums up the circumstance of what has been called the “the Islamic dilemma” essentially. As, no matter what we do, we are forced to the conclusion that Islam is false, due to a series of claims and commands of the Koran (regarding the Torah and the gospel).


    • How does one deal with this absurd circumstance in Islam?
    • What would you do, facing this dilemma?
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

    The details and relevant passages (for the Islamic dilemma) are found in sura 29:46, 3:3-4, 18:27, 7:157, 5:47, 5:68 and 10:94.
    For excellent commentary and further explanation of the details of the Islamic dilemma, see video.




    Check it out and tell me what you think of this dilemma...

    - A
    The 'historical' development seems to be that the initial (ca. first three centuries or so of Islam) claim of biblical 'corruption' (tahrif) was in how Jews and Christians interpreted or applied their scripture (tahrif al-mana).
    That the text of the bible itself was corrupt (tahrif al-nass) started to be popularized in the 11th century AD with Ibn Hazm's polemics, presumably after Muslims became more familiar with what the bible actually said, and how the (apocryphal, non/extra-canonical) sources the koran drew from were not accepted.
    Last edited by Infidel144; June 04, 2022 at 05:50 AM.

  5. #5
    chriscase's Avatar Chairman Miao
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    FWIW I think the supposed "dilemma" is presented in an entirely overblown and silly way.

    It's standard teleology: Whatever happened leading up to now was either a brilliant precursor or a false start to making us what we are now. In religious terms it means something along the lines of "God was always with us but no one saw it completely clearly until <insert your brand> figured it all out / was blessed with divine insight." Modern religions like the Unitarian Universalists take this to an almost absurd extreme.

    Of course telelogical thinking ought to be regarded with suspicion. Aside from the obvious selfishness of this point of view, it seems unlikely that the history of the entire species - indeed, life itself - is only to serve as precursor to our current exalted state. One suspects many societies have come and gone with little to no relation to us, and that those people deserve to be understood and appreciated for who they were in their own right.

    Regardless, nitpicking in old holy books is not a fruitful way to go about debunking this approach in my view. The fact that one can find contradictions is hardly surprising or particularly meaningful.
    Last edited by chriscase; July 13, 2022 at 09:43 AM.

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    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    In fact Prophet Muhamad had another idea. For the prophet the Jewish , Christian and Muslim God is one and The Same. Prophet Muhamad simply was his last Prophet as he saw Jesus as prophet before Him as well.
    For thet The Mother of Jesus is a sacred person in Islam as Mother of a Prophet.
    What later Muslims did in theor religion is irelevent. Take as exampel the Christian Faith were God is a God of Love and Forgiveness.
    For Catholics is a God that takes orders from Pope that he can pride Him to put people in Heaven.
    For Protestants God is a God of punishment only.
    Christians in Hesus name killed milions of people but we can not blame eithe Jesus or the Christian Faith.
    The same aplies for Islam. Prophet Muhamad declared a Faith of tollerance but after his Son in Law death we have douzens of diffrenf versions of Islam.
    Take a look in this post of mine , POST PROPHET'S ACHTINAME (how many Muslims know about their Prophet only ORDER AND CURSE)?
    Likewise How many Christians in the western world know that Their God is a God of Love and not a God of punishment?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Anthoniusll,

    Well ole son, if you read your Bible properly you will see that it is in total a message of punishment for sin only deflected by believing that Jesus Christ died on a cross for a certain people that were chosen to be saved for Him. If that were not the case then why did Jesus say, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him."? If God is all love why is it written that He loved Jacob but hated Esau? Why indeed is Jesus Christ coming back to Judge the world if punishment was not a part of it?

  8. #8
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by basics View Post
    Anthoniusll,

    Well ole son, if you read your Bible properly you will see that it is in total a message of punishment for sin only deflected by believing that Jesus Christ died on a cross for a certain people that were chosen to be saved for Him. If that were not the case then why did Jesus say, " No man can come to the Father except by Me and no man can come to Me except the Father draws him."? If God is all love why is it written that He loved Jacob but hated Esau? Why indeed is Jesus Christ coming back to Judge the world if punishment was not a part of it?
    The proble lies on the language each reader uses. I repeat ...Germanic origin languages (German, French, English etc) and others have not the required expansion of interpretation complex meanings. The only 5 languages that have almost equal abillity are:
    Hellenic
    Hindu
    Aramaic (Arabic)
    Farsi (persian)
    Chinese.
    The false interpretation leads to false conclusions. Jesus NEVER said that those that I will aprove they will be saved. In fact he said that its on each human's will to his/her last second of his/her life to be saved or not. God will be there to forgive him/her even in the last breath (the crimminal on the cross example). The false interpretations are the primary source of the thousands of herecies.
    I remember 15 years ago a huge Evangalists demostration in Israel that demanded that Israel should start a nuclear war with Arabs! When a journalist asked one of their leaders he explained "In the Bible God says that we (the evangelists) will enheriatage the earth when all the rest of human races extinged! What is the tool for fast extintion the nuclear war!!! The most fascinating thing was that no one of them realy thought that if Earth has a nuclear war they will fie too! That is what fanatism in all religions does , it deletes reason for human mind! So the next time you will read the Bible make sure that you have learned Hellenistic Greek well. I warn you its a huge task. Even me as a historian that translate 10th century greek language that is the same of the 1st century AD is difficult to understand. Some time ago i posted a video from Mount ATHOS where a american monk said that "its fascinating that we read and we speak the same language Crist spoke , The Saints of te 1st century the 2nd century and 4th century spoke and wrote"! Its all on the false interpretation of languages that had not the deep civilisation background that those i mentioned above can not fully translate the real meanings.
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    I remember 15 years ago a huge Evangalists demostration in Israel that demanded that Israel should start a nuclear war with Arabs! When a journalist asked one of their leaders he explained "In the Bible God says that we (the evangelists) will enheriatage the earth when all the rest of human races extinged! What is the tool for fast extintion the nuclear war!!!
    Do you have a link to a news report about this demonstration?
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    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Anthoniusll,

    May I say that whoever these " evangelists " were they were not Christian nor were they preaching from the Bible, why? If Israel started lobbing nukes at its neighbours Israel itself would become unliveable.

  11. #11

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    I'm pretty sure Anthonius is conflating "evangelism" with "evangelicalism" (i.e. Biblical Christianity).

    In any case, considering that 15 years ago Biblical Christians made up less than 0.1% of Israel's population (or just a few thousand people), I remain skeptical that any "huge demonstration" was ever held by them, much less one that called for a nuclear holocaust, much less one that apparently escaped the attention of every single news agency in the world.
    Last edited by Prodromos; July 18, 2022 at 12:06 AM.
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  12. #12
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Prodromos View Post
    I'm pretty sure Anthonius is conflating "evangelism" with "evangelicalism" (i.e. Biblical Christianity).

    In any case, considering that 15 years ago Biblical Christians made up less than 0.1% of Israel's population (or just a few thousand people), I remain skeptical that any "huge demonstration" was ever held by them, much less one that called for a nuclear holocaust, much less one that apparently escaped the attention of every single news agency in the world.
    You may be right. The last estimation that only in USA they were more than 50 milion ...
    If you want to search about their demostration i would sugest to search Freek TV news broadcasts archives.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    In fact Prophet Muhamad had another idea. For the prophet the Jewish , Christian and Muslim God is one and The Same. Prophet Muhamad simply was his last Prophet as he saw Jesus as prophet before Him as well.
    For thet The Mother of Jesus is a sacred person in Islam as Mother of a Prophet.
    What later Muslims did in theor religion is irelevent. Take as exampel the Christian Faith were God is a God of Love and Forgiveness.
    For Catholics is a God that takes orders from Pope that he can pride Him to put people in Heaven.
    For Protestants God is a God of punishment only.
    Christians in Hesus name killed milions of people but we can not blame eithe Jesus or the Christian Faith.
    The same aplies for Islam. Prophet Muhamad declared a Faith of tollerance but after his Son in Law death we have douzens of diffrenf versions of Islam.
    Take a look in this post of mine , POST PROPHET'S ACHTINAME (how many Muslims know about their Prophet only ORDER AND CURSE)?
    Likewise How many Christians in the western world know that Their God is a God of Love and not a God of punishment?
    Can you tie this in to the topic? The topic is, in simple terms:
    The koran confirms the bible, while (many) muslims (particularly apologists and dawah propagandists) say the bible is corrupted.

  14. #14
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    If Mohammed is indeed the last prophet of God how is it that one of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy in which any person born again of the Holy Spirit even today can prophecy? The main reason that prophecy has become less sure is because Scripture is a finished work covering all the major events that will happen before the Lord comes back to finalise all things. The most prophetic words we have, and they are timeless, are the words given to us by the Lord Jesus Christ meaning that in reality there is no need for anymore except of course if one has a different agenda which Paul calls false. It's not just Islam that has this dilemma.

  15. #15
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Quote Originally Posted by Infidel144 View Post
    Can you tie this in to the topic? The topic is, in simple terms:
    The koran confirms the bible, while (many) muslims (particularly apologists and dawah propagandists) say the bible is corrupted.
    THE Curan indeed confirms the Bible. The issue here is not what half the Muslims believe about ther Bible but what Christians did to show Bible corrupted. Have you ever count how mnay thousands of branches has the Christianity today when after the 1st Ecumanical Council of Nikea and untill 1054AD had only one and everything else was considered Heretic? How many herecies of Christianity created after 1054AD from people that had no knowlege of proper interpretation of Bibles words and meanings? Barbaric former Paganist that became "guardians" of Christianity sent to death milion of people in the name of the Bible!
    1st Example: 1492 fall of Granada. Christians that barely knew how tio write their names forced Jews and Muslims to embrace Christianity and then executed them because they claimed that they saved their souls!
    2nd Example American conquest! The same as above! If that is not a corruption of the Bible by Christians what is? After those examples would you expect Muslims to have different opinion?
    You obviusly are niot Orthodox. As Othodox i inform you that Muslims -before Turkic tribes apear in middle east- respected all Churches , Monasteries , Mink cells(caves) , monks , priests and believers. ALL UNTILL the 1097 the fall of jerusaleem to other former barbaric europeans that had no knowlege about the bible exept what propaganda a priest would say to them!
    The Orthodox Churches, Monasteries, Monk cells are guarded even today by Muslims like the St Catherine Monastery that Beduins guarded and no action against it happened from ISIS yet.
    Even today if a person starts a journey by foot from Constantinople via Libanon, Syria, Egypt, Iraq , IRAN, Afganistan and reach India if he will say he is Junan no harm will come to him.
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  16. #16

    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    No, Anthonius, that is not the issue here. The issue here is essentially what I laid out.
    Something like 6 pages got removed recently for not addressing the topic.
    Can you actually address the topic (The koran confirms the bible, while (many) muslims (particularly apologists and dawah propagandists) say the bible is corrupted.)
    I t does not have to do with Ashtiname or Granada or Isis or anything else.
    Please, stick to the topic.

  17. #17
    basics's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: The Islamic dilemma

    Infidel144,

    I take it that what is confirmed is the Old Testament plus any letters that would make eventually what we call the New Testament since that would have been the preaching made by Christians as well as the belief of the Jews for the Old? Even so, in the 5th century it was accepted that both Old and New was the Bible whereas 2 centuries later along came the Koran to as you say confirm it. So what went wrong that Islam has this dilemma?

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